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vikkyvik
Topic Author
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Lahso Ops?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:01 pm

Question here...I was on a flight into BOS sometime last year, landing on runway 27. As we were touching down, another jet was landing on runway 22L at exactly the same time. 22L crosses 27 towards both runways' far ends. Now given that both planes touch down early enough on the runway, I'm sure it was perfectly safe (the plane landing on 22L turned off of the runway before it crossed 27). But if by chance both planes had landed farther down the runway than intended, wouldn't that be a recipe for disaster? Even if one plane performed a go-around, it would still bring the two planes extremely close together. Is this a normal operation, and if so, is it considered a LAHSO op? Granted, the worst-case scenario is rather unlikely. Anyway, thanks for the replies.
~Vik

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danielbk
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:51 pm

Land and Hold Short ops are usually agreed upon before landing..

i.e. - you are advised by the tower.

you also have the right (as pic) to refuse.


If you feel you won't be able to stop before the crossing, you should refuse,
and if you have accepted and unable (landed long, etc.) go around!
----

I don't remember the runways in LGA, but usually they use one runwy for t/o and the second one for landings. You often see the departing plane starting to roll just as the first one touches down, since while he will gain momentum and cross the crossing, the landing plane would have rolled far past.


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Rick767
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:11 pm

LAHSO with commercial aircraft certainly is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

I no longer come across it in my current airline (Europe ops) but we were not allowed to accept such a clearance in my last airline (BA is the same).

Flightplan was annotated on USA / Canada flights accordingly in remarks section: "LAHSO NOT PERMITTED".

A Calgary tower controller was most upset with us when we refused on approach a few years ago  Big grin should have read the flightplan!

Incidentally, MyTravel (formerly Airtours) do accept a LAHSO clearance.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
Guest

RE: Lahso Ops?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:57 pm

When it comes to LAHSO...
"Just say no."
 
AAR90
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:48 pm

A Calgary tower controller was most upset with us when we refused on approach a few years ago should have read the flightplan!

That part isn't on the ATC part of the flight plan.

When it comes to LAHSO... "Just say no."

IMHO, it all depends upon the situation. Nothing wrong with LAHSO with 10,000+ feet available to stop (DFW). Also nothing wrong with refusing a LAHSO clearance. Most USA airports where LAHSO have been "codified" include the restriction that LAHSO are for USA airlines only.

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:57 pm

Rick767,

You are right: JAR-OPS does not permit LAHSO for planes other than cat A, so you won't easily find any in Europe.

I know that LAHSO for heavier jets is quickly becoming a standard US procedure, yet I am in serious doubt over the fact whether an airline flying under JAR-OPS may accept it as like you say MyTravel does.

Isn't the basic rule in case of discrepancies between different state operating procedures stating you have to follow the most strict ones, hence the fact like AAR90 said LAHSO is normally reserved for airlines following the FARs?

A different yet similar example:
Some JAR-OPS member states allow a cat II approach down to an RVR of 300m, whereas the FAR requires to look for 350m minimum. If a US airline comes to an airport in Europe with cat II, yet without cat III approach facilities and finds itself faced with an RVR of lets say 325m, they will have to divert, notwithstanding the fact some other carriers (but following JAR-OPS) are shooting the approach legally and successfully.

[Edited 2003-11-10 16:00:37]
 
Guest

RE: Lahso Ops?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:48 am

I agree with Rick767 and our other friends that LAHSO is a potential for a disaster.
It is against the policy of many U.S. air carriers.
Same for Argentina. Glad to hear the JAR gentlemen do the same...
Before that policy was official, as captain, I would have refused any LAHSO instructions.
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper
 
timz
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RE: BOS

Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:32 am

Looks like 9-27 and 4R-22L centerlines at Boston intersect 5976 from the 27 threshold and 6736 ft from the 22L displaced threshold (which is 1199 ft from the runway end). So the 22L arrival was holding short for you?

How short can jet LAHSO runways be, anyway?
 
dash8tech
Posts: 708
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:23 am

Doh! All this time I thought Lahso Ops was a breed of dog!

Sorry, couldn't resist...I'll get me coat!

