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marcolic
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How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:37 pm

In the different types of aircrafts that exist actually, how do pilots start up, the engines, with buttons, or switches, I don't know it, and how do they control the aircraft in ground while taxing, how do they turn the aircraft?

Cheers

Marcolic
I love aviation
 
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ual747den
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:52 pm

Most aircraft is started with the push of a button. When a plane is on the ground it is controlled by foot peddles.
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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:15 pm

UAL747DEN is correct..... in a way.


Starting a jet is a fairly long sequence of events, ending with the push of a button to get the thing rotating (not lit, though).

In the CRJ, the battery must be on, the APU must be running to supply pneumatic pressure to spin up the N2 spool- the high pressure inner one (if the APU is not running, an external high pressure air cart must be used as well as a ground AC power cart), fuel boost pumps on, the bleeds coming the APU and to the engines must be configured properly, the air conditioning packs must be off, and the ignitors must be armed.

If all these are satisfied (quickly off the top of my head), then you can press the respective start button.

Once you press the start button, you look for N2 rotation (inner high speed core), then you look for positive oil pressure increase...once N2 reaches 20%, and if there is positive N1 rotation and the ITT is below 120 C, you can bring the thrust lever out of the shutoff detent and into the IDLE detent to introduce the fuel. From there you look for lightoff, a good ITT increase, but not too quickly, and smooth N2 increase. If any of these begins to look abnormal, the fuel is shut off from the engine and it is dry motored to the starter limit (1 minute per cycle) to cool the engine and blow excess fuel out of the back.
Once N2 reaches 55% you look for starter cutout. A stabilized started is reached at about 60% with the ITT rollback from its highest temperatures. Idle is typically at around 60% N2 and 25% N1.... N1 being the fan.


How bout that for simple?  Smile



On the CRJ, the rudder pedals give only 7 degrees left or right of steering. The tiller on the captain's side gives 70 degrees left or right. The pedals are only used on straightaways or on the runway on takeoff or landing. The tiller is used the vast majority of the time on the ground.

On light planes, the rudder pedals are your only source of steering.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
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ual747den
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:29 pm

XFSU,
I just didn't think that everyone should know everything that you need to do to get the thing started. This is Anet and people are crazy! Next thing you know your going to see some wacko driving a CRJ up and down the runways trying to figure out how to get it to fly!!!!

Oh God please no one tell us how to get the 747 running !!!!
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L-188
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:41 pm

Don't try this at home.

Tie the tail of the Sopwith down.

Verify mags off and mixture lean/off

Pull the prop through a few times to prevent destroying an engine due to hydraulic lock. then place the prop horizontal or with the downhill turning blade slightly about horizonal, easy reach.

Fuel on, mixture rich mags on.

hold on to the downhill blade with just the tips of your fingers, extend your right leg the swing the leg aft and step back on it, with at the same down pulling the blade down with a strong motion

If this doesn't work Mags off, mixture lean and pull the blade back through to horizontal and reattempt.


Don't try this with modern aircraft motors, they turn a lot faster RPMs then an OX-5 and LeRhone radials.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:45 pm

I'd like to see them figure it all out. I told them what needs to be done, not how to do it  Smile Even though I know how to start my aircraft...I'd be a bit confused even trying to start a whale or an airbus. Believe it or not..that was very basic what i just put up there. Alot more things go on...

I figure it couldn't hurt to have some people know a bit more on what goes on in the compexities of jet aircraft- esp those people that think we are overpaid bus drivers. Oversimplification of things tends to make people think they know more than what they do.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
707CMF
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:53 pm

The fire up sequence for a DR221, in Summer :

(assuming pre flight has already been done, and pre-start checklist too)
Battery On
Fuel pump on
two injections with the throttle
Fuel pump off
Magneto : 1+2
check parkin brake
check clear surroundings
Press start button



In winter :
Step zero
Battery On
Fuel pump on
six injections with the throttle
Step one
Fuel pump off
Magneto : 1+2
check parkin brake
check clear surroundings
Press start button
Say rhaa
Fuel pump on
three more injections with the throttle
press start buttons
say rhaa again
five more injections with the throttle
press start button
start cussing
signal to the fellow pilot on the ground that you want him to give a few more turns on the prop
Magneto off
the aforementioned pilot first turn the prop backwards to empty the cylinders
full throttle
the aforementionned pilot turns ten blades
He pushes the aircraft a few feet forwards so that you don't start the engine right over a fuel puddle
do step one (till here) at least once or twice.
Stop every thing
take a hair drier
heat the cylinders of the lycoming
go back to step zero...
Until it eventually starts up.


