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Bruce
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What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 3:49 am

This scenerio has been the stuff of action movies..but what if....... in real life, the 2 person flight crew was disabled (maybe passengers overtake some hijackers like on flt93) and they had to radio the control center. Would controllers on the ground be able to talk someone who has never flown a plane or taken lessons thru a landing? Can a heavy jet be safely landed by an untrained person?

I wonder if they would just tell the passenger-pilot what numbers to enter in the FMS and do a full auto-land. i don't think you can do a full auto-land without any pilot input anyway because of all the turns required to line up and altitude/speed changes as requested by ATC.

What do you think the most difficult part of flying would be for a passenger-pilot to quickly learn? I'd think manual control of the plane (pitch,yaw, etc) but they'd probably tell him to use autopilot anyway. Can controllers on the ground read most of the plane's instruments thru signal sent from the plane?

Finally, how many of you non-pilots would step up to the challenge if you were on a plane with a disabled crew and the flight attendants were asking for people who know how to fly? (assume there were no deadheading or non-revving pilots among the passengers).


bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
Duncan
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 4:07 am

I'm sure there are thousands of FS2000/FS2002 jockeys out there who'd give their right arm for that kind of heroic opportunity.  Innocent

DD
 
wietse
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 4:12 am

I allready said this in the civ forum some time ago and got absolutely bashed by it. I am by no means a stupid person, I am very conscious of what is and what isn't possible.





I believe I can land a 737 NG in good weather.

 Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!



There, I said it, come on bash me, but this is how I feel.

I know quite a lot of aviation and how airplanes work.

Wietse
Wietse de Graaf
 
flight152
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 4:44 am

I believe I can land a 737 NG in good weather.

As said thousands of times, a simple flight simulator does not even introduce you to everything there is to know. Figuring you have had no real flight experence, it would be very unlikley that you would be able to do this.

 
UPS763
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:18 am

I wouldnt want to be on that plane. JK

Seriously though, I believe that a licensed pilot would be able to at least get the aircraft on the ground in one piece. But the approach speed of commercial airliners is close to the Vne on small props so that would be an adjustment. As for the flight simmers, I dont think they would have a chance. Since switching to helicopters some years ago I havent flown a plane in a while so I dont think I would be able to, it would be ugly!

Matt
 
wietse
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:54 am

hahahahaha! See! I am getting bashed again, you guys really live up to my expectations! What is it with you guys? Feeling threatened someone invades the little "I can land a plane world" ?

ps where did you get the knowledge i don't have any flight experience?

W
Wietse de Graaf
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 6:14 am

Well, let's go over some concepts:


-A properly trimmed plane can make the world of difference in control
-When maintaining a certain airspeed,
-airspeed=pitch
-altitude=power
-The mixture must be at a certain point to guarantee the engine doesn't burn or flood
-The plane must be in coordinated flight in order to keep the plane from going into a spin in case of stall

...and that's just touching on some basics. Now would just anyone without prior training have any clue what any of that means, or would they just jerk the controls praying for luck? Sorry, that's just the bleak truth of the matter.
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
victech
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 6:34 am

Stupid question--if the plane had CAT III autoland capabilities, would the outcome be different?
 
flyf15
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 6:37 am

Victech, probably not.

I'm an instrument rated pilot and I can state for a fact that I wouldn't be able to land an airliner if I had to. 1% or smaller chance it would happen. And...thats with knowing how to talk to ATC, how to fly an aircraft, how approaches work, how to read the instruments, etc.

In short, if a passenger has to land the plane you're on and he's not a pilot, kiss your ass goodbye.
 
SkyGuy11
Posts: 532
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 7:00 am

Wow how many times does this question get asked!?

Considering the differences between the Katana and the Cessna 172 make it difficult to even switch between those two aircraft, there's no way anyone but a 'real life airline pilot' can land an airliner! Jeeze.

I mean comon. I am not only a 'real' pilot but I fly various different airplanes, like most pilots do. Considering they are all just about the same size and power, shouldn't it be easy to switch?! I assure you there isn't a pilot out there who hasn't had some kind of memory lapse or felt somewhat foreign when switching between two familiar models. I'm talking about experienced pilots here. Now you're asking about a passenger with no prior flight experience. That person would have no chance. Even someone with FS2002 will have no chance. People who play FS2002 will obviously not agree with me because they 'want' to be able to land it but they are flat out wrong. Sorry.
.
 
concorde1518
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 8:03 am

This comes up about once a month...

