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JBLUA320
Topic Author
Posts: 3088
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 8:51 am

Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 4:11 am

I noticed this picture and immediately it stuck into my head saying "There is way too much flap!"

Ive been on many many A320 flights, and flaps have always been set at 10, and there is no way these flaps are at 10. Why is there so much flap?


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Photo © William Ronciere



Thanks
JBLU
 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 4:18 am

15 maybe? Looks like a normal takeoff flap setting to me.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3468
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 5:08 am

Looks normal to me, but aren't exact flap settings on Airbus aircraft variable?
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
A330
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 12:31 am

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 5:23 am

Sorry but flaps 10 or 15 does not exist on the A320.
You have config1+F or config2. for take-off. The setting on the picture is Config2 it seems. This configuration can be opted by the PIC. vor various reasons. Less Speed at Rotation and thus less runway, less braking energy required if aborted TO, but less climb performance also. IN CDG this is no problem, no high ground in the vicinity...
Also, it is very much possible that with Config2, you gan have a bigger assumed-temperature for derating your engines. But that depends from RWY to RWY and current weather!
Shiek!
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 5:54 am

The Airbus has a very simple series of "Config" settings for flap position (UP, 1, 2, 3 and FULL). Far more sensible than on the old Boeings which still refer to the the degrees of flap extended (why that is of interest to anyone I have no idea, on the 767 the angles are wrong anyway).

So on the A320, Configs 1, 2 and 3 are take-off settings. Config FULL is the normal landing setting. It is possible also to land with Config 3 (longer runways means slightly faster approach speed and more braking but less fuel used).

Config 3 takeoffs are common from shorter runways where lower rotation speeds allow a shorter takeoff run. The same applies to the 757/767 which can use Flap 5, 15 or 20 for take-off (the latter settings for shorter runways).

The higher drag associated with a Config 2 or 3 takeoff on the A320 will reduce the second-segment climb performance, but reduce required runway length.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
A330
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 12:31 am

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 7:17 am

Config3 is normally not used for TO on A320 if I recall correctly from my days on the lady. It is allowed though, but on short fields, it is just better to not use derating and t/o with flaps2. It is also a landing configuration, and the only one allowed config when landing after shutting down an engine.
Normally for landing, Config4 or "flaps4" is always used for normal landings.
Fuel reduction is minimal as Flaps4 will only be set after glidesope intercept and Flaps3/Gear Down Spoilers Armed loop.
Shiek!
 
JBLUA320
Topic Author
Posts: 3088
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 8:51 am

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 7:26 am

On jetBlue, the flaps have little marks on them..
Those marks give off the degree of flap.

For example, if the flaps are set for T/O at 10 degrees, tehre is a little sticker right on the flap taht says "10".

-JBLU
 
Rick767
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Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 7:48 am

"On jetBlue, the flaps have little marks on them..
Those marks give off the degree of flap.

For example, if the flaps are set for T/O at 10 degrees, tehre is a little sticker right on the flap taht says "10"."


But the flap setting remains referred to as a Config, this is probably for engineering purposes and may not actually refer to the degree of flap extended.

"Config3 is normally not used for TO on A320 if I recall correctly from my days on the lady. It is allowed though, but on short fields, it is just better to not use derating and t/o with flaps2."

Config 3 is regularly used @ EGGD (BRS) (with TOGA thrust!) on Air 2000 A320s as I jumpseated several times many moons ago with my cousin in the right seat.

I believe Config 1+F and 3 are the only two settings permitted for takeoff on Northwest A320s (no idea why this might be).

Apart from with one engine inop when would you use Config 3 for landing? We use Flap 20 for landing on the 757/767 with single engine but Flap 25 can be used for a normal landing (instead of Flap 30) and this is often used by some airlines (BA I understand...).

Oh and can you take-off with Config 3 on the bigbus?

Cheers.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
Guest

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 11:33 am

I am totally uneducated about the Airbus flaps configuration... but take this opportunity to mention (see Rick767's posting about the 767 here above) that for Boeing airplanes, flaps "settings" do not mean "angle" or "percent" in any manner... "Flaps 20" means just "20" in a Boeing, can be anything you want...
xxx
Saying "flaps 20 degrees" is erroneous, if you would say it for a Boeing. Erroneous as well for Douglas aircraft... I do not know what is applicable for other types of airplanes. Long time ago - who knows, maybe in the days of the DC-3, it really meant "degrees"...
xxx
Happy contrails  Big grin
(s) Skipper
 
JETPILOT
Posts: 3094
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 6:40 am

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 4:09 pm

Just a small observation.... the plane is airborne.... isn't it?

