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Jeff714
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Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:26 am

I was watching the planes depart at LAX this afternoon and when a 737 passed overhead it got me thinking - are the tires still spinning when the gear is raised and if so, are they still spinning when the gear doors are shut?

As I said, this isn't the brightest question ever asked.
 
DColeMAN
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:38 am

Correct, your eyes weren't playing tricks on you, the wheels were still spinning. I've heard a couple of times that the pilot quickly hits the brakes just before bringing the gear up to stop them spinning and apparently it's on the standard takeoff procedure checklist? Quote me if I'm wrong but that's only what I've heard  Smile

Dale
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calpilot
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:51 am

No,

Most modern airliners, automatically apply breaks to main wheel tires on retraction. While nose gear uses contact with a "snubber" to stop it.

Whoever told you that that pilot touches the breaks was seriously out of the loop on that one.

Quoting DColeMAN (Reply 1):
the pilot quickly hits the brakes just before bringing the gear up to stop them spinning and apparently
 
air2gxs
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:02 am

As stated most airliners, if not all, port hydraulic pressure to the brakes when the gear selector is moved to the up position. Nose wheels are stopped by friction pads.

The reason for this? So that you don't have a large spinning mass entering the wheel well. If a tire had shredded itself on take-off, you certainly don't want that entering the wheel well spinning. I've also heard it was to reduce the gyroscopic effect all those wheels spinning may have, but, I don't really buy into that.
 
DColeMAN
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:11 am

Quote:
Whoever told you that that pilot touches the breaks was seriously out of the loop on that one.

Yeah I thought that didn't sound right when I first heard it but thanks for clearing it up  Smile

Dale
Topless Women Drink 4 Free
 
SATL382G
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:23 am

Quoting Air2gxs (Reply 3):
The reason for this? So that you don't have a large spinning mass entering the wheel well. If a tire had shredded itself on take-off, you certainly don't want that entering the wheel well spinning. I've also heard it was to reduce the gyroscopic effect all those wheels spinning may have, but, I don't really buy into that.

Not to mention that on the subject 737 the main landing gear doors seal up tight to the tires..... Spinning tires would wear out those seals real quick....
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
SlamClick
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:37 am

IIRC on the 737 when Landing Gear UP is selected the system ports the gear downline fluid to the retract brakes to stop the mains, and, as has been noted, uses a snubber on the nosewheels.

Early 737s had a "tire screen" which was a tubular steel frame on a hinge with nylon webbing strung across it like a patio chair. It was to shield the hydraulic reservoirs, spoiler-aileron mixing levers and other critical components located in the wheel well from damage should a tire come apart. It was one of the "DOORS" annunciator lights (the dark one today)

It is a good idea to stop the rotation as the clearances in gear wells can be tight and penalties exist for breaking things in there.

On some light planes, (Cessna taildraggers come to mind) we would sometimes touch the brakes right after takeoff because a slightly unbalanced tire would start that spring landing gear to vibrating.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
troubleshooter
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:12 pm

On the 737NG you´ll find items called "frangible fittings". They break off if a damaged and rotating (gear up brake not working) tire enters the wheel well and bleed the landing gear "up" lines. The gear falls down by gravity. A hydraulic fuse closes the landing gear supply line to prevent major fluid loss. Nice gimmick if you ask me!
This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
 
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777wt
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:53 pm

Quoting Air2gxs (Reply 3):
I've also heard it was to reduce the gyroscopic effect all those wheels spinning may have, but, I don't really buy into that.

Ever took a front bicycle wheel off and spin it at high speed while holding the shaft with your hands and turn it sideways simulating retracting?
There is force and it's hard to keep it stable in the path you want it to go.

Now think about doing that with a big one  bouncy 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:53 pm

Quoting Jeff714 (Thread starter):
are the tires still spinning when the gear is raised and if so, are they still spinning when the gear doors are shut

Yes Still Spinning on T/O.But Autoretract braking for the MLG & Snubber Pads in the NWW for the NLG assy stops the spinning when Gear handle is retracted to avoid damage to Hydraulic components & Cables in the WWs.

Quoting DColeMAN (Reply 1):
I've heard a couple of times that the pilot quickly hits the brakes just before bringing the gear up to stop them spinning and apparently it's on the standard takeoff procedure checklist



Quoting Air2gxs (Reply 3):
I've heard a couple of times that the pilot quickly hits the brakes just before bringing the gear up to stop them spinning and apparently it's on the standard takeoff procedure checklist

If Autoretract braking is present,theres no need.

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 5):
Spinning tires would wear out those seals real quick....