 Smile
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 8:58 am

Please do a search and look up the very recent thread on this topic; it has been beaten to a bloody pulp over and over again. The general consensus was, with input from very experienced airline instructor types and CFIs, that a novice would go augering in from high altitude as would a flightsimmer. The average PP would die more slowly and an experienced Commercial/instrument type with no jet time would die in the vicinity of the airport. This was backed up by actual research in full motion simulators.
 
PPGMD
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:18 am

*bands head on keyboard*

"hdf;uiogogifogadsoijiagoij;gdsajlkdsajkjgsalk"

Ok no where was I, oh yeah my response:
Short answer: "Ummm... no."

The long answer has been beaten to death.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Rick767
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:17 am

SSTjumbo

airspeed=pitch
altitude=power


Sorry but that's not how it works on airliners. Another of the reasons a C152 pilot would be no good in a B757. Airspeed = POWER, Altitude = PITCH.

Especially true during approach and landing.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
Guest

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:23 am

Yes - this subject comes back once a month, on schedule...
So, let's go for it again...
Doris Day, are you ready to fly...?
xxx
First point -
Yes ANYBODY could program (not fly) any airliner that is equipped with an autoland system, provided the "hero" enters the flight deck, does not disconnect the autopilot while in cruise, and last, has sufficient knowledge to take a microphone and... transmit a MAYDAY on the radio...
xxx
Second point -
If the airplane is out of the range of that VHF station, the "hero" might be out of luck, unless he knows maybe to switch to 121.5, which is unlikely... who would he talk to, to get his "first lesson"...
xxx
Third point -
Let's assume that the "hero" has established communications, and a knowledgeable person instructs him what to do, indeed, he might be able to program the autopilot (as instructed) to bring the airplane into a descent, approach, and landing with ILS and long runway, BECAUSE THERE IS NO ACTUAL FLYING INVOLVED (merely positioning switches and numbers on dials) as the flight controls are NEVER HANDLED in the procedure... autoland, autothrottles and autobrakes would do the job, you would be just a spectator, until a full stop on the centeline, Mr. Hero...
xxx
Fourth point -
Those of you who impress theirselves with so called desktop simulators, do not imagine that you are a step ahead of others, the only thing is you may be able to "recognize some dials" and "switches"... nothing more than that...
xxx
Fifth point -
I fly a rather ancient type of 747, with 1970-1980s technology, no FMS and sophisticated electronics, the aircraft is fully capable of ILS autoland, to a full stop... airplane certificated to Cat IIIa but has full Cat IIIb capability...
xxx
I own a little L-21C, for fun flying and teaching my 13 years old boy to fly, he has logged about 100 hours with me, earlier this year, I took him to the 747 simulator with me, as I was teaching recurrent training, and took him to every training sessions in the simulator, and made him fly an approach... HE DID NOT FLY, nor handled flight controls - he merely positioned the switches as instructed, and "George", the autopilot, landed the simulator for him, to his own surprise...
xxx
Now if he (or you) disconnect the autopilot and attempt to handle the plane by hand, we should be ready for a disaster movie...
 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
(s) Skipper

I have a P.S. here for SSTjumbo -
In a jet, pitch is altitude, power is speed, all is - coordinated flight because of yaw dampers, and I still try to find where the "mixture" is - would it be in the first class galleys, where they mix before takeoff Martinis...?
xxxx
I also have to find a curriculum on spin recoveries for 747s... I think my 747 FTM flight training manual has that page missing... do we do that with carburetor heat ON or OFF...?

Would some of you friends keep a copy of this for next month's WHAT IF PILOTS DIE...
 
cmchardyfl
Posts: 173
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:45 am

Hi Guys,

I agree with the airline pilots on this one. I have a PPL/Night/IMC and 250 hours under my belt so far and that would most probably not enable me to land a commercial jet if I had to. Fair enough I can now read approach plates, charts, talk to ATC, understand the systems of a modern airliner etc, etc...however that does not give me the skill to land an airliner.

I can sum this up by talking about my experiences having a go in a full motion A330 simulator. My friend went first, also a competent small aircraft pilot and he slammed the tail into the ground before he even got in the air!!!! We both managed to make reasonably 'fair' circuits and landings, however that was with close instruction and guidance by an A330 training captain! Not to mention absolutely perfect weather contitions.

A PASSENGER having to give it a go. Very, very slim chance of a successful outcome.

