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PAPI
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Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Sun Jan 09, 2005 1:24 pm

Mumbai Airport has installed 19 Visual Docking Guidance Systems from Safegate, Sweden. This will totally replace hand marshalling and PAPA/AGNIS at all aerobridges in Mumbai. Understand that this is a huge help for pilot and co-pilot as either can dock their aircraft. Any feedback would be appreciated.
 
lowrider
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Sun Jan 09, 2005 2:39 pm

The airport may install them, but they cannot force an airline to use them. Even with the guidence systems available, many companies seem to prefer manual marshalling with wing walkers.
Proud OOTSK member
 
57AZ
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Sun Jan 09, 2005 3:03 pm

In general practice it is safer to have a marshaller and their team guide the aircraft to the gate. While the automated system can do a good job, it will do so without taking other issues into consideration. At least with manual operations, the marshaller can stop the aircraft before the wing clips the boom of the de-icing cherry picker, doing hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage ang ruining a bunch of folk's day. Also, on large transport aircraft only the captain can taxi the plane as the tiller is on the left side of the captain's seat. Rudder pedals only control nosewheel/tailwheel steering on smaller planes.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:15 pm

On the 747-400 there is a tiller on both sides...
Fly fast, live slow
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:44 pm

Are you saying the International & Domestic Terminal after Bay #17 are fitted with These systems.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PAPI
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:17 pm

In Mumbai, the systems are installed at all 14 international aerobridges and 5 domestic aerobridges which are only available to Indian Airlines. The private airlines like Jet and Sahara do not have access to any aerobridges.

Re. manual marshalling, this has become quite rare at Mumbai Airport and until now, the only option available to the pilots was the outdated PAPA/AGNIS system.

Given the layout at most Indian airports, the risk of wings clipping any equipment other than the aerobridges is extremely low. However, the new Docking Systems ensure that if the operator selects the wrong aircraft type, the incoming plane is identified and given an Identification Failure/Stop signal at least 12m before his stop position. Hence, it should be extremely safe.
 
Santhosh
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:30 am

After a couple of tries the pilots gets used with the ‘Visual Docking Guidance Systems’ so it must be just as safe as that of the marshalling. But some times manual guidance to the gates may be a bit easier for pilots as they are used to it

Regards,
George
Happy Landings :)
 
willo
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:07 pm

I arrived at Mumbai on an RJ A310 at the end of October. I guess that someone hadn't got the hang of the VDGS as we had to wait a time whilst they found a tug to push us back to a point where the airbridge could reach!!
 
PAPI
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:41 pm

The VDGS was installed only in December 2004 (ICAO recommended deadline for such systems is 31 Dec 2004).

The problem mentioned by Willo should be something of the past now .... unless the pilot goes too far in which case both he and the aerobridge operator will get an indication of just how far the aircraft has rolled.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:16 pm

57AZ,

As far as I know, most widebodied airliners have tillers on both sides. The airliners you mention are smaller ones such as CRJs, 737s etc, although the number of tillers is an option with many of the smaller aircraft.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:21 am

Re. manual marshalling, this has become quite rare at Mumbai Airport
Still very much in existence at Bays covering the 1B Tarmec area Bays #1-16 & 23-40.All Aircraft are manually marshalled in.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
BWI757
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:41 am

A few years ago I had the unique opportunity to visit the FedEx hub in Memphis for a tour. One of the highlights was going into a parked DC-10 and sitting in the cockpit! I noticed outside the window a triangle hanging from a chain, with the bottom of the bar resting on the cockpit window. It was explained to us that this was the "self parking" system they used on the ramp, and that when the bar hit the window, then the crew could shut down. As we made our way around the ramp, the rush was just starting and I do not remember seeing too many marshallers with waving wands. I wonder if this is still in place

BWI757
"Like stars across the sky, we were born to shine" - Andrea Bocelli
 
mirrodie
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:16 am

Are there photos anyone can post to see how these are used? I believe parallax and how are you seated in the aircraft plays a role, right?

I remembe,r when sitting jumpseat a few times, watching how the QF crews used them at Syndey.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:40 am

Bwi757.....Any Pics available.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PAPI
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:31 pm

Here is information on the VDGS installed at Mumbai Airport:

http://www.safegate.com/products.asp?product=dgs
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:40 pm

http://www.safegate.com/products.asp?product=dgs
Fantastic link Rahul.