Now, do you understand why we keep cats in engines ? it's to keep 'em warm !

Cheers,

707
 
Tiger119
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:38 pm

Hey Denny, you get to do all that and receive a pay check too?  Wow! I read your start up sequence or process with the thought of that thread last year (comparing pilots to bus drivers) bouncing in the back of my mind. The people that think they can compare the two are in another solar system............

(No, I'm not kissing up just to catch a ride in a plane!)
Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
 
BA777
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:21 pm

A bit of Flight Sim knowledge here to back up what has been said about the CRJ. For the 767, the procedure is along the lines of:

Battery on, all fuel pumps on etc

Switch packs to off, and make sure theres more than 20-something indicated on the airflow indicator.

You usually start engine two to begin with, so move the switch to GND to start the starters.

Watch the lower ECAM (or is it EICAS...whatever  Smile), and look for 20% N2, then let the fuel run in from the tanks  Smile

Pretty simple, and it gets easier and easier in the newer aircraft.

Henry
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:02 am

Henry,

So, what about the crossbleed valve? What is the initial fuel flow on switching the fuel levers? What about the fire test before run? How high is your max starting EGT? What do you do if it overshoots the maximum? How do you recognise if it will overshooot the max? At what speed is your starter cut out? How do you verify the starter has cut out? What do you do if the starter doesn´t disconnect? What is your minimum oil pressure on idle? What is the engine vibration limit on idle? How long should it take for the engine to go from fuel on to stabilised idle? How do you regcognise a hung start? What do you do? How do you react to a tailpipe fire? How do you react to an engine fire warning?

What checks follow after start?

Just a few points....

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
prebennorholm
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:45 am

There are other procedures. The following one was experienced one winter afternoon almost fifteen years ago on an OK Il-62 at CPH (normally it would have been a Tu-154, but on this particular day it was not).

1. Pax board on time.
2. 15 minutes after scheduled departure the flight crew (four) arrives on the flight deck.
3. Flight crew starts a ten minutes very loud discussion in foreign language, then leave the plane again.
4. Sun sets.
5. It gets dark, no light in cabin.
6. It gets cold.
7. Passengers find their overcoats from overhead bins.
8. An hour later flight crew returns, discusses at lower decibel level, same language.
9. Five minutes later a truck with a strange trailer arrives at the rear of the aircraft. Half a dozen tech people with SAS printed on the back of the overalls start running around the aircraft.
10. Ten minutes later technicians shake their heads, enter the truck and drive away with the trailer.
11. Half an hour later the same truck returns with another trailer.
12. Technicians pull long cables from the trailer and start shouting at each other.
13. Fifteen minutes later one engine begins spinning.
14. Technicians shout and begin to retrieve cables.
15. Technicians drive away with truck and trailer.
16. Five minutes later the three remaining engines are started.
17. Light is turned on in cabin.
18. Nice, warm air start flowing into the cabin.
19. (50 minutes later, landing in PRG).
20. (Line up in the airport currency exchange queue).
21. (Half an hour later, finds out that the currency exchange office had closed long time ago).

[Edited 2004-08-06 00:48:12]
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
SlamClick
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:05 am

Okay, now pay attention.
1. Attach a RED cable to the Positive terminal on the car with the good battery.
2. Attach the other end of the Red cable to the positive on the plane.
3. Attach the Black cable to the Negative terminal on the car with the good battery.
4. Attach the other end to the Positive terminal on the plane battery.

If you don't do it in this sequence you might pop the airbag on the plane.