The main concern is the Components in the WWs.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 6):
Early 737s had a "tire screen" which was a tubular steel frame on a hinge with nylon webbing strung across it like a patio chair. It was to shield the hydraulic reservoirs, spoiler-aileron mixing levers and other critical components located in the wheel well from damage should a tire come apart. It was one of the "DOORS" annunciator lights (the dark one today)

Why was the Tire burst screen later deleted on later versions.Did the study prove it was not needed.

Quoting Troubleshooter (Reply 7):
On the 737NG you´ll find items called "frangible fittings

Nice device.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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longhauler
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:49 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
Why was the Tire burst screen later deleted on later versions.Did the study prove it was not needed.

It was too unreliable. While the theory of protecting the hydraulic system tank under the screen makes sense, attaching it to a warning (Doors, in this case) in the cockpit did not. With the B737s that I flew, the warning went off so often, it started to be ignored.

Or if you just did a heavy takeoff from say Resolute Bay, with 3 1/2 hours to Montreal, and it sounded ... do you turn around and do an overweight landing onto an icy runway with no maintenance facilities, knowing it is likely a false alarm? Or do you just continue to Montreal?

When the newer B737s were built without the tire screens, they started to be removed from the older ones.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
aogdesk
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:55 pm

Quoting Air2gxs (Reply 3):
I've also heard it was to reduce the gyroscopic effect all those wheels spinning may have

I could believe that the gyro effect would be substantial with all those wheels turning......."UPS heavy 6702 turn right heading 050".........."I can't......trying ugh.......hard to turn''  Smile
 
aogdesk
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:56 pm

Actually, the original post was a very good question.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 10):
With the B737s that I flew, the warning went off so often, it started to be ignored.

.Couldn't the Proximity sw gap be adjusted by Mx.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 10):
When the newer B737s were built without the tire screens, they started to be removed from the older ones.

Exactly.What prompted their removal.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Salukipilot
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:42 am

Quoting DColeMAN (Reply 1):
I've heard a couple of times that the pilot quickly hits the brakes just before bringing the gear up to stop them spinning and apparently it's on the standard takeoff procedure checklist?

RIght-o man! This IS on a checklist however it is not for the larger A/C out there. I'll use the Cessna 172/182RG models to show you the point. When you lift off the pavement the tires are spinning at some 60 mph. I know that doesnt sound like much but have you ever seen the tires on a top fuel dragster? See what happens when they jet off the line? The expand. Big time. Same thing with these tires. When they expand they do not fit into the gear well and there could be a problem. Anyhoo, right after you lift off and are sure that a safe landing could not be made on the remaining runway you tap the brakes and lift the gear. That is why we do it in the RG models here at SIU. The big guys might be a little different but thats my  twocents 


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Matt72033
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:26 am

whats this snubber you guys talk of? where is it located exactly? do they wear out quickly?
 
SlamClick
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 15):
whats this snubber you guys talk of? where is it located exactly? do they wear out quickly?

The only one I can picture in my mind's eye at the moment is the DC-9. I guess I spent more time in its wheelwells than any other type. Smile

The snubbers on the old Douglas Racer were loops of some kind of belting material with metal riveted on to retard wear. They were mounted on a bulkhead in the NW well in a place where the tread of the tires would come into contact with them. They were stiff and just used friction to bring the wheels to a stop quicker than they would have otherwise.

I can remember many a Flap-10 takeoff in the -10 series with really high rotation speeds. When the nosegear came up you'd hear it hit the snubbers and you could actually smell hot rubber!

You might try a photo search for DC-9 and "nose closeup" and you might catch a shot with the gear doors open. (there are two, strutted to the landing gear leg and two more forward that open to permit passage but are closed for UP and locked and DOWN and locked. If you get a shot with these forward two open you might see it up there.

The other thing with the DC-9 was that the direct-viewing window for the nosegear downlocks was right next to the snubbers and got covered with rubber particles all the time. If it wasn't wiped off, you could not verify the gear locked down.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
air2gxs
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 15):
whats this snubber you guys talk of? where is it located exactly? do they wear out quickly?

I assume you mean the reference to the nose tire snubber. Basically, they are 2 pieces of some composite material that are attached to a spring arm which in turn is attached to the ceiling of the nose wheel well. The spinning wheel comes in contact with the pad and stops turning. They are also called spin brakes or friction pads. And yes, they do wear out.

After reading the AMM, I find that there is a newer type that uses aluminum wear bars, which can be replaced independently instead of changing the whole pad.
 
