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BR715-A1-30
Topic Author
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Sun May 04, 2003 1:59 pm


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Photo © Fernando Gomes

Geez... Rude is right.



What is the deal with all of this smoke? And they say the ERJ is fuel efficient, and clean. Pschyeah. And I am James Dean.
Puhdiddle
 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Sun May 04, 2003 2:25 pm

Probably hasn't been started in awhile.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
Guest

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Sun May 04, 2003 2:47 pm

My guess is that he had the mixture "full rich".  Innocent
 
I LOVE EWR
Posts: 803
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Sun May 04, 2003 2:51 pm

The plane had a bad case of Gas.
 
sllevin
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Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Sun May 04, 2003 3:39 pm

It's unburned fuel during a start. There's not enough air being fed into the hot section and the mixture is, in a sense, "too rich."

Steve
 
E1FAIL
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Sun May 04, 2003 3:51 pm

Typical cold day start.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Mon May 05, 2003 2:00 am

Combustion is only efficient when the engine is at steady state, ie idle power or greater...On hotter days, the NOx and other emissions are still there, just not visable.
 
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IHadAPheo
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Mon May 05, 2003 10:54 am

I also have to agree with "cold day" start being the cause of the excess smoke, this is much like a car on a cold day will "smoke" much more than on a warm day when it is first started, but when the "engine warms up" the smoke is greatly diminished so the efect on an aircraft should be similar.

Yours,
IHadAPheo+anMI
Pray hard but pray with care For the tears that you are crying now Are just your answered prayers
 
BA
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Tue May 06, 2003 12:42 pm

Automobiles smoke sometimes during start-up in cold weather because the oil is very thick and and clunky which doesn't provide a good lubricant and thus the engine doesn't start-up efficiently and actually takes longer to start-up.

Is this really the same with with turbofans on aircraft?

That shot really makes the ERJ-145 look like a clunker!

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
sudden
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Tue May 06, 2003 5:50 pm

As it is in January, and the A/C have probably been de-iced, I would say that deicing fluid is helping out to create the smoke as well.

Aim for the sky.
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
Guest

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Tue May 06, 2003 8:51 pm

I don't buy the cold morning start thing. I've seen 100's of cold morning starts without the smoke and I've seen a lot of smokey starts on warm days. My guess is that the engine has some unburned fuel in the combustion chamber from a recent flight which hasn't had time to dissapate. The crew is starting the engines with some wind up the tailpipe (see the way the smoke is "piled up") and as Slleven stated, it's just unburned fuel smoking. As Essentialpowr said, combustion is only efficient when the engine is at steady state, ie idle power or greater. As the airflow, through the engine, is increased and the excess fuel is eliminated the smoke goes away. That's my guess. Any engine guys out there?
 
erj-145mech
Posts: 305
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Wed May 07, 2003 6:36 am

The smoke on start IS characteristic of a cold start on the Rolls-Royce AE3007A series engines. It has to do with the cold (more dense) air, the T2 probe location, the P2 probe location, the FPMU, the start schedule of the FADEC, the age (condition) of the fuel nozzles and the age (condition) of the igniter plugs. Its not really uncommon when the temps are below -5C.

Dave
QC Inspector
Continental Express
 
E1FAIL
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:36 am

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Fri May 09, 2003 2:02 am

That smoke is almost guaranteed on the first start of the day in the winter. It does seem to help quite a bit to select the ignition "on". Are you guys having problems with the CABV's ERJ?
 
BeltwayBandit
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Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:25 am

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Fri May 09, 2003 2:56 am

Let's be a little clearer here. Cars "smoke" when cold because of the condensation effect. It's not really smoke, but water vapor. A car that smokes is burning something other than gasoline, meaning valve or ring problems. JetA is an oily fuel. If burned too rich, it smokes.
 
erj-145mech
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 4:21 am

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Fri May 09, 2003 3:15 pm

It seems like we've been changing more than the normal amount of bleed valves, and have had more than the normal amount of "reduced margin" or high ITT problems lately. I think that some of our problems may be associated with our comp wash proceedures, ie, solutions that aren't mixed correctly or not rinsed properly. There seems to be a chalky residue in the CABV's when we examine them. Just my humble observations.

