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SlamClick
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Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:30 am

Been doing some thinking about something I've observed occasionally over my forty years at the airport.

Some mechanics really seem to dislike pilots.

I don't mean taking a well-deserved dislike to an arrogant bastard skygod, we all do that. I mean an unreasoning, bigoted dislike. I've even heard it from an enlisted crewmember of the Blue Angels with the old line: "You need a college education to break airplanes but only high school to fix them." which was funny the first time, but not at all accurate. (You need the college to become a pilot and it is not like the JOB of pilots is to break airplanes.)

Not all mechanics have this, of course, in fact most don't. One of the best friends I've had over the years and the all-time best room mate (other than my wife) was a mechanic. But there is enough of it out there to make me wonder where it comes from.

I know some pilots bring this on themselves with the apparent attitude that there are only pilots and people who wish they were pilots, which is absurd. But does it spring from something else?

When I was training to be a crewchief/door gunner on the Huey there were instructors who badmouthed pilots constantly. I thought that was some officer/enlisted crap that you find in any unit or MOS but we students did get an earful of it.

What is it like in A&P school? Do you hear that?

Like to hear from pilots and mechanics on this.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
AGM114L
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting SlamClick (Thread starter):
When I was training to be a crewchief/door gunner on the Huey there were instructors who badmouthed pilots constantly. I thought that was some officer/enlisted crap that you find in any unit or MOS but we students did get an earful of it.

I think I spend about $300 a year buying breakfast or beer for our 15R's(crewchiefs), they are definately the driving force behind any troop and a most thankless job. Every time I land I always feel a little bit guilty cause these guys/gals are always there to recover the helicopter, tie it up and spend hours, sometimes all night postflighting and doing repairs, while I get to go have all the fun flying THEIR aircraft.
Their is some anamosity among the crew cheifs about us pilots getting our required "bueaty sleep" and air conditioned tents, but all in all it never became an issue. Alot of time the chiefs didn't realize the amount of time and effort that pilots put into mission planning and preperation, and that we are on call all the time so we need to avoid becoming unnessisarily fatigued.
The most impressive thing I've ever seen a 15R do was when our we were at a FARP and shut down an engine to refuel and re-arm while the other engine was at idle and the rotor at flat pitch. Well we couldn't restart the engine because its air turbine starter was damaged by small arms fire. We shut down the other engine and did a lockstart (start with the rotor break on), while the crewchief took off the functional starter off the good engine while the engine was running at idle and installed it on the other one so we start that engine. The most impressive thing was this was his idea and it only took 10 minutes to do it. He took considerable risk working on a running engine with only 3400psi rotor brake keeping the rotor from chopping his head off. Needless to say I baught him a bottle of JD when we got back from deployment.
My Boeing can blow up your Boeing
 
EMBQA
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:18 am

Slam-

As a 10+ year Part 121 A&P I've had my dealings with flight crews and in some ways feel the way you have talked about. I will first start off by saying I have worked with some great crews. Crews that would do anything to help the company make the flight. They used common sense and were a pure pleasure to work with. They knew the airplane and would work well with us in maintenance when called. Sadly, they are over shadowed by the minority of those crews that just did not like to fly and would do what ever they could to stay on the ground. I have seen crews write up some very stupid things....and no, these are not flight critical issues. I once saw a Captain ground a flight in a city because he had a date in that town with a Gate Agent. No, I'm not kidding. I had to chase a plane on Jan 1, 1998 in a snow storm because a Capt refused to take a plane with a deferred item in the log book. The deferred item was correctly documented and again not a safety of flight issue. He just didn't want to fly with it. He spent New Years some place warm and dry, while I was ankle deep in cold glycol, slush, driving snow, no to no sleep for almost 36 hours and no heat while I worked the problem. The arrogance that came out of the mouths of some of these crews if I would not have been fired I would have punched them right in the mouth. I guess for me it's the old saying.. "One bad apple will spoil the whole bunch"

[Edited 2005-10-15 23:25:57]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
amtrosie
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:15 am

It is already starting to show in the responses. My biggest gripe (reflected here) is our judgement of an issue is negated, and to add insult to injury, we end up having to bust a$#@ to fix the issue while the pilot walks away! It is with a certain degree of disgust/envy we then have to work in VERY unpleasant conditions. These issues never come up at a maintenance base (near a hanger), but always way out in bum [email protected]!#$ egypt on the most miserable night of the year.