I guess it wasn't too much flap.

JET
 
BrusselsSouth
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2001 2:12 am

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 6:24 pm

The different available settings for the flaps on the 320 are clearly visible on the pic below (look at the flap lever in bottom right).


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Photo © Adrian Raths



BTW, I have one question (forgive me if it looks stupid but I'm not a pilot) : is there an ACTUAL flap position indicator on the A320 (I suppose it is indicated somewhere on a screen) ? If so, where is it located ?

And also, can someone here tell me what is this symbol (with the 2 green triangles, just below the 'FOB' indication) on the screen on the following pic ?


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Photo © Adrian Raths



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BrusselsSouth
 
A330
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 12:31 am

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 6:47 pm

Well, Brussels South,
Your 2 questions are the same actually.
These little triangles will are the leading and trailing edge of the Airbus. (well, on EFIS anyhow).
Now, lets say that you want to select Config1 but your speed is still higher than the maximum Config1 extension speed( 210kts). You select your setting and your flaps will appear on that triangle in BLUE. They are not yet extended in reality, because your speed is still too high. When your speed has decreased until the max. for Config1, they will come out in reality and the flaps on the EFIS display will turn green.
This will all be shown on the Upper ECAM screen by the way.

In flight, when selecting Config1, only the slats will come out. On ground, selection of Config1 also extends a small amount of Flaps.

hope this helps,
A330
Shiek!
 
FLY 8
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 5:48 am

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 7:10 pm

Well, on the Dornier 328the degrees on the flap lever represents the actual degrees of flaps on the wing.
yes i can handle that alone. - - -famous last words
 
BrusselsSouth
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2001 2:12 am

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 7:14 pm

A330 :

Bedankt voor uw antwoord (thanks for your kind answer !)

So, I checked the database with your answer in mind. If I understood you well, on this pic :


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Photo © Ivan Rodriguez - IBERIAN SPOTTERS



the flaps are full down (the slats as well).

On this one :


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Photo © Markus Burkhard



The flaps are up (green triangles), but the flap lever is set to 'config 2' position (blue triangles, with the blue '2' sign). Right ? BTW, why is the actual flap position different from the requested position ? The plane is on the ground waiting for T/O, so what would prevent the flaps from extending to 'config 2' ? Is this a special simulator case or so ?

Regards
BrusselsSouth
 
GE
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2000 5:01 pm

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 7:16 pm

A330:
"Config3 is normally not used for TO on A320 if I recall correctly from my days on the lady. It is allowed though, but on short fields, it is just better to not use derating and t/o with flaps2."

Rick767 is right to say that it actually isn't uncommon to use Flaps 3 for takeoff, especially on short runways.
In fact it is actually very useful because the A320 sometimes operates from very short runways and Flaps 1+F would not be allowed in those cases, especially when heavy.
Although it may be preferred to use Flaps 2 when Flaps 3 isn't needed (like you mentioned), some airlines only have takeoff charts for Flaps 1+F and 3. I can't remember what airlines, but I think United and Northwest are one of them. Which means they only get to choose from flaps 1+F or 3 for takeoff.
I understand that can be quite an inconvenience at times.

That also answers your question about Northwest, Rick.  Big grin

For Swiss it is quite different. Their normal takeoff flaps is 2. They occassionally use 1+F for climb restrictions and I don't think they ever use 3.

Apart from with one engine inop when would you use Config 3 for landing?
In windshear conditions, or in really strong, gusty winds where a faster approach speed would be quite a help. Also if there is a mechanical problem flap 3 may be part of the landing checklist for that fault.

Oh and can you take-off with Config 3 on the bigbus?
I believe it is possible, although apparently it is quite unheard of.  Smile

Regards,
Russell J.



[Edited 2003-05-27 12:17:43]
 
GE
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2000 5:01 pm

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 7:19 pm

BTW, why is the actual flap position different from the requested position ? The plane is on the ground waiting for T/O, so what would prevent the flaps from extending to 'config 2' ?

The photo was probably taken just when the pilot moved the flap lever and the flaps still had not moved to their position yet (it would take some time).

Regards,
Russell J.
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 11:00 pm


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Photo © Adrian Raths

What is the Left Seat Pilot holding on to. It looks like some little black wheel, but I don't know what it does.

Also, On the 717, Flaps are set at 1 degree for Takeoff. I call it a "Flapless Takeoff".
Puhdiddle
 
Airbus_A340
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2000 8:41 pm

RE: Too Much Flap?

Tue May 27, 2003 11:21 pm

He's setting take off Elevator Trim.

Airbus_A340

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