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UPS763
Topic Author
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 7:00 am

250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Sun Dec 02, 2001 4:27 am

Does all airline traffic have to stay at or under 250 kts when under 10,000 feet?

Matthew
 
aMb
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2001 12:43 am

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Sun Dec 02, 2001 4:38 am

I think 747s are an exception as they are better climbing at 280-290 kts, and ATC allows for this.

I think from watching a Concorde video that they were able to accelerate beyond 250 kts as well.

aMb
 
Guest

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Sun Dec 02, 2001 7:56 am

The simple answer is yes, ALL air traffic in the US must maintain an airspeed of 250 KIAS when operating below 10,000 feet. However, there are a few exceptions. For example, there is a program at DFW where ATC authorizes high speed climbs.
 
timz
Posts: 6581
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Sun Dec 02, 2001 8:36 am

Long-haul flights (say 5000 miles and up) out of any US airport typically request clearance for 270-280 kts just after departure, and it's ordinarily approved. I assume this applies below 10000 ft?
 
Contact_tower
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:05 am

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Sun Dec 02, 2001 9:19 am

In europe it's the same, answer YES!

But offcourse, exceptions is allways possible, and somtimes favourable......
The 250kts "speed" limit is just a way to simplefy approach and departure sequence, thus ending up with less delays in the grand scale!  Smile

Anders
 
Mr.BA
Posts: 3310
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Sun Dec 02, 2001 11:57 am

I would say 250knots below 10,000 feet applies everywhere but I think most airplanes would request up to 280 knots and it is approved most of the time, at least in SIngapore.

alvin
Boeing747 万岁!
 
lapa_saab340
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 8:42 pm

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Sun Dec 02, 2001 2:24 pm

If I'm not mistaken, when the Concorde departs Heathrow it is allowed a maximum speed of 310 knots. Perhaps someone else knows if the same occurs at de Gaulle?
 
Guest

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Sun Dec 02, 2001 2:46 pm

One of the exceptions to the general rule of no airspeeds faster than 250 KIAS below 10,000 feet is that if the minimum safe speed is faster than 250 kts, then the aircraft may be operated at that safe speed. I have no idea what the minimum safe airspeed would be for the 747 (it's dependent upon weight, of course) but I have a pretty good idea that they're being operated at 250 kts also. Remember at the rates of climb that they can achieve, it's only going to take 3 or 4 minutes until they're out of 10 and can "get on down the road." As far as the Concorde goes, I honestly don't know too much about it. I'm still waiting to get enough money to take my dream trip - NYC to London on the QE2 and London back to NYC on Concorde.
 
Top Gun
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 8:13 am

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Sun Dec 02, 2001 3:20 pm

You are all mostly correct.

If you are cleared to any atlitude below 10000 you must slow down to below 250 when hitting 10000 (decending).

If you a cleared to an altitude above 10000 you can go as fast as you want, keeping in mind the Noise procedures.

For example:
You take off in a 767. The SID takes you to 3000. Once cleared to your enroute altitude of FL330 you can climb at 280 if you chose to. Maybe you're tired and want to arrive sooner, you can climb at 300.

ATC would love to get you out of their airspace sooner to make more room for the arrival of other A/C.

Kapeesh?
 
Guest

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Sun Dec 02, 2001 3:37 pm

Maybe that procedure is approved in Canada, but it would be one of the quickest ways I could think of to possibly get violated here in the States. We recently had a simular issue at work. We frequently operate out of airports which are located underneath overlaying Class B airspace. As you know, the maximum allowable airspeed in this type of airspace is 200 KIAS. One of our aircraft, a Gulfstream G-200 requires leaving the flaps and/or leading edge devices extended in order to safely fly at an airspeed 200 KIAS or less and at higher weights, the Gulfstream requires airspeeds of around 220 KIAS to "clean the wing." There was a discussion on this subject recently on the NBAA website. The following is a typical one made by a captain for a major airline: "...If my weight nets a required clean min speed above 250 kts below 10,000' I can accelerate to that speed, period. There is no requirement that you fly with flaps/slats out so you can stay below 250 or 200 kts below the lateral limits of Class B, etc."

I found his comments interesting since I had been flying the Gulfstream with the slats and krugers extended on those occasions when operating below the lateral limits of Class B airspace. I had always assumed that it was necessary to do so to be legal. Just for grins I contacted a good friend of mine who is an FAA inspector. I asked him the following question: "...is it necessary to maintain a configuration (slats and Kruger flaps deployed) that will allow the aircraft to comply with the 200 KIAS speed limit when operating beneath the lateral limits of Class B airspace or is it acceptable to fly the aircraft in the "clean" configuration even though the minimum safe airspeed in the clean configuration is above the 200 KIAS limit?"