There is also the sight of a thankful passenger, thanking the flight crew for a "wonderful" flight. Then have that same passenger look with disgust/disdain at the AMT awaiting to debrief the flight crew. Pilots--How many times at the completion of your flight, in your final remarks, asked the passenger to thank the mechanic at the jetway for helping to ensure a SAFE and UNEVENTFUL flight?


All that being said, the idiots not-withstanding, the flight crews are not hated but mostly respected. It is usually the older, wiser pilots that have gained an appreciation for our jobs that have gained our respect.

I have noticed a large contingent of newly minted pilots who have absolutely no regard/respect for the wrenches that have to deal with stuck-up ways
 
pilotpip
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:09 pm

For the record, this young guy has the utmost respect for you wrench benders. While we are the ones that are responsible for the flight, you are the ones that are responsible for making sure we make that flight. I think it's a shame to all parties involved that some pilots still have this "skygod" complex and expect the mechanic to be waiting at the gate with rag and spray bottle in hand to clean the windshield.

I see the same attitude towards fuelers. It seems that the ones that are jerks are the ones that haven't had to work for anything they've accomplished. For the rest of us who worked second and third jobs doing things like ramp work we appreciate the hard work of all those on the ground a little more.
DMI
 
G4Doc2004
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:56 pm

I'll chime in here...I'll say that 99% of the pilots I have met as a mechanic have respect for their fellow MX department. Only a small handfull I have met have the God complex, and they were not the most popular people in the company.
At my flight department, flight ops and Mx constantly trade jibes about each other about Mx issues or a plane coming back with squawks. I fully respect what the pilots do and the training they face. And they in turn respect us. Both flight and Mx go to Flight Safety for initial and recurrent training on everything we touch. I go to G-IV recurrent Mx in Dec and Cessna Sovereign recurrent in January 2006( I know, Wichita in the winter...yuk) A lot of times we are there simultaneously and we get a taste of what he other is going thru. I personally am a pilot, so I see the flip side. It all boils down to mutual respect and most of all, TRUST.
"Failure to prepare is preparing to fail"--Benjamin Franklin
 
Dougloid
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:49 pm

Whoo-hoo!

I've been out of it since 1992 but I keep in touch with some of my pals who are still wrenching it...
I think the key difference is that as mechanics we understand that respect is not automatically given but has to be earned.

Most pilots understand that as well because in the cockpit, the ultimate truth is that respect has to be earned.

Maybe what it is, is that what we do is different, and we all expect that the respect we have earned from our peers should be granted as of right by every Tom Dick and Harry that ever put on a Cap'ns uniform. The pilots in turn feel the same way. We inhabit different worlds and respect is earned in different ways...being a fuckup is no way to earn respect as a mechanic-it gets you fired when you break something expensive-but it does appear that a pilot can be a fuckup a lot longer before it comes out in the wash.

The ringers in the bunch are the ones that figure "I'm paid 4 times as much as you that means I'm at least five times better than you, boy."
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:49 pm

Out here.Its Similiar.
There are Bad apples in both places & it shows.
However at My current job.The Relationship between Pilots/AMEs are Fantastic.I have some very good pilot friends at work that continue outside work as well.
We have regular Meetings between both Depts to discuss Recurrent snags & that helps in better Working Atmosphere.

There are few from Mx that feel Pilots get the Cushy time sipping coffee while they are stuck in bad weather rectifying a snag that could be deffered.While some pilots have that Im the Boss attitude,keep your dirty hands away from me look.

