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deltadude
Topic Author
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:53 pm

New Runway At ATL

Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:05 am

how is the new runway going to help? can you have 3 parrell approachs? 3 parrell take offs? Won't there still be a bottle neck of planes on the ground?
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: New Runway At ATL

Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:12 am

Actually, the third runway (10/28) will lessen the delays during peak times, as the third runway will primarily handle RJs and other commuter a/c, which when you consider the size of Delta Connection ops @ ATL, will definitely help shorten wait times for take offs.
 
deltadude
Topic Author
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:53 pm

RE: New Runway At ATL

Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:14 am

but those A/C have to cross the other runways
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: New Runway At ATL

Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:47 am

It won't help that much. Its an expensive way of increasing capacity. Why doesn't ATL and Delta Airlines instead work on ways of depeaking arrivals and departures instead of having all flights come in at one time.

When I evacuated for Hurricane Frances up to Atlanta, I stayed at the Ramada across from ATL and watched the operation there. Delta would fly a ton of planes in at once, so whoever gets put in the back of the line is an hour late. One after another the planes would come in, then about a half hour/hour later hardly anything would come in, then a few minutes later there would be a ton of take offs, then hardly any take offs...


Look at this schedule I took from flytecomm.com from today, the first is Delta arrivals between 6:30 and 7, the second part is Delta arrivals from 7:30-8



Mexico City Delta Air Lines 522 06:30 PM In Flight
Cleveland, OH Delta Air Lines 1861 06:31 PM In Flight
Santa Ana, CA Delta Air Lines 850 06:32 PM In Flight
Saint Louis, MO Delta Air Lines 878 06:34 PM In Flight
Manchester, NH Delta Air Lines 881 06:37 PM In Flight
Salt Lake City, UT Delta Air Lines 1592 06:37 PM In Flight
Memphis, TN Delta Air Lines 9819 06:39 PM Planned
Phoenix, AZ Delta Air Lines 348 06:40 PM In Flight
Austin, TX Delta Air Lines 1406 06:41 PM In Flight
San Salvador Delta Air Lines 380 06:42 PM In Flight
Miami, FL Delta Air Lines 1203 06:43 PM In Flight
Portland, OR Delta Air Lines 1276 06:43 PM In Flight
Fort Myers, FL Delta Air Lines 488 06:44 PM In Flight
Tallahassee, FL Delta Air Lines 1230 06:44 PM Scheduled
Columbia, SC Delta Air Lines 714 06:47 PM Scheduled
New Orleans, LA Delta Air Lines 1068 06:48 PM Scheduled
San Diego, CA Delta Air Lines 730 06:49 PM In Flight
Los Angeles, CA Delta Air Lines 182 06:49 PM In Flight
Dallas, TX Delta Air Lines 382 06:50 PM In Flight
Washington, DC Delta Air Lines 1696 06:50 PM Scheduled
Baltimore, MD Delta Air Lines 9811 06:50 PM Planned
San Juan, PR Delta Air Lines 300 06:51 PM In Flight
Orlando, FL Delta Air Lines 966 06:52 PM Scheduled
Washington, DC Delta Air Lines 209 06:53 PM In Flight
Tulsa, OK Delta Air Lines 628 06:53 PM Scheduled
Charlotte, NC Delta Air Lines 1182 06:53 PM Scheduled
West Palm Beach, FL Delta Air Lines 798 06:54 PM Scheduled
Tampa, FL Delta Air Lines 898 06:55 PM Scheduled
Houston, TX Delta Air Lines 1547 06:56 PM Scheduled
Seattle, WA Delta Air Lines 528 06:56 PM In Flight
Jacksonville, FL Delta Air Lines 700 06:57 PM Scheduled
Birmingham, AL Delta Air Lines 1659 06:57 PM Scheduled
Philadelphia, PA Delta Air Lines 1677 06:58 PM In Flight
Sacramento, CA Delta Air Lines 598 06:58 PM In Flight
Kansas City, MO Delta Air Lines 770 06:59 PM Scheduled