Cheers

Chris
 
jhooper
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:57 am

In a fully loaded airliner, I doubt that there wouldn't be someone onboard who is qualified. Maybe not necessarily qualified in type but could get the plane down in one piece.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
dispatcher
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 12:09 pm

For what it is worth I have experience only in small single engine aircraft and pc flight simulators. I landed the company full motion 727 sim on the first try, even stayed on the runway! Pitch for speed, power for altitude, works everytime. Now maybe there is a lot of difference in the sim and the real thing, but then again, what would be the purpose.
 
shaun3000
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 12:34 pm

pitch affects speed and power affects altitude to some extent in every airplane. However, this is most pronounced in small, GA airplanes. When you get to the big jets, yes, power will make you go up a little but it will also make you go much MUCH faster. Pitch will slow you down or speed you up, a little, but it will also make you gain or lose a LOT of altitude.

This is just a guess but the 727 in the landing config. may not follow this quite as well as other airliners since, when at full flaps, it produces SO MUCH drag.
 
jhooper
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 12:56 pm


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © AirNikon



I think the real question that needs to be asked is:

Could an airline captain handle one of these!?!?!
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 1:17 pm

I have to agree with the Skipper and others. And Weitse... oh, nevermind.

Passenger only: death
Flight simmer: death
Private pilot: death
Comm/inst, light aircraft only: probable death
Light jet pilot: probable survival
Other airline pilot with or w/o jet time: everyone walks away, maybe limping some
Other pilot with time in type, working alone: nobody even notices there was a problem, pilot maybe sweats some

I got a chance to fly full motion B-737 and B-727 sims when I had about 400 hrs (CFI, comm, inst), and I was able to land them. However, I had the benefit of good coaching and a qualified individual to configure the aircraft on profile and on speed. I'm not the world's best pilot, but I'm a long way from the bottom. But still, if I'd been working alone for real, no way, we'd all have died.

You can be an absolute ace on procedures and technical know-how, but without the benefit of actually having flown a large airplane, or any airplane, any flight simmer will die trying. Planes just don't handle like home computers. Not to belabor the obvious, but... duh.
 
Jeff G
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 1:19 pm

Jhooper,

Uh, maybe. With a decent CFI the first few times. With someone else paying hull insurance. I'm not sure what rudders do with all engines running.  Smile
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6796
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 3:15 pm

Skipper and the boys here are correct in that this is a double post of sorts.

please see the following thread.

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/47161/6/

Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1960
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 6:57 pm

This topic comes up over and over.

I have meanwhile flown about 50 hours in an IFR traininer (some hi-performance aircraft cockpit of known type, but not full motion) and a couple of hours in B737 full flight simulators.
I'm an aerospace student with quite detailed knowledge about aircraft performance and handling.

I think (if you leave out a slight panic-effect) I am capable of doing ONE of the following:
1) Find my way from A to B in an aircraft equipped only with VOR and/or NDBs (if someone else flies and I have the maps) and finally 'find' a localizer.
2) Keep the aircraft straight-and-level and try to get help.
3) Using the FMC and George to maybe get the plane somewhere near a runway.

But really land the airplane? The hell, no.

Definition: Landing == Bringing the aircraft onto the ground and to a full stop in such a way that the people are not injured and the plane is usable.

Before my studies and the sims (so just with PC simulators). Yes, I would have been able to prevent the plane from crashing into a city, but no more.

SailorOrion.
 
mandala499
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 7:03 pm

Read the link there...
I'm not a pilot, but got 5 hours of fun on a 3 axis CatB sim for the 737-200. Fun, and despite over 500 hrs of jet time (without the time compression) on an FS, with over about 200hrs (actual) on the 734 in FS95/98/2000/2002... that night was a different ball game altogether.

Simmers know roll in FS... good.
Simmers know yaw in FS... better than nothing
Simmers know pitch in FS... Very little benefit until the final phases of the flight.

If you're a simmer, and there's "Autoland" or "Autoapproach" in a real plane you fly (by a one in a million chance), USE IT!

I managed to hand fly the 732 to landing, but it's still a miracle the first time round. Trying to maintain straight flight is easy, maintaining LEVEL flight is VERY hard. (use A/P, save yourself the hassle).

To extend 747Skipper's 4th point, I must say, being a simmer makes you ahead of others only in being able to identify the dials, and the basic principles... Nothing about handling. It's like trying to send an bicycle rider to drive a 40ft container truck.