However The solution depends on the Individual & the way they look at things positively.Out here I learn from Pilots about certain Information that I'm not aware of & they ask me about Mx.
That way both learn.

The smaller the Organisation the better will be the relation between Flt Ops & Mx.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
stirling
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:19 pm

I noticed something, may or not be true.

The level of *respect* a pilot has for mechanics is in direct proportion to the age of the aircraft.

From my limited perspective, it seemed like the B-52 pilots treated their mechanics much better than the B-1B pilots did theirs.

And it went the other way too...some techs in the B-1B shops looked at the flight crews as glorified baby-sitters....which is in no way true; but since most if not all crews, both flight and ground, transitioned over from B-52 squadrons; the B-1B was so much easier to fly and work on when compared to my favorite old gal! (What I wouldn't give to have just ONE more date with her!)

Just my views, remember, it's been a long time since I've been in, and the memory is the first thing to go, or is it, uh, what is the first to, what does that first thing do again? Can I have a sandwich please?
Oh. Sorry, wrong forum.
Delete this User
 
atlamt
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:31 pm

I have to say that 99.9% of the flight crews that I've dealt with have been great. But as others have said it only takes one to leave a bad impression burnt into your memory.

That being said one captain really stands out for something nice he said. We were on the flight home after an all night road trip. After takeoff the crew did the normal welcome aboard thing. But when he finished he said "Ladies and gentlemen I'm sure you noticed the two mechanics onboard the aircraft this morning. They worked through the night to have this airplane ready for us this morning. I think a round of applause is in order. Thanks guys." It caught me so off guard I didn't know what to think.
Fwd to MEL and Placard
 
GDB
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:57 pm

HAWK21M raises a point I can relate to.
When I was in BA Concorde Engineering, we had a very close relationship with crews.
Though a large airline, we were a small group within it.
This was largely in the minor maintenance/casualty area, unlike the rest of the BA fleet, we went over the terminals from the hangar to depart the aircraft and meet the incomers.
Due to the unique nature of the type.

Also, many of my colleagues had been on the type since the start of it's service, in quite a few cases, they'd also been at BAC during construction and testing.
Many crew were long time veterans too, so inevitable that people from both sides would know each other well, training details to places like PIK, SNN and us providing 'flying spanners' for extended charters, or just to places where there was no Concorde qualified personnel.

Flight crew coming to the hangars was usual, there were social events for Concorde people too, usually involving ground and aircrew.

In 1999, a new Capt on the fleet, had the habit of only talking to the ground engineer through the E/O.
Which annoyed plenty of the experienced ground staff.
But this was the exception, the person concerned soon modified his attitude as well, though having to divert twice within a short period of time might have had something to do with this!
 
amtrosie
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:27 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 6):
The ringers in the bunch are the ones that figure "I'm paid 4 times as much as you that means I'm at least five times better than you, boy."

Oh, how true!!

Quoting ATLAMT (Reply 9):
That being said one captain really stands out for something nice he said. We were on the flight home after an all night road trip. After takeoff the crew did the normal welcome aboard thing. But when he finished he said "Ladies and gentlemen I'm sure you noticed the two mechanics onboard the aircraft this morning. They worked through the night to have this airplane ready for us this morning. I think a round of applause is in order. Thanks guys." It caught me so off guard I didn't know what to think.

WOW!!! I have never heard of that happening, much less happening to me on my many trips afar. Hats off to that Capt.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 7):
The smaller the Organisation the better will be the relation between Flt Ops & Mx.

Not neccessarily true, although the intimate relationship does allow each party to get to know each other and from that does come respect.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 8):
The level of *respect* a pilot has for mechanics is in direct proportion to the age of the aircraft.

Interesting observation. The more I think about it, the more it is ringing true.
 
Buzz
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:29 am

Hi Slamclick, Buzz here. Where i am it seems that about 20% of the pilots are "real" airplane people, who are here becaus they love to fly and will help you fix whatever they can.
The rest are pretty much adequate to do the job, but nothing special.
And on each crew there's ususally one mechanic who fixes / flies other airplanes when he's off duty.
And when some of them complain about oil leaks on the morning walk-around, i can smile when i say "That's not much of a drip, i work on Radial engines".