Dave
 
E1FAIL
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:36 am

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Sat May 10, 2003 2:22 am

Where are you guys at on the mod to go to a single CABV?
 
gt1
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Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2001 10:30 am

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Thu May 15, 2003 6:55 am

I remember the RB211's on the L1011 looking very similar on start up, especially in cold weather (and sometimes difficult to start too). Could it be a design trait in some or all RR engines?
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Thu May 15, 2003 9:46 am


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Photo © Michael Schmidt



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Photo © Dirk Jaeger


Looks good to me!
I think the temperature has a lot do to with it, I know with the L1011 it was always smokey.
Go big or go home
 
jcxp15
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Thu May 15, 2003 10:42 am

Damn, if I was a passenger in those last 2 planes, I sure would be kinda nervous......
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Thu May 15, 2003 2:57 pm

That L1011 looks likes it's got an engine fire  Wow! If i was a pax on one of those i would shat myself lol.
 
FLY 8
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Thu May 15, 2003 10:03 pm

It´s the same with the car! If you shout down an hot engine in the evening with cold temperatuers outside, there will be condense water inside. And that condense water with some dirt particles will freeze inside the engine walls. Aand then when you start the engine the ice becomse water vapour.
Thats what you see!!
yes i can handle that alone. - - -famous last words
 
dc10hound
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Thu May 15, 2003 10:54 pm

I remember the RB211's on the L1011 looking very similar on start up, especially in cold weather (and sometimes difficult to start too). Could it be a design trait in some or all RR engines?

The RB211s on AAL B757s also smoke occasionaly on start up, especially on a cold day. I've seen some aircraft where one engine will smoke and the other doesn't.

I'm not sure why that is.
"Eagles soar. But weasels never get sucked into jet intakes.."
 
E1FAIL
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:36 am

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Fri May 16, 2003 1:48 am

FLY....In at least the case of the ERJ in the pictures above, that is definitely not water. Believe me, that cloud is Jet A. I/ve been next to one of those smoky starts more times than I can remember and the smell of unburned Jet A is overpowering. I am sure that is the same with the L1011. How much water would there have to be to produce a steam cloud that big and dense?
 
BR715-A1-30
Topic Author
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Fri May 16, 2003 9:26 am

I have never seen this happen on a BR715. Then again, they are new, fuel efficient engines, so maybe that is the case. But then again, maybe it was because I wasn't looking. Maybe next time I go to ATL in the dead of winter, I will check it out.
Puhdiddle
 
EWRvirgin
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue May 15, 2001 11:38 am

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Sun May 18, 2003 1:42 am

Hi Jacob,

Thanks for the plug! As others have already said, it was a smoky start. However, I don't remember it being a particularly cold day (upper 40's maybe).

Regards,
Fernando
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Mon May 19, 2003 12:56 am

I know with the L1011 it was always smokey.

Years ago, a Rich Air L-1011 going CLE-LAS had just pushed back from the gate in CLE. Now anyone who watches the 1011 with any frequency, knows the damn things smoke up terribly when the engines start to turn-it's just expected. Unfortunately, pax don't always know this.

Well, the pax apparently freaked big-time, and whle the smoke was still billowing out of #1, the started opening the emergency exits, and jumping out of the aircraft. The flight left about 2 hours later, after a MX check to just make sure things were ok, full of a bunch of very embarrassed customers who had been interviewed on local TV.  Smile
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Mon May 19, 2003 5:06 am

The BR-715s don't have much of a smoking problem, but I have noticed that there's always a little bit of smoke coming out of a vent on the engine.
 
jetBlue
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Can Someone Please Explain All Of This Smoke.

Tue May 10, 2005 3:05 am

Working for United Express, I see CRJs and ERJs back to back, and it appears the CRJs rarely smoke, and when they do, it's a very small amount.

Now with the temps warming up, the ERJs don't smoke as much, but sometimes one does, while the other doesn't.

My question in regard to the ERJ is the "boom" you hear when the engine is lit up. What is that? And why don't you hear it every time?

jetBlue
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