Again, on Skipper's 4th point... Even if you can recognise the dials, in the cockpit, they're not nicely displayed in front of you on a screen. Your eyes need to scan around the panel, and look out... each time changing the focus in your eyes... it can be disorienting for some...

Now to more fun things... Would I volunteer to take over if both pilots are dead and there's no pilot? YES ! Would I succeed ? DON'T KNOW... Just don't try and be smart, and treat the challenge with respect... Read the link mentioned above for a better insight...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
PH-BFA
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 7:18 pm

I think it is possible to land a big plane. I have to agree with Wietse. I have flown a full-flight simulator of a Boeing 747-4 and I was even able to land it on Kai tak(of course not a perfect landing, but still) The only problem is that you don´t know the landingspeeds and flapspeeds(when I flew the simulator a real pilot did the engines). but if you get the information about the landingspeeds etc. I think a quite experienced flightsimmer(who knows where the landinggear is etc and who has quite some hours on flightsim) can land an commercial airplane in good weather conditions with help from the ground. For sure not a perfect landing or so, but I think it is possible to get the aircraft on the ground in one piece.

PH-BFA
 
sudden
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 8:01 pm

This is no disrespect to the people that say they can land an A/C,
but I know a tech, and ones asked him when I was sitting in the cockpit with him during towing to the hangar, if he would be able to fly the plane (752).

His answer was:
"I would sure be able to take off and program the A/P, but to land, NO WAY!!! The pilots that do this every day are doing years of training for a good reason."

I have big respect for that answer, and do take his word for it.
I can say that I think I have some experience when it comes to A/C's, and would be more3 then delighted to try to land in a SIM, but for real, no thanks.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
Skystar
Posts: 1339
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 8:30 pm

I don't know what category I fit into, because I'm a student pilot, and a flightsimmer.

I have landed several jets in airline simulators before, and I can certainly attest that they are quite a different kettle of fish compared to your flightsim - and for this reason, I have found plenty of flightsim models very inaccurate. But, I was able to land them in what were quite favourable conditions.

I don't think it's totally impossible that a non airline pilot could land an aircraft. Granted there would be some "on the day" luck needed. But, considering what I have read in many flightsimming forums, I probably would have to agree that most flightsimmers would not be able to land the aircraft successfully - and I try to say so without sounding arrogant. Some of the actions "prescribed" by some truly beggar belief, and I remember the uproar I caused when I reviewed a Project Freeware 737-300 years back.

Certainly, I'd be really worried if it was someone landing a CRJ. They are tough little buggers to fly, and if you've watched one land, you'll understand.

Cheers,

Justin
 
wietse
Posts: 3630
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 12:49 am

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:17 pm

I am very sorry I intruded you authority with an feeling I have Jeff G.

Please forgive me.....

W
Wietse de Graaf
 
broke
Posts: 1299
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RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:32 pm

I've flown DC-9, 727, A-300, and L-1011 flight simulators. Crashed wonderfully in everyone. The only big airplane that I have flown is the L-188 Electra; except for the lack of feel that you have in a light airplane, it was similar and that I landed OK on 3 occasions. The jets are different, you fly at a constant attitude throughout the approach right to the landing, if you do it correctly.
Props, you point at the runway and flair on the final approach and touchdown.
I don't think a computer flight simulator gives you enough feel to land a jet unless God is with you.
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:36 pm

I can't fly those bloody PC flight simulators to save my life. Crash every time! It's a different ball game in the real thing folks...
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:56 am

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:03 pm

Wietse,

I took no offense. It's not personal. You just don't know what you don't know.
 
wietse
Posts: 3630
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 12:49 am

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:39 pm

Allright Jeff! I just hope sometime I get into a real cockpit, be it a simulator or not and see for myself!

Wietse
Wietse de Graaf
 
Guest

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 12:25 am

As usual, 30E summed up things very well with poston this thread. This topic comes up repeatedly; but I have to admit that I've wondered this myself - could I land something like a 747 or C-5A if...

(Hey, let me have my dream - the ONLY regret that I have about leaving the airlines for a corporate career is that I won't be able to fly a 747. As far as airline equipment goes, nothing else cuts it for me.) I'd have to defer to Skipper for his opinion, but I imaagine that for someone with my experience level I'd have a pretty good chance of having a successful outcome.