A couple years ago, a Sky-God came into the Mechanic's Ready Room to ask about the airplane he was going to fly. After we answered his questions we started making a list of what seperates a "Sky-God" from a good mechanic. E-mail me off line if you's like a copy.
g'day
Buzz Fuselsausage: Line Mechanic by night, DC-3 Crew Chief by choice, taildragger pilot for fun.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting ATLAMT (Reply 9):
We were on the flight home after an all night road trip. After takeoff the crew did the normal welcome aboard thing. But when he finished he said "Ladies and gentlemen I'm sure you noticed the two mechanics onboard the aircraft this morning. They worked through the night to have this airplane ready for us this morning. I think a round of applause is in order. Thanks guys." It caught me so off guard I didn't know what to think.

Thats a great gesture.

Quoting Buzz (Reply 12):
After we answered his questions we started making a list of what seperates a "Sky-God" from a good mechanic

Don't tell me after he finished,The tools were heading towards him  Smile
Mike...Dont forget to Email that List.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
saintsman
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:25 pm

I think a lot of it starts with the military. Pilots, particularly fighter pilots, are taught from day one that they are elite. The whole reason for an airforce is to fly aeroplanes so they think they are the top people in the whole organisation. I've seen too many pilots look down their noses at the rest of us.

The other one was pilots who used to carry snags all week and present them to us on a Friday afternoon. They had a nice relaxing weekend whilst we had to work it so they could do exactly the same the next week.

I once knew some test pilots though who used to come into the hangar to find out how we were getting on. What they didn't know about the aircraft wasn't worth knowing and they often had suggestions when we had problems trying to find the cause of a particular fault. I can't recall many other pilots visiting the hangar throughout my career.

Of course there are lots of good pilots, like the ones on helicopters who used to come back with an autopilot fault. They would pick us up, show us exactly what the problem was because they knew we would be unable to reproduce it on the ground.

Who is the most important person? Is it the pilot, the engineer or someone like the cleaner who tidies up the aircraft before the next lot of passengers board?It is a team effort at the end of the day and we are all working for the same thing. We should all remember that.
 
VC-10
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:21 pm

In my experience the barriers between Pilots & Engineers is breaking down. When I started in '73 most pilots were ex-military and there was some eliteism amongst some pilots, but these day as more pilots work their way up from the bottom, having had to pay for their training themselves they are more in touch with reality.

When the independant airline I worked for was taken over by BA there was a very noticable difference in attitude towards the engineers by BA pilots as compared to the ex-independant pilots. The BA crews were much more aloof.

Still, as I was once told "they can make automatic pilots, but they can't make automatic engineers".

Somebody else I knew said "Just remember they put their pants on the same way you do in the mornings!"
 
WrenchBender
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:13 pm

Quoting Saintsman (Reply 14):
I think a lot of it starts with the military. Pilots, particularly fighter pilots, are taught from day one that they are elite.

I am still in the military, and yes that still applies. I have found that crewed A/C pilots have a better relationship than single seat pilots with the maint side of the house.
I have dealt with a lot of young first tour guys over the years both techs and operators and if you teach them right the attitudes that are developed then last a lifetime.
1. Send your young techs flying when ever you can, let them see what its like on the road.
2. Invite the pilots to help out on major maintenence, even washing an A/C will help them understand each other.
I recently visited a Squadron were a pilot who I worked with on his first tour (transport in Yellowknife)is now on his second tour, he had just upgraded to A/C Capt. He brought in a box of donuts for the maint crew that had worked hard to give him an A/C for his upgrade, it wasn't much but seeing the the surprize from the techs was well worth it, and I could see he just jumped up about 3 notches of respect in their eyes.

WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:15 pm

Out here I find the Ex IAF [Indian Airforce Pilots] to be more Down to Earth compared to the Commercial ones.I meant "more",as 99% are quite Friendly & down to Earth.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
VC-10
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:58 pm

One thing I meant to add was I once went to AF Maint @ CDG for some A300 OJT where we were based in the Inspectors offices. One day we returned from the hangar back to the office, to find all the desks moved to the walls of the office and a huge buffet & drinks laid out on them. We asked what was happening and it was explained that once a year the Concorde FE's held a 'thank you' party for the maint guys.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:27 pm

The FBO I worked for in Ohio had a turnaround deal with TWA and we'd up to the airport and work squawks of a minor nature...the B727 had a hydraulic leak one time, I got the call. went up the airstair and talked to the crew....walking back down that aisle full of passengers all looking at me to see if they thought I knew something was a pretty cool feeling....
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting Saintsman (Reply 14):
I think a lot of it starts with the military. Pilots, particularly fighter pilots, are taught from day one that they are elite.

Unfortunately you need such people to think they are elite in some ways. But not in others.

Also youngsters in command positions are easily insecure, and try to mask it by acting bossy.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
midnights
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:39 am

Most of the mechanics I work with and I treat the flight crews like any other co-worker, their job is no more or less important than mine is. I work with a select few mechanics that think very little of any flight crew just because of the money they make and have delt with a few pilots who had attitudes toward anyone not wearing stripes, but for the most part we do all get along. that is of course until it's time for one group or another to negotiate their contracts and then there will be some bad feelings toward each other.
 
Fokker Lover
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:23 am

Like every one else has said, you treat people decently and they will probably treat you decently. Most of the flight crews I've dealt with were ok to me. I don't have any problems with them.
I have a very good friend that is also a mechanic. He's a great guy that will give you the shirt off of his back. Very knowledgable on several types of planes. An all around good guy. For some reason though, he has a very vindictive hard on for all pilots. He will go out of his way to screw with them. Mean stuff too. Skydrol on the sheepskin, or carbon paper from the log book rubbed on the shoulder straps. Ever see pilots walking through the terminal with black stripes going down the front of their white shirts? That's his fault. Sometimes he will eat beer, eggs, and onion rings the night before just so he can stink up the cockpit and close the door. I don't know what happened in his past to warrant that kind of an attitude, but it looks bad for all of us, and he will never change.
10,000 years ago we would have eaten you. Today, we drag you along and allow you to pollute the gene pool.
 
cdfmxtech
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:09 pm

Quoting Midnights (Reply 21):
Most of the mechanics I work with and I treat the flight crews like any other co-worker, their job is no more or less important than mine is. I work with a select few mechanics that think very little of any flight crew just because of the money they make and have delt with a few pilots who had attitudes toward anyone not wearing stripes, but for the most part we do all get along.

Couldn't have said it better!
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:19 pm

I think some pilots get a little frustrated when mechanics completely embarass them with systems or general aircraft knowledge. I've seen this attitude in several captains I've flown with.

Certainly not the case for me I hope. I recognize that mechanics have a far better understanding regarding the inner workings of most aircraft systems and I'm most gracious for any advice they give. Mechanics and pilots obvioulsy have two very different skill sets and I certainly have a lot of respect mechs. I think being a mechanic is sometimes a thankless job, and they often don't get enough credit. The guys at my particular company are a great group. We have over 250 aircraft and it's not uncommon for there to be less than half a dozen MEL's system-wide on any given day.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:37 pm

Quoting Fokker Lover (Reply 22):
He's a great guy that will give you the shirt off of his back. Very knowledgable on several types of planes. An all around good guy. For some reason though, he has a very vindictive hard on for all pilots.

Your examples of the guy sounds of very Immature behaviour.Something in the past def.