How is the Aircraft Identified prior to its taxing in to bay,manually or Automatically,If Automatically How.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
buckfifty
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:03 am

I haven't seen a marshaller in quite a long time.

The VDGS's are usually quite good, especially the electronic kind, which gives easy visual cues located right at eye level for most aircraft. But the one in Heathrow T3 is a nightmare. Only works from the left hand seat, and the centreline/park line panels are separated by quite a distance at some gates, which is a visual distraction.
 
Leezyjet
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:26 am

Here is a picture of the AGNIS/PAPA system.


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Leezyjet




The AGNIS is the box under the 0 in 309, and the PAPA is the black board with the a/c types on.

It's had to get a picture of the new style ones as they turn off once the a/c has parked.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
Leezyjet
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:54 am

Would you believe it, I got a chance to take some pics of the AGNIS system in operation the other day for a work project.


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Leezyjet
MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Leezyjet




Hope these are useful to you.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:38 pm

Had an opportunity to watch the new Docking System work on an Emirates A330.Found it to be more better than the AGNIS system.
The question is who sets the Type of Aircraft data in the Machine [Talking of the Docking system]eg if a B777 is to park in bay abc,Who enters that data.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Leezyjet
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:30 pm

Hawk,

At LHR, the Flight Dispatcher usually turn on the guidence system, although it could be a ramp agent or engineer too at some airports.

At MAN, a marsheller comes out and does it, but they use the traffic light system on T2.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
Mr Spaceman
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:27 am

Hi guys.

I have a few questions about a "self parking" system that is similar to the one Bwi757 mentioned (only instead of triangles, this system uses long bars), that was always used at Toronto Intl Airport's Terminal 1. I guess it was used at Terminal 2 as well.

If you look below the number 33 on the catwalk in this first photo you'll see many vertical poles of different heights with horizontal bars at the top. These horizontal bars have black & yellow stripes at their ends (probably made of black & yellow rubber). Well, the appropriate bar for a certain type of airliner would be turned out over the taxi line, and the airliner would slowly roll ahead untill the black & yellow bar touched the cockpit windscreen.

For years, I always loved watching the pilots concentrating on the horizontal bar untill it touched the windscreen. It's a simple method that worked! I believe this system was especially needed for large airliners with high cockpits because eventually the marshaller would become "out of view" under the nose while the aircraft was still rolling forward.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alex G.-Denicourt - Contrails Aviation Photography



In this photo, you can see the bar against the 747's windscreen. In some of the gates at the now gone Terminal 1  Sad , the 747 bar was permanently in place over the taxi line ...... as it was suspended on a very long tight wire.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Binky jabier



Here's 2 more views of this "self parking" system at Toronto Intl (YYZ).


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Kelley
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Carl Rodrigues



My questions are ....... Does this type of Docking Guidance System have a name? Also, is it still used at other Intl Airports around the world? I suspect it would be. Big grin

Thanks,

Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
Mr Spaceman
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:05 am

Hi guys.

Well, regarding my question about what the name is for the "self parking" system that I showed was used at Toronto Intl Airport, I guess I can come up with my own answer ......... it's called "Old Technology". Big grin

Take Care,

Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:20 pm

Rahul....Any plans on Upgrading Terminal 1B with the Docking System at least for the Bays #1 to 16 at Mumbai.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PAPI
Topic Author
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:39 pm

Hi - Jet Airways is extremely keen to have Docking Systems considering the great feedback from the International Terminal (14 aerobrideges) and the Indian Airlines Terminal (5 aerobridges). However, this may take some time.

The photo posted from the UK (of AGNIS and a Docking System) is for an outdated system. However, LHR's Terminal 5 is installing (or perhaps has already installed) the same new systems as Mumbai Airport. Check out the website that I have indicated in one of my earlier posts if anyone is interested to know more about the new Docking Systems.

The system is operated by simply choosing the correct incoming type of aircraft on the operator panel which is located in the aerobridge. In case one chooses the wrong aircraft by mistake (say a 777 instead of a 747), the laser based system will recognize the difference and tell the pilot to STOP as their is an ID FAIL. The operator then has to reselect the correct aircraft and the pilot can move forward once more.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Visual Docking Guidance Systems

Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:12 pm

Jet Airways is extremely keen to have Docking Systems considering the great feedback from the International Terminal (14 aerobrideges) and the Indian Airlines Terminal (5 aerobridges). However, this may take some time.

Installing them for the Fwd bays ie #1-13 is a possibility,it would be difficult to cover #14-16 & the Aft bays.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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