To start a B-17:

Tie a loop in one end of a hemp rope, big enough to slip over a propeller blade and then some. Slip it over one blade and wrap it about three times around the prop hub in the desired direction of rotation. Tie the other end to the back bumper of a jeep or a deuce-and-a-half. Pilot selects mags ON and mixture AUTO RICH with throttle cracked. Jeep drives away. Engine is running.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
fly727
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:16 am

just didn't think that everyone should know everything that you need to do to get the thing started. This is Anet and people are crazy! Next thing you know your going to see some wacko driving a CRJ up and down the runways trying to figure out how to get it to fly!!!!

Are you for real? Dude, there's an easier way for those wackos to learn. It's called Microsoft Flight Simulator.

RM  Smile
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
Super Em
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:55 am

I'd like to see them figure it all out. I told them what needs to be done, not how to do it Even though I know how to start my aircraft...I'd be a bit confused even trying to start a whale or an airbus. Believe it or not..that was very basic what i just put up there. Alot more things go on...

I agree. I don't think an intruder can enter a cockpit and find all the buttons required to start the plane that easily.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:14 pm

If we are dependent on intruders not being able to acquire that sort of knowledge for security, I think we're in serious trouble.

It's easy to find this sort of information on the internet. What's the big deal?

Case in point:
http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/Downloads/737_manuals.html
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
cancidas
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:52 pm

this is how i did it this morning.

avionics - OFF
master - ON
fuel - BOTH
scream "CLEAR PROP"
turn igntion

that's it, then again i was flying a cutlass this morning.  Nuts
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
Buzz
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:26 pm

Hi L-188, and SlamClick: Buzz here. I had a good chuckle at your engine start instructions.

At work i've found that i want "fuel -air-hydraulics-beacon-IRU's - mikes-parking brake" before i start engines (as a mechanic). It seems to work on whatever we're assigned to fix, since here in the States we get qualifed on each kind of airplane (company regulations), it's not a govenmental regulation.

Starting a round engine is "somewhat different". If my favorite DC-3 hasn't been run for a week or more we pre-oil her, which takes most of an hour per engine. And we initally start her with the bottom 5 sparkplugs out, run for 30 seconds or so to finish belching out the extra oil, then spend half an hour putting everything back together.
A few years ago i typed up how to start a radial engine for Bear's On-Line DC-3 museum . Randy Sohn also has written some very good stuff on radial engine operation.

I kind of like a 1946 Aeronca Champ, it's a hand-prop kind of start sequence. I use chocks (on a long rope) and a bungee around the throttle so she stays at idle when i hand-prop her. She's fun to fly with the windows open, off of grass airstrips.

And i'll agree about not letting all the secrets of how to start / fly the big aircraft out over the internet. I'd like to get to know the students first, get a gut feeling for who i'm training.
g'day
Buzz Fuselsausage: Line Mechanic by night, DC-3 Crew Chief by choice, taildragger pilot for fun.

 
AirframeAS
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:10 pm

you can bring the thrust lever out of the shutoff detent and into the IDLE detent to introduce the fuel.

I just love how the 'boom' vibration comes when the idle lever gets switched up on the B737!!! Big grin
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
LineMechQX
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:22 pm

Nowadays the FADEC will do everything for you, but press the start button, and fire the bottles in an engine fire. They ask us to watch engine parameters, but trust me FADEC is quicker then I am. And if the boss doesn't fix it, theres more problems then I care to deal with, within a start sequence.

Late
PC
 
L-188
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:34 pm

Well if the pnumatic bottle is not available, you can always spot a 727 in front of an L-188 Electra. Then start the 727, before it pulls out have the pilot of the Electra unlock the blades. The jet blast from the 727 is strong enough that it will spin the prop fast enough to get that big old Allison going....


Go ahead.....Ask me how I know this  Wink/being sarcastic
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:55 pm

I'll bite.

How do you know this L-188?


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:24 am

Yeah L-188, How do you know this?
Puhdiddle
 
greasespot
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:28 am

I have not seen it done but was told that you can also buddy start the 72 and 732. You run a duct hose from the airstart hook-up points and use the air from the one running A/C to start the other A/C.


Greasespot
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
KAUST
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:52 pm

So in a follow up to the part of the question asking how to steer on the ground...regarding the statement about the rudder giving 7 (I believe?) degrees of turn on the ground, would this even be true for a large aircraft such as a 747? Or do they do all 100% of ground steering by the tiller?

