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Fokker50
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Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:04 am

Basically what the topic says.

Fokker50
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air2gxs
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:38 am

No, jet engines use Jet-A (commercial) which is basically refined kerosene.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:58 am

Well, there are props and props.

Turboprops are jet engines with a propeller. They use Jet-A.

Piston engines (with a prop of course) use high-octane gasoline, and there are also diesels.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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wilcharl
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:53 am

A jet engine will not complain if you feed it mo-gas, but a recip engine will. Diesels and turbine enignes will run on almost anything. We use to run a diesel generator off of sumped jet-a with no problem. I have heard that in the long run jet-a doesnt give the lubrication that diesel fuel does and that you get upper engine wear but we never had any problems.
 
air2gxs
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:04 am

You're right, a jet will run on avgas or even auto-gas, at the expense of the burner cans. Gasoline burns a whole lot hotter. One of my B747 instructors told us that it used to be in the book, but you only had 50 hours and then the engines came off wing. Never saw it in writing though.

 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:20 am

Actually early jet engines were designed to run on gasoline, the same stuff burned in piston engines (examples: the German JUMO 003 of the Messerschmidt 262 and the early Powerjet/Rolls-Royce engines). It is mainly a problem of different injection nozzles and fuel feed regulation to compensate for the lower viscosity and higher energy content.
Then somebody got the idea to try to see if a jet could also run on much cheaper kerosene, which was readily available as a waste product from the manufacture of high octan piston engine gasoline. ResulT: It worked and jet engines have been using (at least in the commercial world) kerosene ever since. A few operators use Jet B (also known as JP-5 for the military), which is a so called wide cut kerosene, which also contains gasoline fractions. It is mainly used in places with extremely cold weather because it freezes deeper than Jet A1, and also has a lower flash point, making it burn easier. On the other hand it is more flammable than kerosene type fuels and therefore more dangerous.

Ane exotic jez fuel would be Ethylboron, used as a high energy fuel on some experimental (I think the Valkyrie was one).

Jan
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Starlionblue
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:00 am

While we are on this, the turbine in the M-1 tank can run on most things, and so can the engine in the military variant of the Hummer.

As is clear from previous posts, combustion is combustion, but efficiency and wear are different. Modern jets are simply optimized to run Jet-A.
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L-188
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:59 pm

Nope, A Humvee is a diesel, the old General Motors 6.5 Liter one if memory serves.

Diesel and Jet Fuel are members of a whole family of fuels called Kerosenes. And generally speaking they are interchangeable with little effect.

A lot of older military aircraft used jets as booste engines to improve T/O performance on piston aircraft. Those jets also burned avgas. Generally a few adjustments are all that are needed to get a turbine to burn avgas. In fact many ops manuals will aprove it with time limits, setting limits or additive requirements
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pilotpip
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:18 am

Everybody here has hit the Jet-A pretty good. I'll tell you a little about aviation gasoline.

Most aircraft use a 100 octane leaded fuel we call 100 Low Lead. It's dyed blue for easy identification and Jet-A is usually clear or straw (yellowish) in color. This is to try and prevent Jet fuel from going into reciprocating engines. While Jets will run on gasoline, recips won't run on Jet Fuel. A DC-3 crashed at STL many years ago because of this. As a result, placards and fuel nozzles are made differently in the hope that you can't put a Jet nozzle into the filler on a recip.

As far as the fuel itself goes, it has lead in it. Just like the stuff that went in your car back in the days. It accounts for less than .1% of the gasoline refined in the US and it's widely believed that they'll just quit making it within the next decade or so. There is a Supplimental Type Certificate (STC) available that will allow many smaller aircraft to run on unleaded auto fuels that you can get at your local gas station but I really don't think that it's available for anything larger than a 172. Diesel engines are being developed that can replace gasoline engines. These are the future of GA. As mentioned, Diesels can run on Jet, which will be avaliable for a long time to come.
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Fokker50
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:11 am

Well, thanx all to take a minute and answer my question, but the prop I'm telling is the Turboporp, like the Fokker 50 engines.
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L-188
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:03 am

I would be shocked if the aircraft ops manual didn't include provisions for using avgas.

We have them in our for out merlins and metros and have had to use them a couple of times when jet wasn't available at a remote site.

If memory serves there is an hour limit and engine oil has to be added to the Avgas in that aircraft, but I don't fly them so I don't have the actual requirements imprinted on the brain.
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MD-90
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:49 am

Turboprops run on kerosene, because they're not reciprocating engines.
 