Matt72033
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:00 am

hmmmm.....thanks for the detailed explantions! doesent sound to healthy for the tyres! could you see a groove in them that the snubber had caused over time?
 
fspilot747
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:07 am

Well......they weren't entirely out of the loop. We tap the breaks on the ol' Arrow before retracting  Wink
 
air2gxs
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:14 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 18):
hmmmm.....thanks for the detailed explantions! doesent sound to healthy for the tyres! could you see a groove in them that the snubber had caused over time?

No, the spin brake is about 8in X 10in. And it is the abradable material, not the tire, though you do seem to get a little rubber on brake.
 
goboeing
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:49 am

I have a cockpit video of a takeoff at this airport:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nick Onkow
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Kyle Donagher



In this type of aircraft:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Maier



The rotation speed was high and as we left the ground it was about 170 knots TAS because of the load and high altitude if I remember correctly. As the departure end of the runway passes below in the left turn, the snubbers get quite loud as the gear is retracted! If anyone would like to see the video you can contact me through my profile. I had wondered if that sound in the air was the same as the sound on the runway, but I guess the runway sound was more of a shimmy noise. I had been told the nosewheel tire speed limit on the B-757 is 192 knots.

Jeff714 I am glad you asked the "really dumb" question. It turned out to be an informative discussion as usual.
 
2H4
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:06 pm




Quoting SlamClick (Reply 6):
Early 737s had a "tire screen" which was a tubular steel frame on a hinge with nylon webbing strung across it like a patio chair. It was to shield the hydraulic reservoirs, spoiler-aileron mixing levers and other critical components located in the wheel well from damage should a tire come apart.











...And our friends, the tire snubbers:


http://www.b737.org.uk/wheelwellnose_ng_labelled.jpg




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:18 pm

The snubber pads are not visable in the above pic but the Spring arms to the Snubber .
Trying to find a more descriptive pic.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
L-188
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:46 pm

Systems to apply the brakes and stop tire rotation are not new.

I remember reading a story about a vet that got baddly burned in a C-107, which was a B-24 converted into a tanker for flying avgas over the "Hump" to China.

Story is that the B-24 had a system that would apply the brakes on selection of gear up. Anyway this plane, oddly enough taking off loaded with a couple thousand gallons of hi-octane, started to get light on the wheels, light enough that the crew thought that they where airborne and threw the switch to raise the gear. This caused the brakes to apply and it was enough to crash the airplane off the end of the runway burning everybody up except for this guy, who got out with 60 or 70% burns.

Amazing that he made it.
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abbs380
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:53 pm

Im not sure about a/c with 2 wheels per mlg, but on a/c with four wheels per mlg, you can usually MEL at least one brake if it is leaking or worn to limits. To do this you remove and/or cap off the hydraulic lines to that brake. Obviously then, porting pressure to the brakes during gear retraction would not stop that wheel/s rotation. To cover this, there is an operating procedure which must be written into the a/c log book each time a brake is deferred. It reads something like this, "No. (X) brake inoperative, leave landing gear down for one minute after takeoff before gear retraction). Now, I suspect pilots would have there own opinion about what would be their primary concern about the wisest course of action in the event of an engine failure after vr, but IM pretty sure that is what al least some MEL/S say.
 
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ZSOFN
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:22 pm

Interestingly I looked into why a system was not developed to get the wheels spinning before landing, minimising tyre wear and risk of blowout. Eventually discovered that it is in fact the huge centrifugal forces from the spinning wheels that would make even large aircraft very difficult to handle on approach. Thought that was quite interesting...
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:50 pm

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 26):

Even to add.It would be difficult to get the wheels spinning to the required speed at touchdown,so tyre wear would be unavoidable.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
jetstar
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 16):
I can remember many a Flap-10 takeoff in the -10 series with really high rotation speeds. When the nosegear came up you'd hear it hit the snubbers and you could actually smell hot rubber

The nose wheel snubber on the DC-9 is a throw back to the older DC aircraft days. I got a ride in the cockpit on a military C-54 one day, which was a DC-4 and after takeoff you could smell the rubber in the cockpit from the nose wheel snubber. This same system was used on the DC-6 and DC-7 airplanes as well. I am not sure of the DC-8.

Quoting Salukipilot (Reply 14):
I'll use the Cessna 172/182RG models to show you the point. When you lift off the pavement the tires are spinning at some 60 mph. I know that doesn't sound like much but have you ever seen the tires on a top fuel dragster? See what happens when they jet off the line? The expand. Big time. Same thing with these tires. When they expand they do not fit into the gear well and there could be a problem

I worked on small Cessna’s and other general aviation aircraft for over 10 years and never heard of a problem of the tires expanding when taking off at 60 mph. In a top fuel dragster, those tires are spinning at around 250 mph or more and have the engine torque to keep them spinning. The only problem I heard about was on some singe engine retractable airplanes there was a restriction on using recapped tires because they were oversize to begin with and could jam in the wheel wells.