KAUST
"Houston, this is Apollo 8. We are now in Lunar orbit."
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:22 pm

AFAIK the 747 has limited nose wheel steering from the rudder pedals. Deflection of the tiller past a certain point also gives body gear steering.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
L-188
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:43 am

Easy, seen it done once.....


We had blown our compressed air bottle on another aircraft, and it hadn't recharged by the time that Electra was ready to leave.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:56 am

Not sure if this is right...but I learned at one point that the start sequence for the 747 is 1-4-3-2.

Any truth to that?

And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:48 pm

We started ours 4-3-2-1, based on the fact that #4 hydraulic system provides normal brake pressure.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
PhilSquares
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:28 pm

On the 744 here, we start ours 1-2-3-4. All the hydraulic systems have aux pumps anyhow. We just use the aux for #4 and turn it to auto in the after start flow.
Fly fast, live slow
 
WomBat151
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:33 pm

The manual here says 4-1-3-2
Ian @ EHAM (AMS), 3,1NM of SPY VOR radial 205
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:19 am

At NW...it's 3 AND 4...then 1 AND 2.... they start two engines at once on the 747-400's.  Smile

On the 200's...its 3-1-4-2 if i remember correctly.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Vikingair
Posts: 100
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:44 pm

The MD-11 start sequence is 3-1-2, and your right linemechqx FADEC is really neat.
 
greasespot
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:14 am

Ok older tech 727 and 737.

Apu going..Duct pressure.
Battery master on
brakes set.
radios set
beacon on
since this is a maintenance run cockpit[it does not need to be set up.

1. Start valve open
watch for between 18 and 22% n1.

2. Start lever to on
watch for 30-33 % N1

3. Release start valve.

Stable engines.

Really easy and simple and almost idiot proof. Notice I said almost.

Greasespot
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
LMP737
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:21 am

On the 777 it's really easy, select start on the over head and then place both fuel control levers to run and the aircraft takes care of the rest.  Smile
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Gary2880
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:25 am

your all wronggg so wrong, right, the correct sequence for starting an engine is to sit in the seat... move forward to the keyboard and press CTRL+E and that usualy works
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: How Do Pilots Start Up Engines.....

Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:41 am

MD-11:

Cockpit safety check:
Radar - off
Landing gear lever - down
Flap and Speed brake levers - corrct position (agreeing with surface position)
Check logbook for open items and deferrals
Perform walkaround inspection
Start APU:

Battery switch - on
Fire test -performed
Electric systems panel - press APU PWR switch
Wait until APU spools up and power comes on
set emergency power switch to AUTO, wait for emergeny power test to finish (30 seconds)
Perform indicator light and air system test
Align IRUs and set position on #1 or #2 CDU, wait for cargo fire test to finish
(Enter flight data and fuel qty in CDU, wait for refueling to finish)
Perform hydraulics pressure test, check hydraulic qty
Check all system switches in AUTO
Switch on #1 and #2 AUX PUMP
Check all LSAS and YAW DAMP switches oON
Check Flap limit switch and ELEV FEEL switch in AUTO
Check doors closed
Check brake pressure > 2500 PSI
Set Parking brake
set radios, get clearance
Switch on beacon
Establish communication with ground
Switch on APU bleed
Check Engine synoptics for oil qty 21-22 for CF6, 25-26 for PW4000
Select ignition source
Check on Engine synoptics APU N2 goes to 100%
Check on air synoptics bleed pressure goes to 25-35 PSI and packs shut down

Get clearance from ground
Pull #3 start switch, check light illuminates (start valve open)
Check N2 increases
Check oil pressure increases on engine synoptics
Check N1 rotation

At max N2 (about 25%) switch on fuel switch
On EAD (Engine and Alert display), watch small lightning bolt in EGT indicator, indicating ignition working
Watch EGT and N2 rising, watch for EGT limits.
Watch for starter cutout at 45% to 50% N2 (start switch snaps back and light goes off)
Watch engine stabilise around 61% N2 and about 20-25% N1
Watch Hydraulic system test for the respective engine pass. Else do manual test. Watch for Door test pass.
Repeat for remaining engines.

This list doesn´t include what can go wrong and was written out of memory.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

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