When I communicate with Pilots.Sometimes its non Aviation Topics & a Laugh is often shared between us.I try to learn things while Tell them some.That way both sides win.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Whiskeyflyer
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:00 pm

Older experienced pilots who like to fly are the best, down to earth and respect the mechanics. They also explain defects better (no defect like VHF U/S....leaving us wondering in the middle of the night is that the speaker, controller, what freq?, what stage of flight etc). They are a pleasure to work with and they have earned our respect and we treat their defects with care and attention.

Regreatfully the newer batch of pilots is issued an attitude problem with their comm licence (this is amazing considering CRM training is now compulsory)

I could go on forever and tell you about pilots who have complained about a bit of dirt on the windscreen, after they knowing mechanics spent the whole night making the aircraft fit to fly due to a defect, refusing to fly even though the defect was transferred properly according to MEL, writing up pages of defects in an effort to ground aircraft because they have a problem with management regarding pay/uniforms/meal allowances, going back to hotel when the defect only requires ten minutes to fix and mechanic is on route.

Mechanics don't have flight and duty time limits, have limited job security,work long hours in often horrible conditions with lets be serious tooling that has not advanced much since the 60s and then gets looked down on by somebody who's work hours are strickly regulated and works in confortable surrounding, supported by a strong union that will protect him/her in most circumstances. (oh and they get to wear a nice white shirt and some gold bars)

maybe they should stop the CRM training and be thought about common courtesy and repect. Most mechanics have extreme pride in their work and want a safe flight.

Remember a mechanics signature/stamp is a legal binding document that "follows" the aircraft for life. A pilot after landing just signs out and moves on. Pilots say they are responsible for X number of passengers. But remember a mechanic has X number of passengers times the number of flights PLUS the pilot. So who is God now??????
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:06 pm

Quoting Whiskeyflyer (Reply 26):
Mechanics don't have flight and duty time limits

Something I often wondered why "No Ground Duty Time Limitations" especially in Major Mx when workload goes 24-48hrs non stop towards the End of a check.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
abbs380
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:58 pm

Maybe babble, but just tonight I got called to the cockpit. The capt, who was doing his pre-flight setup says "I keep getting the yellow sys. res. lo pressure light, its out now, but if I get it on pushback I will have to call you back up here". I said if you get it again just turn your start selector to -crank- and you will get a little more air from the apu and the light will go out. He thought for a moment and said "yeah, that might work". Flt departed, no problems.
Real world flight crew get my respect everytime.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:09 pm

Quoting Abbs380 (Reply 28):

What Aircraft Type.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Venus6971
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:37 am

I have worked heavy's for much of my career, and crewing a KC-135 with only a 4 man crew was the most enjoyable since tanker toads considered you part of the crew when you were on the road and usally waited for you with cold beer waiting when you were closing up the jet. Now acft with crew of 20 or more wasn't my favorite espcially AWACS, with a full agumented crew onboard there have been occasions I wanted to piss in somebodys coffee cup becuase if it is a training crew the only rest you will get is taking a nap in the galley area. Crew dogs go back there a talk or debrief a student in loud and I can here everthing voice while the mx troops are trying to get a nap. I have pissed off mission commanders for leaving them out of conversation about mx concerns with the acft commander because they had no clue what we were talking about.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
aogdesk
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting ATLAMT (Reply 9):
We were on the flight home after an all night road trip. After takeoff the crew did the normal welcome aboard thing. But when he finished he said "Ladies and gentlemen I'm sure you noticed the two mechanics onboard the aircraft this morning. They worked through the night to have this airplane ready for us this morning. I think a round of applause is in order. Thanks guys."

Very classy show of appreciation. That sort of gesture takes mere seconds and costs $0.00, but it buys more respect than you could possibly pay for.

At 5X, maint/flight crew relationships are still pretty good, I'd hate to see them break down like they have within some of the other majors. While we have our share of self proclaimed skygods, the vast majority are excellent people to work alongside. We have flight crews that buy the rampers and ops personnel donuts on occasion, some bring in fresh baked cookies, and it remains a good working relationship. If both sides work at keeping it respectful and realize that ultimately we're on the same team, it'll stay good.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:46 pm

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 31):
If both sides work at keeping it respectful and realize that ultimately we're on the same team, it'll stay good.