 Nuts
 
vikkyvik
Topic Author
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:13 am

Timz,
Those distances sound correct. As far as I can remember, both planes turned off of our respective runways before the intersection. Again, if I remember correctly, I was in an A319 or A320, and the other plane was either an A320-family or 737-family. So in our case, it seems that neither plane actually had to hold short. But ~6000 and ~7000 feet do seem like rather short distances to require LAHSO. It was a bit of a shock to see a plane landing on a runway that I knew intersected ours at the same time as us.
AAR90,
Is there any need for LAHSO at DFW? I didn't think any runways intersected.
Thanks again guys.
~Vik
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
AAR90
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:57 am

...and the other plane was either an A320-family or 737-family. So in our case, it seems that neither plane actually had to hold short. But ~6000 and ~7000 feet do seem like rather short distances to require LAHSO.

SOP for BOS is commuters land 22L to hold short of 27 while "mainline" jets use the full length of 27. AA OpSpec prohibits AA planes from accepting LAHSO on 22L.

Is there any need for LAHSO at DFW? I didn't think any runways intersected.

IMHO, there is never a "need" for LAHSO... which is why a Captain can refuse such clearance at any time. Since formalizing LAHSO, AA reports it has seen DFW taxi-in delays reduced by an average 42% and ORD departure delays reduced an average 27%.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
radarbeam
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:05 am

Just for the Heads up, LAHSO in Canada doesn't mean anything. It's called SIRO; Simultaneous Intersecting Runways Operations.

Radarbeam
 
vikkyvik
Topic Author
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:41 pm

AAR90,
I'm almost positive that it was a Northwest Airlines jet landing on 22L, while I was in an America West jet. I suppose I could have been wrong, but I don't think so.
Thanks again for the replies.
~Vik
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
pilotpip
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:51 pm

AOPA also encourages pilots of GA aircraft to refuse LAHSO ops. Runway incursion or worse waiting to happen. I've been asked to comply a couple times but declined. Not in my best intrest, going around may cost a few bucks but I'll live to fly another day.
DMI
 
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c172akula
Posts: 826
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:43 am

Rick767: I'm a flight instructor out of Calgary International, so I get to deal with the LAHSO op's all the time. I'm surprised that the controller was upset, they're usually a pretty good bunch in the tower up there. Just the other day they asked Skywest if they could take part in a LAHSO, with them departing 16 with a Cessna 172 landing 25 to hold short, they said they were not able and it was no problem.

I agree that they can be a potential trouble spot, but at least at YYC when it is a 172 holding short of the other active it isn't so bad. After all we still have usually 3,500' or more of runway to put er down on. So I feel it helps tower out with the more 'important' arrivals such as yourself.

Well in the next 10 years or so we will have the parallel 16/34 and LAHSO will be a thing of the past at YYC.

Oh and Radarbeam, they still call it LAHSO here in Calgary, along with the SIRO as well. I believe SIRO is more in regards to landing and rolling a/c to take off with minimum delay. Meaning and aircraft on 34 gets its take off clearance before the a/c landing on 28 actually crosses the intersection.

[Edited 2003-11-11 17:47:19]
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Lahso Ops?

Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:43 am

C172Akula,

"I'm surprised that the controller was upset, they're usually a pretty good bunch in the tower up there."

From what I recall of the event the controller had simply got himself boxed into a corner, where one aircraft (either arriving or departing) was crossing an intersecting runway. I think the other aircraft went around from memory, though of course we were fully prepared to do that if asked, given our refusal to accept the LAHSO request.

The controller was in no way unpleasant, but his tone certainly suggested that we had put him in a sticky situation! As much as we could have helped him out our SOPs clearly prohibit LAHSO and so if it all went wrong our aircraft insurance would be invalid.

As Pilotpip said, go-arounds cost a bit but we will all live to see another day... another landing!

AAR90,

"That part isn't on the ATC part of the flight plan."

No it isn't I agree, but is information in the REMARKS section of a flightplan not made available to tower controllers? Apologies for my lack of understanding of how flightplans relate with ATC, but since this particular remark is really only of interest to the destination tower controller, whose responsibility is it to pass the information to him / her? The Approach Controllers?

If it is no-ones responsibility... it does rather beg the question why we bother putting it on the FPL in the first place!

Cheers.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:54 am

...but is information in the REMARKS section of a flightplan not made available to tower controllers?

Normally... NO! Only essential ATC control information is provided to ATC by airlines. Even if something in the REMARKS section is provided to ATC upon initial transmission, it is highly unlikely it will remain throughout the flight to be retransmitted [multiple times] to reach the destination airport Tower CAB.

AA flight plans are multi-page behemoths with all sorts of useless data interspersed with a bunch of important stuff. ATC will only see the two lines near the top that has the "coded" information [everything abreviated in the ATC acceptable computer language]. REMARKS are not included.