He sent me the following reply:

"...The FAR's do not prohibit that operation. Now that I have said that let me explain the finer points about working with ATC and the FAA.
1. If you are at a low altitude and exceed 200 or 250 there is a record made by ATC and ATC may question you. However your flight in question will end up as an
investigation at the FSDO. When you are contacted regarding the "possible fracture" of 91.117 and you tell them what you told me it will probably be closed with no action.

2. You have 2 choices (1) configure the airplane to maintain the speed limits or (2) fly clean at the higher speed.

3. If you maintain speed limits and configure the airplane to do so, no problem end of subject.

4. If you clean the airplane up and accelerate to the speed required be absolutely positive you tell ATC on each frequency you operate on the reasons for exceeding the speed limits while in the airspace discussed in 91.117. Remember ATC spaces aircraft distances based on speed. This should preclude a FSDO investigation.

If you read 91.117(d) it does not specify the aircraft configuration. All it says is "...any particular operation..."

The decision is yours. Hope this helps."


There you have it. The answer to the question is both yes and no, depending on how badly you want to get "up close and personal" with an FAA inspector.


 
Woodreau
Posts: 2127
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Mon Dec 03, 2001 1:05 am

FAR 91.117 is the rule responsible for this 250kts under 10,000ft fracas (in the US)...

My interpretation is that as long as you get ATC concurrence you can exceed 250 knots under 10,000ft. Otherwise no you can't exceed 250 knots or 200 knots, whichever applies.

Cheers  Smile
Woodreau / KMVL


"91.117 Aircraft Speed

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000ft MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots.

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots. This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots.

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed."

Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
seagull
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 5:58 pm

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Mon Dec 03, 2001 1:17 am

In the U.S. the CFR (FAR) 91.117 applies to all operations in domestic airspace. The rules in other countries vary. ATC cannot waive any of the requirements under the regulation. ATC is NOT "the Administrator"!

Under sub-paragraph (d) many heavy jets do require faster speeds, these include the 747s, although I think that the MD-11 has the highest min maneuver speed of all the civi jets (Concorde excluded) of 289kts when at max weight. Aircraft requiring these higher speeds do not need to request it, but many pilots will advise ATC as a courtesy.
 
Contact_tower
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:05 am

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Mon Dec 03, 2001 1:39 am

In Europe ATC IS "the administrator" under eurocontrol rules!  Smile
 
timz
Posts: 6581
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

Seagull?

Mon Dec 03, 2001 8:08 am

Sounds like you're saying that if a heavy is heavy enough to need some flap to maintain 250 kts, then maintaining 250 kt to 10000 is unsafe. Is it actually unsafe to climb unclean?
 
Woodreau
Posts: 2127
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

"Administrator" Defined

Mon Dec 03, 2001 9:46 am

Well we need to go to FAR Part 1

where

"1.1 General Definitions

'Administrator' means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned."

So my take is that ATC can authorize deviations to 91.117 as the "Administrator."

Cheers  Smile
Woodreau / KMVL
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
Guest

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Mon Dec 03, 2001 10:34 am

Seagull is absolutely correct. ATC is NOT the "Administrator" and controllers can not authorize diviations. As I mentioned in a previous post, there are ppecific locations where the Administrator has authorized general exceptions, take DFW for example. DFW controllers can and do ask you to pick up the speed. Other exemptions are to accomodate minimum safe airspeeds that happen to fall outside of the limits. Finally there are operational necessity & emergencies that allow you to deviate. Personally, I've deviated from the rule many times - back in the mid-80's I was a Life Flight pilot flying Citations and MU-2 air ambulances. When the flight nurse or physician told us to "step on it" that's exactly what we did. We just told ATC that we needed to keep our speed up. We'd keep the speed at the barber pole until it was necessary to start slowing down for landing. All the FISDO guys wanted from us was the usual deviation letter. I bet I filled a couple of dozen of those forms over a 3-year period. As I mentioned in my last post on this subject, my FAA buddy gave me the FAA's interpretation of this issue. It's best to follow their advise unless you have a burning desire to spend some "guality time" with one of their inspectors.
 
RyDawg82
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:30 am

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Mon Dec 03, 2001 12:21 pm

How does this work in lets say Denver....You are already half way to the limit, does it just remain 10,000 ft or do they raise the mark?
Ry
 
Guest

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Mon Dec 03, 2001 12:37 pm

It's 10,000 feet MSL and it remains the same.
 
ywg_jy
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2001 2:13 am

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Mon Dec 03, 2001 12:49 pm

As for the rules in Canada:

Airspeed Limitations
(1) No person shall operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet ASL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots.

(2) No person shall operate an aircraft below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled airport at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.