Pittsburgh, PA Delta Air Lines 601 07:30 PM Scheduled
Baltimore, MD Delta Air Lines 607 07:34 PM Scheduled
New York, NY Delta Air Lines 1431 07:39 PM In Flight
Newark, NJ Delta Air Lines 1565 07:45 PM Scheduled
San Diego, CA Delta Air Lines 9820 07:48 PM In Flight
Boston, MA Delta Air Lines 494 07:50 PM In Flight
Mexico City Delta Air Lines 388 07:50 PM In Flight
Denver, CO Delta Air Lines 1650 07:51 PM Scheduled
Houston, TX Delta Air Lines 863 07:52 PM Scheduled
Washington, DC Delta Air Lines 918 07:56 PM Scheduled
San Antonio, TX Delta Air Lines 1624 07:56 PM Scheduled
New York, NY Delta Air Lines 193 08:00 PM Scheduled

Notice the difference?? With ASA there is about the same difference too between 6:30-7 and 7:30-8.

Why can't Delta change its schedule around a little so that there are less crowded times. Its called depeaking. American Airlines is already doing that at other airports. A runway is designed to handle about 30-40 arrivals in good conditions and 60 departures in good conditions. In IFR conditions its much less. I am not sure about the separation between the nearest parallel runways at ATL, but they can land two aircraft simultaneously on the outer runways and depart simultaneously on the inner runways in good conditions. I know the nearest parallels are less than 4300' apart so they get shut down in IFR conditions and ATL is down to two runways. The third runway does help in IFR conditions, but in good conditions the four runways can be used without problems.

Now back to Delta, being that they have two departure runways that can handle 60 departures an hour each (ideally), Delta thinks it can schedule 120 flights to leave at once, but doesn't factor in that Air Tran and other carriers are using that runway too.

I watched ATL operations and at times there would be hardly anything moving out there, then everything comes in or everything goes out. Delta needs to adjust its schedule and they would find out that they wouldn't have all of these delays and ATL wouldn't need this new runway.

Want to talk about delays? This new runway! Ever see how far out it is going to be. We're talking a 15 minute taxi time at least.

 
GroundStop
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:48 am

RE: New Runway At ATL

Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:51 am

Yes, the airport will be able to handle three simultaneous instrument approaches as well as departures. As far as a 'bottleneck' of planes on the ground...even at peak times, there usually aren't more than three or four aircraft at any given intersection waiting to across the inboard runways. So, that isn't that much of a problem. The new runway will bring the AAR (Arrival Acceptance Rate) up to the level of demand. This will help to reduce airborne holding and lessen the average delay time of Ground Delay Programs, as well as cut down on the number of Ground Stops. From an airline perspective, we'd much rather have a plane on the ground with one engine running holding to taxi, than have a plane circling at RMG for 45+ minutes burning a couple thousand pounds of fuel.

JP
 
DAL7001
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:17 pm

RE: New Runway At ATL

Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:01 am

Actually DL will be depeaking ATL come Jan05. ATL will be a rolling hub and
this will add approx. 100 flights per day.
KATL
 
dl757md
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: New Runway At ATL

Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:24 am

Ever see how far out it is going to be. We're talking a 15 minute taxi time at least.

The new runway is about 1 mile from the south side of the concourses. Even with crossing two runways it won't take anywhere near 15 minutes.
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
Go3Team
Posts: 3156
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:19 am

RE: New Runway At ATL

Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:35 pm

At DFW Sunday, They were using 36L, 35C, 35R, and 31R for arrivals, and 36R, and 35L for departures. The departure queue didn't seem to take too long. It seems that an additional runway at ATL should help.
Yay Pudding!
 
Woodreau
Posts: 2008
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

RE: New Runway At ATL

Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:18 pm

DFW does triple simultaneous approaches with 36L/R, 35L/C, and 35R or it can do triple converging approaches with 36L/R, 35L/C, and 31R.

