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DAYflyer
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Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:56 am

Since everyone is talking about how boring airplanes are these days (2 engines, widbody, same-ole thing) I wonder if there has ever been a mock-up or proposal to do a widebody with rear fuselage mounted engines, sorta a DC-9 Style aircraft in widebody. Has anyone ever heard-seen such a thing, even on;y if a drawing board proposal????

Is it even possible or practicle to develop that type of aircraft?? If not, why??
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DLKAPA
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:00 am

The engines would need to be very big (and thus very heavy), and the fuselage would need to be very strong in this area to be able to hold the weight. With an extra-heavy back and a light front, the center of gravity would be too far back.

I doubt it's practical.
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gg190
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:08 am

BAC planned to build 1-11 that was similar in size to an A310, that would of course have had rear mounted engines. Looked like a normal 1-11 on steroids.

someone else can probably provide better information about it.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:11 am

The original DC-8 was supposed to be a double-decker wide body with a long straight wings and several engines mounted inside the tail driving a HUGE pusher propeller. Saw it in a magazine once, back in the 1950s.
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doug_or
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:59 am

there was a proposal for a super-dooper VC-10 which was a double decker using the same engine configuration.
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dl757md
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:22 am

It's possible. Practical, well maybe, maybe not. All fuselage mounted engines have been turbojet or low-bypass turbofans. The V-2500 on the MD-90 is the only exception that I can think of. McDonnel Douglas really created a nightmare with the thrust reversers on that plane. They took what is considered a very good engine on the A-320 and made it into a huge mx headache. Perhaps a setup could be engineered that would address the shortcomings of mounting a large turbofan on a horizontal pylon. I just don't see that the advantages would be worth the effort to make it work.

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DfwRevolution
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:04 am

Two issues-

1. Extra reinforcement required to the tail of the aircraft, meaning much more weight. Boeing claimed they saved more than a ton of weight from the 732 by using wing-mounted engines versus tail-mounted

2. Fuselage length can stiphon airflow into the engines. This is the reason the 727-300 ended up with wing-mounted engines and later became the 757-200.
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tito
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:16 am

Quoting DLKAPA (reply 1):
The engines would need to be very big (and thus very heavy), and the fuselage would need to be very strong in this area to be able to hold the weight. With an extra-heavy back and a light front, the center of gravity would be too far back.


The DC-10/MD-11, and L-1011 have one fuselage mounted turbofan. For CG its just a matter of mounting the wing further aft on the fuselage like any other rear engined a/c.

Quoting Dl757md (reply 5):
All fuselage mounted engines have been turbojet or low-bypass turbofans. The V-2500 on the MD-90 is the only exception that I can think of.


MD-95 (717), CRJ, ERJ all have high bypass turbofans. Probably not so much a weight issue as much as general design preference after weighing pros and cons of the configuration. As far as strength of a horizontal pylon... the VC-10 held two seemingly heavy engines on each pylon, and seemed to do fine.
Then there were the plans for Ultra High Bypass engines which both Boeing and MD planned to mount on the fuse. (the original MD-90?) and the 7J7. neither of which were wide bodies though.

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/flat_fi.../space/space0604boeing/slide1.html
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:39 am

Quoting Tito (reply 7):
Then there were the plans for Ultra High Bypass engines which both Boeing and MD planned to mount on the fuse. (the original MD-90?) and the 7J7. neither of which were wide bodies though.


The 7J7 was indeed a widebody, would have seated 2+2+2 in economy. Would have been wider than an A320, narrower than a 767.

The MD UHB concept was dubbed the MD-91/94

Quoting Tito (reply 7):
Probably not so much a weight issue as much as general design preference after weighing pros and cons of the configuration


One of the cons being the weight issue  Big grin
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:40 am

The Yakovlev 42 has also three rear mounted high bypass engines.

Jan
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flyf15
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:18 am

Theres that huge Russian ground-effect plane that has 8 engines mounted on the nose....can't remember the name though.
 
Klaus
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:32 am

Flyf15: Theres that huge Russian ground-effect plane that has 8 engines mounted on the nose....can't remember the name though.

That was the Ekranoplan.
 
DeskPilot
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:15 pm

Quoting Klaus (reply 11):
That was the Ekranoplan.


What a beauty that one is - not many pictures around that I've found.
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lehpron
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:44 pm

Like everyone has said, weight issue. Wasn't it an issue if balance as well, that's why corporate jets mostly have that engine arraignment, their small anyway?

Quoting Klaus (reply 11):
That was the Ekranoplan


I can't believe that thing flew (or maybe ground effected) in the 1960's, seems to me like an 1980's idea. What was the original purpose, replace battleships?
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tito
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:15 pm

Quoting Lehpron (reply 13):
asn't it an issue if balance as well, that's why corporate jets mostly have that engine arraignment, their small anyway?


It does seem to be the predominant configuration on smaller jets, I've always wondered why. Perhaps any additional structural weight in the fuselage and tail on the smaller jet is offset by being able to have smaller/shorter landing gear saving some weight but also making it easier to service, integrate an airstair and not requiring slides.

I think the weight savings with wing mounted engines are more easily seen on the larger aircraft. In addition to the structure to support pylons, the vertical stab must be beefed up to support the horizontal stabilizer as rear engines necessitate a T or cruciform tail. The wing might also benefit weight wise as the hanging engines would help alleviate some bending moment allowing a lighter structure. Hence Boeing saving over a ton on the 757 as DfwRevolution pointed out.
 
paulc
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:50 pm

There was a VC10 aircraft which was used as a flying testbed for the RB211 - 2 RR conways on the starboard side with 1 RB211 on the port side.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 11):
That was the Ekranoplan.

Any Link.
regds
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Starlionblue
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:55 am

The wing might also benefit weight wise as the hanging engines would help alleviate some bending moment allowing a lighter structure.

This is a good point, and often missed. Wing mounted engines often mean a lighter wing overall.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Klaus
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RE: Widebody With Fus Mounted Engines?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:27 am

Lehpron: I can't believe that thing flew (or maybe ground effected) in the 1960's, seems to me like an 1980's idea. What was the original purpose, replace battleships?

That seemed to have been one application, another idea seems to have been use as a troop transporter. The Ekranoplan didn´t need airfields or harbours and flew below the radar...

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