I have also owned a C-150 for over 30 years and after take off I would step on the brakes to stop the tire rotation, if I didn't they would start to shake the airplane because the spring steel landing gear did not have any way to dampen the vibrations. Airplanes with oleo struts do not have this problem because the oleo strut is a shock absorber.

One time I had a bad nose wheel shimmy when the nose wheel touched down. After doing the obvious items like rebuilding the nose wheel shimmy damper and reshimming the nose strut and drag links, the shimmy was still as bad. In the shop where I worked we had an electric dynamic tire balancer, this was the days before computer tire balancing. We used this machine to spin balance the nose wheels of some the corporate jets that were based on the airport. I put my nose wheel on the balancer and found it was out of balance.

Small airplane wheels have no provisions to add balance weights so I used some of the heavy putty we used to first balance the jet wheels with and temporally balanced it and flew the airplane. By balancing the tire the shimmy disappeared so this was the cause of the shimmy. Instead of buying a new tire I tried a different method of balancing the tire. All small airplane tires are tube type, when installing the tube in the tire we usually mounted the tire stem, which is the heaviest part of the tube opposite the red dot on the sidewall, which indicated the heavy part of the tire. What I did was to rotate the tube to a different position on the wheel until I found the least out of balance position, this solved the shimmy problem and saved me the cost of a new tire.

On the Lockheed JetStar, there was no automatic brake system to stop the wheels during landing gear retraction. The JetStar had a 4 rotor/stator disc brake and there was some drag just from the inertia of the brakes on the wheel. When I changed a tire using a small jack under the landing gear, to make sure the tire was clear and the brake rotor tangs were engaged in the wheel keyways I would manually spin the wheel assembly. The wheel assembly would rotate only about one turn because of all the drag from the brake assembly. After takeoff it would require a lot of energy to keep the wheels spinning at takeoff speeds and with all the drag from the weight of the brake rotors it would immediately start to slow down the tire rotation.

The JetStar nose wheels required balancing, which was done by the shop I formally worked for. One unique feature on the JetStar was that both nose wheels were locked together with a shaft through the axle and turned as one unit. Because of this when the nose wheels were mounted on the airplane, we would install one wheel with the tire stem 180 degrees out from the other wheel tire stem to prevent any vibration. The nose wheels were always changed as a set, if one had a cut in it both had to be changed. I never found out why Lockheed designed it this way, all the other airplanes I worked on that had dual nose wheels, they were free spinning.
 
erj-145mech
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:41 am

Quoting Jetstar (Reply 28):
All small airplane tires are tube type, when installing the tube in the tire we usually mounted the tire stem, which is the heaviest part of the tube opposite the red dot on the sidewall, which indicated the heavy part of the tire.

Actually, the red dot is the lightest point on the tire casing. That is lined up with either a yellow dash on the tube or the valve stem, if the tube doesn't have the dash. This is per the Goodyear Tire Service Manual.
 
Airgypsy
Posts: 130
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:34 am

Love those nasty, dirty nose wheel retarders. An F-105 I worked on had an Anti-Spin brake failure and ther tires chewed through some wire bundles in the wheel wells and the left drop tank departed the aircraft on takeoff. The right pylon stayed on but the connections to it were cut.
The 727 had hydraulic nose wheel brakes for anti-spin. You can still see the mount points on the older models and find the brake part numbers in the IPC. Only used for retraction. They were not used for landing. Great source of practical joking with new mechanics.
A pilot report of the instrument panel shaking and hard to read was a good clue that the retarder (one or both) and been broken or no longer had enough "spring" in them to effectively press against the tires and slow them.
Nasty stuff when you throw in a little grease from the other stuff in the wheel well. Yep, just throw that rag away after cleaning the little window.
Airgypsy
 
LPLAspotter
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting Jeff714 (Thread starter):
As I said, this isn't the brightest question ever asked

That's just the problem with this site. Everyone is afraid of being flamed by asking a question (this is especially true in the "Civil Aviation" site). Let everyone ask a question and if you think it is dumb then don't answer it
LPLAspotter
PS: I don't know, good question about the wheels
Nuke the Gay Wales for Christ
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:36 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 15):
whats this snubber you guys talk of? where is it located exactly? do they wear out quickly?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/HAWK21M/snubbers.jpg
Picture of the B737 NWW Snubber assys.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Klaus
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RE: Really Dumb Spinning Tire Question.

Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:28 am

Very good... I´ve always wanted to know what the snubbers looked like, exactly.  Smile

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