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airjampanam
Topic Author
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:06 am

Take Off Emergencies

Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:33 am

Can someone clarify this for me, a family member recently was onboard a BA flight to MAN from JFK.
Apparently there was an emergency soon after take off and the flight had to return to JFK.
They had to dump fuel before doing so.
I'm not sure what BA is using from JFK to MAN these days, but I understand a fully loaded aircraft fuel wise for the pond crossing cant land that way, does that include ALL emergencies?
I'm assuming the emergency wasn't that bad since they had time to dump, instead of simply flying up the coast to Boston or some alternate airport.
Suing is the new Lotto... if u wanna win u gotta sue!
 
J32driver
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:55 am

RE: Take Off Emergencies

Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:18 am

Generally, if an an airplane isn't on fire you can take time to either dump or burn down the fuel load. An uncontrollable fire is one of the very few reasons that would cause an overwieght landing.

This scenario is very common for an airliner. Even the CRJ that I fly can takeoff 6,000 pounds over its landing weight. If I really tried, I could probably burn that much in about an hour.
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Take Off Emergencies

Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:43 am

"An uncontrollable fire is one of the very few reasons that would cause an overwieght landing."

I disagree, with only a handful of emergencies on the 767 would fuel dumping be considered. If the aircraft dumped fuel, the crew had lots of time on their hands and the emergency was not serious at all.

If the occurance leaves any doubt whatsoever about the continued safety of the flight, an overweight landing is carried out. These aircraft are certified to land up to MTOW in an emergency, and do so more often than you might think. We had a 767-300 last Summer for example which had smoke in the cabin after departure and landed 40,000kg overweight at MAN, no problem at all.

An overweight landing inspection is mandatory in this scenario but rarely finds any problems. A couple of hours later, the same plane was back on it's way to Florida (the source of smoke having been identified and fixed of course).

Many people believe landing above MLW is not possible, this is not the case at all. Only if the problem is very minor will the crew hang about dumping fuel.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
sllevin
Posts: 3314
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Take Off Emergencies

Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:31 am

Many people believe landing above MLW is not possible, this is not the case at all. Only if the problem is very minor will the crew hang about dumping fuel.

Especially since SR111! That tragedy drove home the "get it on the ground, NOW" philosophy for people who thought twice about it.

Steve
 
Guest

RE: Take Off Emergencies

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:40 pm

A brief statement, to reinforce what our friend Rick767 mentioned...
xxx
All transport category airplanes are capable to land at their highest MTOW...
If they land above MLW, they need a "heavy landing inspection"...
It takes about 2 hours to do such inspection...
And a lot of paperwork for the captain when returning to his base.
That's it....
xxx
Happy contrails -  Smile
(s) Skipper
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Take Off Emergencies

Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:11 pm

I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Take Off Emergencies

Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:11 pm

And a lot of paperwork for the captain when returning to his base.

My last overweight landing [birdstrike on takeoff w/loss of all airspeed indications] required 5 reports which took about 30 minutes to complete.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Take Off Emergencies

Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:43 pm

AAR90,

How coincidental, my only ever overweight landing (on the 757) was caused by a birdstrike on takeoff with loss of Captain's ASI among other things.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
AM
Posts: 602
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 1999 8:49 am

RE: Take Off Emergencies

Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:04 am

AAR90,

That sounds scary, what's the procedure for a landing with no speed indications?
"... for there you have been and there you will long to return."
 
Guest

RE: Take Off Emergencies

Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:58 am

Loss of both ASI in the 747...
xxx
We can use "ground speed" while approaching the runway, short final (using INS), knowing the wind reported by the control tower, we can correct the ground speed to derive an approximate airspeed value for short final.
xxx
Besides all that, we know what amount of EPR (N1 or FF) it takes to carry an approximate Vref in normal landing configuration, in case the GS from INS was not indicated...
xxx
Airspeed can be replaced by use of AOA "angle of attack" indicator in many small private jets (I wish the 747 had that AOA) - i.e. in all Learjets...
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper
 
Guest

RE: Take Off Emergencies

Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:17 am

Skipper's correct, us bizjet guys use our AoA indicators to back up our airspeed indications. The loss of an ASI, or for that matter, all of them is an absolute non-event when it comes to approach and landing.
Jetguy

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