(3) Notwithstanding subsections (1) and (2), a person may operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed greater than the airspeeds referred to in subsections (1) and (2) where the aircraft is being operated on departure or in accordance with a special flight operations certificate.

(4) Where the minimum safe speed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the speed referred to in subsection (1) or (2), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe speed.

This is taken from the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARS) available on-line at: http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/regserv/carac/CARS/html_e/doc/nav-20.htm



 
seagull
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 5:58 pm

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Mon Dec 03, 2001 1:47 pm

As I stated in my previous post, the regs I cited applied to U.S. domestic airspace only. I am aware of the different rules in other parts of the world, where controllers have more discretion, but such is NOT the case in the U.S., period. Don't believe me, take it up with the FAA Chief Counsel or manager of Air Traffic if you want to, I don't care. FSDO may or may not be able to answer the question, but any answer they give is not legally binding anyway (meaning that if the Chief Counsel disagrees, the Chief Counsel wins, every time).

The intent of 14 CFR 91.117 is not to force heavy jets to leave flaps/slats out to climb. We are expected to clean up and fly at clean MMS until 10000'. You can take that up with the Chief Counsel in Washington D.C. as well if you are so inclined.
 
twr75
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 1:31 pm

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Mon Dec 03, 2001 2:05 pm

There is the same 250 under 10,000 limit here in Australia, but controllers regularly cancel it for sequencing or due to pilot requests.
Like a seagull on the MCG of life...
 
Skystar
Posts: 1339
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2000 3:58 pm

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Mon Dec 03, 2001 2:08 pm

I thought the maximum allowed speed, when not 250kias was roughly V2+100 (min clean speed).

It makes no sense flying heavy airliners, IMHO, with flaps down below 250kias because there's increased aerodynamic noise, and climb performance is impeded - increasing noise.

Cheers,

Justin
 
Guest

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Mon Dec 03, 2001 2:11 pm

Seagull makes a very valuable point. It makes absolutely no difference what they say at your local FSDO. They can be and often are overruled and guess who loses when the FISDO says that you can do something and Oaklahoma City and/or Washington says you should never have done it? You'll lose everytime. One of the biggest frustrations in trying to work with the feds is to try and get firm commitments or intreptations out of them. Dang near impossible. I doubt if you could get them to put in writing that the sun usually rises in the east and normally sets in the west.
 
seagull
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 5:58 pm

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Mon Dec 03, 2001 2:40 pm

Just to clarify, Oklahoma City does not make rulings, FAA is run from Washington D.C., all legal interps come from inside the Beltway.
 
Guest

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Mon Dec 03, 2001 2:52 pm

I knew that.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Wed Dec 05, 2001 2:55 am

Clearances are frequently given to exceed the 250kt speed limit below 10,000 MSL in the IAH class B as part of a study the FAA is doing to "increase capacity".
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 10:48 am

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:09 am


You can exceed 250 Kts below FL100 if your aircraft's minimum maneuvering speed (clean) is more than that.

Our ATC's have very little leeway in allowing the 250 knot rule to be broken. That's pretty much the only exception.

If you're an Air-Ambulance, that's the other one I can think of, you can keep your speed all the way up to the barber pole until the last minute.

Other countries have more liberties in assigning airspeed.

-Kamarov, Andrea V.

 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Wed Dec 05, 2001 7:29 am

So are you disputing the experiment @ IAH?
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Wed Dec 05, 2001 11:29 am

Some may be interested in what happens when aircraft has a birdstrike at low level--
In 1985 at Khartoum, Sudan an Ethiopian Airlines B727 struck an (estimated) 10 pound buzzard at 330 knots IAS at 4000 AGL.
The buzzard went thru:
The radome,
The forward pressure bulkhead,
Broke the First Officers left leg,
Continued thru the flight deck door...
and ended up in the First Class lounge.

I personally viewed the aircraft and can state without doubt that the crew were very lucky. It was NOT a pretty sight.
For those that believe in high speed below 10,000, beware, there are BIG birds out there.

Fly safe!
 
Guest

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Wed Dec 05, 2001 2:50 pm

411A,
I was in Scottsdale today, what a rainy day. This issue with birdstrikes is why I personally don't like going fast down low. I've had more than one experience with geese and it wasn't pretty.
 
EHAM06
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 6:17 pm

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Wed Dec 05, 2001 7:24 pm

All the aircraft under FL100 have a maximum speed of 250knt. However there are some exceptions, pilots can asked for special permission to go faster than 250knt
 
RJ
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:28 am

RE: 250 Kts Under 10,000 Ft

Thu Dec 06, 2001 1:18 am


Essential Power,

I have flown out of IAH on numerous occasions and you are correct. You can exceed 250KIAS in IAH's Class B airspace. It is part of a FAA "test"

RJ

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