So triple approaches are possible. DEN probably does the same thing with their N/S runway arrangement.

LAHSO is a option on the runways. At DFW LAHSO 35C at EJ allows landing traffic from 31R to cross without interfering with aircraft landing on 35C. As well as 18R at B allowing traffic from 13R to cross. And 17C at B, allowing 17L traffic to cross
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
767-332ER
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2001 1:20 pm

RE: New Runway At ATL

Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:17 am


The taxi times should be nowhere the length of 15 mins and plus, if the plans go for that terminal in between rwy 9R-27L and 10-28, that should even be less time enroute to the new runway.
Wanna see a long taxi time, try the polderbaan in AMS or 36L in MAD....long taxi times.
Regards
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
BritPilot777
Posts: 998
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:05 am

RE: New Runway At ATL

Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:39 am

Doesnt DTW (Detroit Wayne County) do triple approaches?
Forever Flight
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: New Runway At ATL

Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:54 pm

DTW can do triple approaches in good weather usually using 21L, 22L and 22R, but I don't think they can in IFR conditions. I used to think that 22L and 22R were a mile apart but when I checked thru an aerial photo, they look to only be about 3000 ft. apart and IFR needs at least 4300 separation.
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:25 am

RE: New Runway At ATL

Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:25 am

The way I understood it was that AirTran was going to be using the south runway quite a bit, as it's right near their new terminals (they're going in there, right?), thereby freeing up the other runways a little bit for DL I'd think it'd pull alot of the load off the north side, if they can do 3 parallel ops in VFR weather.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
Tiger119
Posts: 1622
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:52 pm

RE: New Runway At ATL

Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:57 pm

What numbers are they going to use for the new runway and when is it supposed to be completed and operational?
Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
 
GroundStop
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:48 am

RE: New Runway At ATL

Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:52 am

The new runway is to be designated 10-28.

 
phollingsworth
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:05 am

RE: New Runway At ATL

Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:10 am

The way I understood it was that AirTran was going to be using the south runway quite a bit, as it's right near their new terminals (they're going in there, right?), thereby freeing up the other runways a little bit for DL I'd think it'd pull alot of the load off the north side, if they can do 3 parallel ops in VFR weather.


Once 10-28 is operational ATL will be able to have 3 simultaneous approaches during both VMC and IMC. One of the reasons for this will be the installation of a high resolution approach radar. As for Airtran using 10-28. There will be no Southern terminal for a while, it is planned for some time after the Jackson International terminal is finished. Airtran will continue to use the runways based on their destination origin assignment, which will obviously change some from the current configuration.

As for significant increases in good weather operational capacity increases. 10-28 will not do all that much as the South airfield will become taxiway constrained. This could be alleviated by building end-around taxiways on the 9-27 series; however, there is no land for this at the moment. The biggest improvement in capacity will be in IMC where the separation increases sufficiently to alleviate the taxiway congestion. This should greatly reduce marginal weather delays at ATL.

One way to improve the capacity of the inner runways at ATL is to build end-around taxiways. This eliminates most crossing traffic. Unfortunately, as I mentioned above, there is currently only space for this on the North airfield.
 
Tiger119
Posts: 1622
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:52 pm

RE: New Runway At ATL

Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:51 pm

Does anyone think they will lengthen the two 9000 foot runways or is Interstate 85 too close to the field? You would think they (ATL authorities) would want the runways to be as close to the same length as possible.
Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
 
phollingsworth
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:05 am

RE: New Runway At ATL

Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:24 am

Does anyone think they will lengthen the two 9000 foot runways or is Interstate 85 too close to the field? You would think they (ATL authorities) would want the runways to be as close to the same length as possible.

No real reason to. Most of the aircraft operating out of ATL could get away with departing on a 9,000 ft runway without weight restrictions. Further you are not going to use the inner runways for regular approaches. Also needlessly lengthening runways just increases MTC costs.

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