TimT
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:11 am

The fuel control on a P&W JT9 (and I'm sure others do too, I've never looked) TWA's ops manual said 50 hours on AVGAS and then overhaul. AVGAS eats turbine blades
 
N6376M
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:27 am

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/aviationfuel/toc.shtm

Everything you could ever possibly want to know about aviation fuels.
 
cancidas
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:54 pm

While we are on this, the turbine in the M-1 tank can run on most things, and so can the engine in the military variant of the Hummer.

don't take this the wrong way, but you're wrong. the military uses JP-8 in most of it's vehicles. even the humvees.
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Ralgha
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:26 pm

He's not wrong, he said CAN run, not IS run.
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airplay
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:45 pm

A jet engine will not complain if you feed it mo-gas, but a recip engine will.

Mo-gas is an alternate fuel for recip engines, so this statement makes no sense. Furthermore, as stated, turbine engines have pretty tight restrictions on alternate fuels. So you don't want to make a habit of it.

Then somebody got the idea to try to see if a jet could also run on much cheaper kerosene, which was readily available as a waste product from the manufacture of high octan piston engine gasoline...

Kerosene has a higher caloric content than gasoline. Therefore it is lighter than gasoline for the same amount of potential energy. Furthermore, gasoline is highly volatile compared to Kerosene fuels. So there is a safety factor as well.

A few operators use Jet B (also known as JP-5 for the military...

Nope. The military designation for Jet B is JP-4. And just for completeness, JP-8 is the equivalent to Jet A-1. And as noted, Jet B is a blend of Kerosene and Gasoline. It performs better in cold climates than Jet A.

 
dw747400
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:47 pm

In Vietnam our C-123s had a pair of turbojets to supplement the twin piston engines during critical phases of flight. These jets were run with the AVGAS used for the main engines, but were typically shut down during cruise as the TBO for them was between 50 and 100 hours.

Ironically many of the C-123s regularly transported jet fuel... so they had several thousand pounds of it aboard while the turbines were eating AVGAS.
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L-188
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:18 pm

Those 123K's would have had J85's if memory serves, the same basic engine as used on the T-37, F5 and Learjet. The earlier J boosted ones had a pair of turbines out on the tips (Ky's where underwing) I think those where off some drone.

A couple of the jets in the A&P lab at UAA where old booster engines. They had a white buildup on the tailpipes that apparently came from the lead in the exhaust from burning Avgas.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 10:44 am

While we are on this, the turbine in the M-1 tank can run on most things, and so can the engine in the military variant of the Hummer.

don't take this the wrong way, but you're wrong. the military uses JP-8 in most of it's vehicles. even the humvees.


As Ralgha kindly commented, I said CAN run. The fact that they don't normally do this is another matter. It's a good capability to have when the fecal matter impacts the rotary air impeller.  Big grin
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flyf15
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 10:49 am

What did the 4 jet engines on the B-36 burn?
 
AFHokie
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:33 am

I'm no expert in POL, but from what I've picked up in my time in, the air force uses JP-8, the navy uses JP-5 and the army runs diesel in all of their equipment, the M-1, Hummer's, Bradley's, etc, in order to simplify the logistics chain. Way back when, JP-4 was used by the air force, but sometime along the line it switched to JP-8, don't know what the different additives are, but I do know that JP-8 smokes a bit more.

Now how all this works out when USN aircraft take fuel from AF tankers, I don't know, I'm guessing they can run on either, and it's just a matter of prefrence of that service branch.
 
L-188
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:51 pm

I guarentee Avgas Flyf15.

I don't know of any USAF aircraft that used booster jets that didn't have them running on Avgas.

AfHokie, the Army uses J8 also, at least they did when I was in.

Actually they where finishing up the conversion over when I was in, the big problem they where haveing where trying to field certify a KP kitchen burner. Those and some of the old 3KW generators that powered RATT rigs where about the only things left that ran military MOGAS.

J4 is cut fuel if I remember and is quite spark happy. That is why the navy went with J-5 and why everybody switched to J8 in the late 1980's early 1990's.
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LineMechQX
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RE: Does Jet Uses Same Gasoline As Props?

Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:49 pm

Just to clarify for Fokker 50, there is little difference between a turbofan jet engine and a turboprop jet engine. One has a fan attached on the front to produce most of the thrust(turbofan), and the other has an RGB and prop installed on the front that produces almost all of the thrust(turboprop). The turbomachinery portions of the two engines, could in theory be swapped (they can't really I know so don't freak out on me people). But they both compress air, heat it, and use turbines to provide power to compressors, fans, AGB's, props, RGB's whatever it is you need turned. So there would be no need to operate one type of jet engine on a different fuel then the other. Unless like has already been said, you're flying in absolute zero temperatures, or all your other engines already run off of AVGAS. Hope that helps.

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