Actual controllers see even less --just the "strip" of very basic data. When you get to destination that's normally all the Tower controllers see/know. WRT LAHSO, the codified procedure requests you notify Approach Control upon initial contact if you are "unable" LAHSO. That's normally ATC's first clue a "qualified" participant will not be participating this flight. Normally, Approach Control will pass this info on to the tower --not always, but seems to work most times in USA.

When I filed hand-written flight plans there was significant space [DOD and FAA forms] for REMARKS. I'd estimate less than 5% of the time the destination airport actually received those remarks (which is why I always telephoned before departing). Somebody has to type the flight plan into a computer's data blocks --you didn't think they did it they way you intended did you?  Nuts
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
deltamike172
Posts: 62
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:39 am

I remember a few years back (like 5 years) there was consideration for a policy change in LAHSO which certainly didn't float anyones boat.

Someone had a brilliant idea that in order to make LAHSO's safer, the following rule should take affect:

If any pilot accepts a LAHSO clearance, thier license would be revoked if they didn't hold short of the appropriate intersection, OR they executed a missed approach.

Needless to say, pilots were not big fans of that happening and it got thrown out pretty quick. I just figured this LAHSO conversation wouldn't be complete with out that little tidbit of useless information.

ALSO: If LAHSO procedures exist at an airport, all the distances are published on the airport diagram.

DM
 
vikkyvik
Topic Author
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:58 am

Sorry for the gigantic thread-bump...

I flew into BOS last weekend, and was again treated to a LAHSO landing. Got some photos of it this time, so thought I'd post a few if anyone's interested.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 10):
SOP for BOS is commuters land 22L to hold short of 27 while "mainline" jets use the full length of 27. AA OpSpec prohibits AA planes from accepting LAHSO on 22L.

Any idea if this is still the SOP? I was in an A320 landing on 22L, and a US Airways A319 was landing on 27. We held short of them, although we turned off the runway prior to the intersection (same as last time).

Also, if I shouldn't be posting these photos for whatever reason, please send me an IM and I will remove them.

In the last photo, we were turning off of 22R just as the A319 was crossing it (they were still on runway 27). You can also make out the hold short line and flashing lights.




I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
swiftski
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:05 am

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 13):
AOPA also encourages pilots of GA aircraft to refuse LAHSO ops.

In Australia it is not permitted for a PPL, CPL or ATPL holder to participate in LAHSO unless you are:

a) trained in LAHSO ops
b) have a stamp in your log book to show completion of LAHSO training
or
c) being trained or tested on LAHSO ops

A holder of an SPL may not participate in LAHSO when operating as PIC.
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3595
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:46 am

[quote=Dash8tech,reply=8]Doh! All this time I thought Lahso Ops was a breed of dog!

I thought is for flying to an airport in Tibet.   
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
dispatchguy
Posts: 635
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:32 am

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 10):
Is there any need for LAHSO at DFW? I didn't think any runways intersected

They can also use LAHSO between a runway and a taxiway - such as at DFW. Landing on the 17s or 18s and holding short of taxiway Bravo way down on the south side of the field.

For US carriers, the crew has to be trained on the rules in LAHSO, and there is a specific operations specification authorizing their use (A027). LAHSO ops are suspended when the runway is wet, the runway must have a visual or electronic glideslope, no tailwind (well, the tailwind can be calm - not greater than 3 kts); weather minima of 1500-5.

DG
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
EasternSon
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:49 pm



Lhasa Apso
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1411
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:56 am

As for the current deficiencies of the REMARKS section of the flight plan, when they went out over teletype everything on the flight plan was received at the other end. I used to put an intermediate 1 hour stopover into REMARKS and it was no problem for VFR flight plans. I have no idea if the entire thing is now sent.
 
bri2k1
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RE: Lahso Ops?

Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:13 pm

While I don't know this for sure, my experience tells me that I think Center and Approach get the whole thing, while Tower might have to do a little more digging. This is because when doing instrument training I would often include a lot of comments about which approaches I wanted where, and I would be in and out of the DEN Class B, APA, BJC, and PUB class D, and COS class C, and even ZDV out over the plains. Those approach and center guys (and gals) were always really sharp, helpful, and accommodating, and seemed to have all the info I'd included in the remarks section available when I was negotiating the next phase of my clearance with them. Tower, meanwhile, sometimes seemed less clear about my intentions and/or capabilities.
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