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infiniti757
Topic Author
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:56 am

TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:07 pm

All this talk of doors piqued my curiosity. I believe that the L1011 had doors that slid up when they opened (it my have been the DC-10). It was supposed to be a unique system.

How exactly were these doors actuated?

How did they work in an emergency evacuation?
Give me the luxuries in life and I will gladly do without the necessities. (Frank Lloyd Wright)
 
RedDragon
Posts: 1096
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:24 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:24 pm

Assuming the "unique system" was just referring to the fact that the doors slid upwards, the L-1011, DC-10 and 767 all had this system - any others? I assume that the doors were counterbalanced so that in an emergency (normal operation being electric I believe, in the 767 at least) they could be opened.

Anyone shed any more light on this?

Rich
 
air2gxs
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:29 pm

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:37 pm

I don't remember the info on the B767 or the L1011 at this time but the MD-11 also has doors that go up into the fuselage. Normal operation is a motor that drives the door up into the fuselage and out of the way. Emergency operation uses the same mechanism to turn the same gearbox, but uses an air motor through a clutch. As soon as the process is initiated it cannot be stopped.
 
phollingsworth
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:05 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:06 pm

The DC-10/MD-11, L1011, and 767 all have in&up doors. I don't know the mechanism on the DC-10. The 767 doors are balanced, when the latch handle is released they unlock, move inwards, and slightly up from the floor, from here how they open is dependent on which door it is. For the L1 and L2 doors, if installed, there are two options, the electric motor for which the switch is in the door latch well (both internal & external). The second option works on all other doors. You reach down (to the bottom of the door when outside) to a pair of indentations on either side of the door where the slide container is at its deepest. You then lift the door into the ceiling. You can do it with your pinky if you go really slowly.

On the L1011, if I remember correctly, the door is spring loaded, like a garage door (expect the natural position is fully open). The latches/pressure hold the door close, and the electric motor opens it more slowly and closes the door. If the emergency handle is pulled the door returns to the point of lowest stored energy, open.
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:38 pm

Shame the Saudis didn't know how to open the doors. One burned up after having a cabin fire after take-off, and landing. No one got out alive.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
RedDragon
Posts: 1096
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:24 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:19 pm

Re. the Saudi accident, was the inability to open the doors from the inside due solely to the fact that the cabin was still pressurised? In this case, would it have been possible to open any design of door that needs to come into the cabin before it opens properly? (Think Boeing/Douglas narrowbody, Il-62, Trident...)

And re. the 767, I'd always assumed that electric operation was standard (or at least optional) for all doors, not just L1 and L2.

Interesting  Smile
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:45 pm

Indeed, RedDragon is correct.
In the RUH SaudiArabian accident, the cabin was still pressurized after landing due to the fact that the pressurization mode control was in the 'standby' position, and as such, the outflow valves did not open automatically upon touchdown, as they are designed to do in the 'normal' mode.
The cabin remains thus pressurized with the engines still running and any pack still selected on.
When the aircraft had turned off the runway, smoke and fumes had penetrated the flight deck, rendering the flight crew unable to take any action...ie: incapacitated.
The airport fire crew had to cut open the aircraft with fire axes, as the engines were still running, no door could be opened mechanically.

On the TriStar, the door is opened mechanically with a VERY large spring.
Once the 'emergency' handle is pulled, the door moves inward and rapidly upward thru the action of the spring, which has an installed tension of 15,000 pounds.
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
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RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:33 am

From what I have heard, FAs and gate agents hate these type of doors. Is there any advantage over the standard Boeing doors?

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
phollingsworth
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:05 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:06 am

From what I have heard, FAs and gate agents hate these type of doors. Is there any advantage over the standard Boeing doors?

One word: Jetways!!

You can't break the door by attempting to lift the entire aircraft. The outward opening doors all leave something for the jetway to catch on. I have seen many a bent and broken torque tube from this and a few bent doors.
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:47 am

One word: Jetways!!
Would a rotating door really not beat out a door where you have to push it up?

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
infiniti757
Topic Author
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:56 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:00 am

I never noticed that the 767 or MD11 also had these door types. I am usually pretty tired when I airline home, and I haven't been on an MD11 in a long time.

On these types of doors, where is the emergency slide stored?