That says it all....TEAMWORK.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Venus6971
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:48 pm

Actual debrief write up by young E-3 pilot.
" acft seems to fly funny"
corrective action by smart ass Crew Chief
" had long talk with acft, it will act seriously now and fly right"
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:39 am

At our Company.We have a Two Monthly meeting followed by a a Get together/Dinner Party with the Company Directors & Pilots & AMEs,so that helps in keeping in personal touch too.
This is apart from the Weekly Snag meetings & Daily meetings which are normally attended by the HODs.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
abbs380
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:47 pm

Mel (reply 29), A300/310. Crank or start will accel. the apu to 101% + shut off packs.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:26 pm

Quoting Abbs380 (Reply 35):
Mel (reply 29), A300/310. Crank or start will accel. the apu to 101% + shut off packs.

Interesting.
Thanks.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:25 am

I usually get along quite well with both pilots and cabin crew (currently I'm actually sharing a flat with a female F/A).
What I hate though are unspecific tech log write ups, like "VOR U/S", Mickey Mouse cabin log entries if we have a full night of work to get aircraft flying, and pilots who are looking for reasons not to fly, e.g. reading in the tech log about how a snag was fixed according to AMM and then declaring even before they have flown the plane that they would ground it the next landing.
Another pet peeve of mine are pilots who do semiinformed troubleshooting and then insist that we should change the component they identified as faulty, even if the fault was somewhere else in the system. The worst I had was a 727 captain, who reported intermittent 2low pressure" lights on a center tank boost pump during flight at altitude. He insisted that the suction pipe of the pump must be blocked and wouldn't accept the plane unless we did some tank diving out on the ramp (On the 727, you also have to remove part of the l/h A/C pack to get access to the center tank access manhole). We traced the fault to water in the boost pump pressure switch sense line (on the 727 they are attached to the front spr and the pipes form goosenecks under the switches, so water collecting there will freeze during flight and cause an errornous low pressure indication). After we flushed the pipes all was ok, but the cxaptain caused quite a fuzz because we didn't act on his troubleshooting and entered the tank.

At my former airline we also had a lot of ex military pilots. A lot of young F/Os didn't seem to understand that there is a difference between military and civilian aviation. In the military, the pilot is an officer and we are NCOs, so we would have to salute him and jump if he gives us an order. In civilian aviation, the licenced engineer is responsibilitywise on the same level as the captain, therefore he expects to be respected.

Pilots have their areas of knowledge, especially concerning operations, we know nothing about, and we have knowledge about the fine points how the aircraft works, they know nothing about.

But on the other hand, when I'm off here in HHN, I like to go to a certain pub, where both F/As, engineers and pilots of the airline I'm currently working for are hanging out.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
AvionicMech
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
(currently I'm actually sharing a flat with a female F/A).

I like your style.  Wink
 
B744F
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:20 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
After we flushed the pipes all was ok, but the cxaptain caused quite a fuzz because we didn't act on his troubleshooting and entered the tank.

Next time someone tries that, start telling them how you thought their landing could use a little work and you would be happy to give them pointers
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:09 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
I usually get along quite well with both pilots and cabin crew (currently I'm actually sharing a flat with a female F/A).



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
But on the other hand, when I'm off here in HHN, I like to go to a certain pub, where both F/As, engineers and pilots of the airline I'm currently working for are hanging out.