When it comes to non-pilots and even highly experienced piston or turboprop pilots being able to pull it off. FORGET IT ! ! ! Most jets are very pitch sensitive until you get used to the pressures required to fly them. Handing over the controls of a bizjet at say FL410 to an experienced propeller-driven pilot will almost invariably result in a wild PIO (pilot induced oscellation) in the pitch mode which would continue until the airplane either broke up or the airplane contacted the ground. While checking out experienced piston pilots (some with well over 4,000 hours TT) in their first jet, I've had to get on the controls on several occasions to keep them from turning the jet into a lawn dart. This was after they had successfully completed a simulator training course in the airplane that we were flying. The fact is that at typical cruise altitudes, each degree of pitch change results in a climb or descent equal to 1000 times the indicated Mach. In other words, if you are cruising at .85 Mach, each one degree of pitch change would result in a rate of climb or descent of 850 fpm! You see that it wouldn't take a whole lot to get a pretty wild ride going. We fly these things using pitch changes measured in fractions of a degree, or at least you do if you want to keep the boss happy. (I've been with more than one rookie who tried to "float" the boss.) Fortunately, at lower altitudes, things mellow out considerably; but the pitch response can still be pretty touchy. Most new jet pilots catch on pretty quickly (50 to 100 hours in the airplane) and it ceases to be an issue.

Jetguy
 
Airbus_A340
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2000 8:41 pm

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 12:48 am

This is rather an interesting topic. I'm 17 and have an ambition to become a pilot and fly microsoft flight simulator with detailed Boeing and Airbus panels that come with complex instructions, it has most certainly helped me with my recent simulator sessions.

To be honest, it is not all that easy, it gets busy in the cockpit...I was on an Airbus A320 and 777 D-class simulator, they were great fun and I was able to make 5 safe landings in both sims. Ofcourse this was with the basics, no ATC, but maintaining speed- (managed by the Auto-throttle) and using the right amount of trim (Boeing) was all rather simple, those panels in Microsoft flight sim DO help with the IFR flying, but most certainly not for the feel. Being told how to use basics helps you a hell of a lot, and if I could make 5 landings, although hard, but safely. If there was a choice between crashing and a ametuer landing a Boeing or Airbus, I would be up for chance of trying to land the aircraft. I don't want to be a hero, but I would take the chance if there was that choice.

Trevor
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1411
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:03 am

Try playing flightsim games with a negative 1G in your chair and your eyeballs floating up around your hairline followed by a positive 2Gs that puts your chin around the area of your belt buckle accompanied by an acceleration to an overspeed at .95 Mach and then a decelleration to near stall speed while trying to maintain an instrument scan, recover from an unusual attitude and enter data into a Flight Management computer. Oh, it would be good if you maintained bug speed plus or minus two knots, after you figure out what bug speed should be.

Better put a wastebasket near your computer desk.

Simply putting one's head down to read a map and then back up to scan the panel can give novice pilots vertigo and even experienced VMC pilots who go under the hood in intitial instrument training can easily succumb to the "leans."
 
bragi
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun May 27, 2001 5:17 am

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:07 am

I just hope that I´ll never be on an airplane where a normal passenger or a flightsimmer is considered the best option to get it back on the ground!
Don´t underestimate how difficult flying is, especially a giant airliner.
Muhammad Ali: "Superman don’t need no seat belt." Flight Attendant: "Superman don’t need no airplane, either."
 
godbless
Posts: 2681
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2000 5:26 am

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:38 am

I could land a plane... The question is if I can land it so that it can leave for the next flight again an hour later...

My dad (never flown a plane before) managed to land a AA MD-11 at ORD back in 1995... We also landed the plane on an aircraft-carrier but the main landing gear slammed against the edge of the ship...
Well it was a simulator in Dallas where we flew in.... it's good to have friends that are pilots for airlines with their own simulators  Wink/being sarcastic

Max
 
FredT
Posts: 2166
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 9:51 pm

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:47 am

Statistical evidence from actual tests in FFSs indicate that your average aero engineer with (back then) no real-life flying experience can indeed land airliners (737, SF34) even when there's wake turbulence, minor windshear and blown tires on landing. When an engine seizes as power is applied to go around, it all goes to hell in a handbasket though.  Big grin

Whaddyamean one person is not a sufficient cross-section of the statistical population? Big grin

The same tests also indicated that a 737-500 will sideslip just fine if you mess up your runway alignment...

Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
Darius
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 7:21 pm

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:25 am

Wietse, want to have a go at it in a real C172 and see for yourself?  Smile

Handling the C172 has to be a lot easier than one of the big ones...

Darius
 
fritzi
Posts: 2598
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 2:34 am

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:08 am

I have hundreds of hours in MSFS and before the summer, I used to think that I would be able to land a, say 737, without crashing. But then when I had my first flying lessen in July in a C185F, I realized that FS was not that much help as I thought. FS got me to learn certain limits and all the instruments and radio´s and such things, but it didn´t teach me to fly a real aircraft. Keeping the 185 at level flight and speed was not "that" hard but everything else was waaay harder. Coordinating turns gave you more to think about than just turning and tilting a joystick like you do in FS. I almost freaked out when I saw the splash from floats of the aircraft when I landed. In FS it would have been a soft landing but in reality it was about 300 ft/min and that scares the $hit out of one in such a small airplane . It was so different to FS. Now today I know how to fly a 185 in good weather conditions but if you put me in the cockpit of a small Fokker 70 and tell me to land it, I would probably be able to get it close to the airport and crash land it on a field with hopefully a few survivors.

A message to all the stubborn FS pilots out there:
KNOWING HOW TO FLY A 747 IN FLIGHT SIMULATOR WILL NOT GIVE YOU THE "KNOWLEDGE" OF FLYING A SMALL CESSNA IN REALITY.
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:35 am

I'd go even farther to say that the more Flight Sim 2002 (or whatever) experience you have, the faster you'd kill yourself. If any of you simmers are out in Denver sometime, I'll take you up in a 172 or something...if you can even get it near the airport without turning me white as a ghost, I'll buy you a drink afterwards.  Big thumbs up
 
wietse
Posts: 3630
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 12:49 am

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:40 am

D, did it once  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Not the landing though, would be neat!
I envy you now that you are in the KLS!

Wietse
Wietse de Graaf
 
flight152
Posts: 3509
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:42 am

Pilots don't get paid almost 4th highest in the country for nothing. If every loser on this website could land a 747, as some claim, there would be a lot more commerical pilots running around with a labtop with flight simulator on it. lol
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 5:31 am

People, give it up, if you're not a pilot, you are going to crash. If you are a private pilot, you are going to crash. If you are an instrument rated private pilot, you are going to crash. If you are an instrument rated commercial pilot who does not fly jets, you are going to crash. It is THAT simple. I'll prove it to you if you come fly with me (you pay for the plane and my services, non-pilots only, I don't have access to heavy jets so a pilot would get nothing out of it).
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
wietse
Posts: 3630
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 12:49 am

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 5:43 am

Flight152, a bit more subtle choice of words is in place here....

=========================================

every loser on this website

Wietse de Graaf
 
ExitRow
Posts: 1630
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:13 am

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 7:08 am

I kick ass at the game RISK.

I bet I could take on Germany army and win...

 
lapa_saab340
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 8:42 pm

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 7:55 am

Well...I've won races on my PC Formula 1 simulator...so I guess Michael Schumacher better watch out...!

No offense to those who know deep inside they could do it, but I would listen to the professionals who actually do this for a living. Even if you managed some decent landings in a real simulator, it is one thing to be sitting on the ground with someone coaching you, and another to be in the air, being very aware that your life is on the line. Somehow the ground looks a lot more solid than in the simulator...  Smile

If all pilots aboard were to be incapacitated, I'd be more worried about the ensuing fight between all flight simmers on board that would want to have their shot at being heroes...!

 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 10:00 am

if you're not a pilot, you are going to crash. If you are a private pilot, you are going to crash. If you are an instrument rated private pilot, you are going to crash. If you are an instrument rated commercial pilot who does not fly jets, you are going to crash. It is THAT simple. I'll prove it to you if you come fly with me


Ralgha,

I'd say your theory is probably almost 100% correct, but if you don't have access to a heavy jet, then how do you intend to prove that non-jet pilots couldn't land one?
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
shaun3000
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:10 pm

RE: What If A Passenger Had To Land?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:32 pm

I believe he intends to prove that a non-pilot can't land a light aircraft. Depending on what kind, that may or may not be true. In my opinion, (and I'm a pilot, I'm not just taking a stab in the dark, here) an avid flight simmer could very easily land a Cessna 172. Might not be the prettiest landing in the world, but they could definitely get it on the ground in one piece, possibly keeping it airworthy at the same time.

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