Thanks for all the info so far.
Give me the luxuries in life and I will gladly do without the necessities. (Frank Lloyd Wright)
 
air2gxs
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:29 pm

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:30 am

Slide is stowed in the lower area of the door in a case. When the door is blown in an emergency the slide remains attached to the floor, falls out and inflates.
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:37 am

How are the slides attached/detached when arming and disarming? The 737 and 747 make sense, but I cannot understand how it works on planes like on Airbus planes, 757, 767, 777, DC-10, MD-11, and L-1011.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:06 am

On the Lockheed TriStar, a girt bar (with slide/raft attached) is engaged into retainers (on the door sill) when the door closed.
It is the responsibility of the individual flight attendant assigned to each individual door to ascertain that the girt bar is attached properly...otherwise the slide/raft will not deploy properly when needed.
All positively are trained in this, so problems are generally not encountered.
When the 'emergency' handle is pulled from inside the aircraft, the 15,000 pound spring opens the door rapidly, and the slide/raft, attached via the girt bar, is pulled from its container and inflated automatically.
Inspection of the slide/raft pressure bottle is also checked on each series of flights by the flight attendant.
A simple, reliable system.
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:46 am

Thanks, I understand how the evacuation part works, but I am confused as to how moving a little flap-type-thing (like on the tri-jets), and other arming pieces on the other planes (757, 777, and all of the Airbuses) can engage the slide with such a simple move.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
User avatar
DL_Mech
Posts: 2639
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RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:25 pm

I understand how the evacuation part works, but I am confused as to how moving a little flap-type-thing (like on the tri-jets), and other arming pieces on the other planes (757, 777, and all of the Airbuses) can engage the slide with such a simple move.

Think lots of rods, torque tubes and springs. On the L-10, the arming handle operated a rod that went down through the floor and rotated a tube which had clips that reached up and grabbed the girt bar.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
MD-80/90,MD-11
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
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RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:57 pm

Why would FAs and gate agents had the roll up doors? I think they're neat.
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:00 am

Why would FAs and gate agents had the roll up doors? I think they're neat.
*hate  Big grin

While some people may like them, I doubt that anyone who has ever had to deal with one of those doors likes them. The reason FAs and gate agents hate these doors is because it requires a lot more physical movement to open them, compared to "swinging" doors, because the doors usually have to be pushed up.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:13 am

On the TriStar, the pax entry door CANNOT just be 'pushed up'.
It is operated electrically by two simple actions.
The FA moves a lever to 'detatch' and pushes a button marked 'open'.
Presto, the door opens electrically.
To close, move the lever to 'engage', and push the 'close' button.
Presto, the door closes electrically.

Even a 95 pound flight attendant has absolutely no trouble with these actions.

If the electric motor fails, the door is cranked open with a hand crank.
In flying the TriStar for over twenty years, never had a door fail electrically.

Note the aft doors on the standard body TriStar, are used for emergency exit only, and not for pax boarding.
These doors are NOT electrically operated....

EXCEPT,
On those aircraft that were originally ordered by BEA and Court Line.
These standard body aircraft had L4 and R4 doors the SAME size as the others, and operated electrically.
This allowed a max seating capacity of 400.
 
tristar2000
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 8:18 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:51 am

I have worked on Airbus products (310&330), Boeing 757s and L-1011s for an airline and I can tell you that the easiest doors to handle in the opinion of almost all are the ones on the Tristar (up inside the fuselage), and that for several reasons:

-Like it was said, they don't fail electrically very often (I've never seen it happen).
-You can't just pop the slide by accident, because it won't open electrically if the slide isn't disarmed... the slide has to be armed, you have to remove a plastic cover and pull on the red handle to pop the slide.
-You can't pop the slide from the outside, because pulling the handle from the outside will automatically disarm the slide. Incidents involving slides popping on personnel on the outside can happen on Airbus and Boeing.
-Since the door opens electrically, you don't have to push the door out and on the side (Airbus) or in before rotating towards the outside (757).
-And like mentioned above, they are not in the way of jetways, which could prevent possible damage.
-They are in sort fail-safe, because even though a door would fail in some way, the pressure would keep it in place (although this didn't help in the Saudi incident, I still believe the system is superior).

I don't know about the 767 or the DC-10/MD-11, but honestly, I can't see why anyone would hate these doors!!!

Even though I love the Tristar, I'm not biased on this one... it's because of features like these that I love the plane.

Best regards,
Steven  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:57 am

-You can't pop the slide from the outside, because pulling the handle from the outside will automatically disarm the slide. Incidents involving slides popping on personnel on the outside can happen on Airbus and Boeing.
The DC-10, MD-11, 747, 767, 777, and quite a few other planes all have doors where the door is dis-armed if opened from the outside.

Meanwhile, I believe that the L-1011 is the only type with that door that has electrical power come standard, meaning that for all of the other types of doors, you have to manually lift them.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:42 am

Ah, I see.

So, like my Toyota Cressida that had the automatic seatbelts that people disliked on other cars (but worked quite well on my car), the Lockheed design was superior to the norm. Not atypical for Lockheed (or having it be more complex, either!).
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: TriStar Emergency Evacuation

Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:42 pm

Not only is the Lockheed TriStar door design superior to others, Lockheed was the first US manufacturer to offer an electric 'inward and upward' moving door as standard fit...on the Lockheed Electra.

Even the electrically operated airstairs on the Electra were unique, altho not the first of their type.
The 'ole Convair 340/440 had 'em as well.

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