That would def help you to make more Friends.  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Whiskeyflyer
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:43 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
He insisted that the suction pipe of the pump must be blocked and wouldn't accept the plane unless we did some tank diving out on the ramp

One of our Captains did similar recently, told the engineer what to do, so the engineer gave him a shifting spanner and walked away. There has hell to play with the safety officer the next day but our engineer was right (not the most dimplomatic way of handling the situation, but it got the message through)

but the best is when the stewards tell engineers how to do their job ( I am awaiting blood in the galley on this one). Once a the little red flashing light on the emergency torch stopped blinking (i.e. battery flat etc), well one stewardess, went to the cockpit, and wrote it up in the MEL book as a grounding item as she was of the opinion that no flashing light, means power failure on aircraft (amazing considering all the cabin lighting on and the aircraft kept flying)
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:59 pm

Quoting Whiskeyflyer (Reply 41):
wrote it up in the MEL book as a grounding item

Whats an MEL book to note snags.Are you saying FSR book.
& can a F/A do that.
Out here its different.The F/A Informs the Pilot who notes it in the PDR section of the FSR book.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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LTU330
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:38 am

The logbook system varies from Airline to Airline. Some have one log which records all defects. Others have a seperate Cabin log, and sometimes even an IFE logbook for the more advanced systems ( Qantas with Rockwell TES and Singapore Airlines with MAS spring to mind ). Generally a Cabin log entry is just that, something in the cabin say a seat recline, but if something more important relating to safety ie PA sytem is written up in the Cabin log, it has to be transferred to the Tech log by the Captain, as this has MEL implications.

As for pilots, in my experience ( 8 years Military,15 years civil ) only the new kids on the block have no repsect for the Engineers, and they are usually put straight by a good Captain pretty quickly.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:17 pm

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 43):
The logbook system varies from Airline to Airline

What does FAA/JAA say about this Log Requirement.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
abbs380
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:47 pm

Im sorry but I have to say this. The subject of this thread is -Relations between pilots and mechanics-. If you want to get into relations between FA/s and mechanics you are opening up a whole new ball game. In my experience, most of the time pilots & mechanics respect each other, even if sometimes they trade jabs.
Most mechanics I know do not consider FA/s in the same league.
Where I used to work we had mostly freighters, but also a few pax a/c for MAC charters. We had a separate cabin log for the FA/s to document problems they found.
It was said that the cabin log, per SE, was not required by the FAA as long as there was a method to assure that safety of flight items were recorded in the a/c log.
The reason the cabin log system was adopted was the FA/s felt they weren't being taken seriously and their concerns were not being addressed.
 
scarebus03
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:44 pm

I've been fixing planes for 13 years and started in the military. And it took me a few years to adjust from military to civilian flight crews because after the air corps I HATED PILOTS!!! I used to work on the line in DUB and found most of the pilots great to work with, one or two bad apples but it was all just a question of how you approached the situation. When pilots want to ground an A/C for legally safe items entered in the MEL I just ask them to make an entry in the tech. log and say why they don't except it. In 90% of cases they won't make the entry. I have found that doing it in this way the crews start to realise how difficult it can be to ground an A/C from a maint. perspective and this in turn increases the respect between both parties. There is nothing underhanded about this post because in these days of increased competition and lower profit margins you have to get it right everytime both grounding and dispatch. I have a lot of good friends who are pilots and some of them left the hangar floor to start flying. For pilots remember that you have a duty time, we do not so at the end of a 16hr+ shift due to an aog we will usually not be the most talkative! I now work for a new Spanish airline and we all work pretty close and I now understand some of the downpoints of flying, however this never affects the skygods as how can you see anything good or bad with your head wedged squarely in your keester!?  Smile
No faults found......................
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:28 pm

Quoting Abbs380 (Reply 45):
Im sorry but I have to say this. The subject of this thread is -Relations between pilots and mechanics-. If you want to get into relations between FA/s and mechanics you are opening up a whole new ball game

You are correct.
Just to conclude,so its another book altogether.  Smile

To stay on Topic.We just had our usual Two monthly Get together with Pilots & AMEs & it was Fun.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
MX757
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:19 pm

The pilots here at CO are a pretty good bunch. I have yet to get into any serious disagreements with any yet. ( 6 1/2 years and counting) Like others have stated a couple of times on this thread, I treat them like fellow coworkers also. I have flown jumpsuit numerous times and the pilots have always been cool with me. They love rumors though, I always get asked questions like have I heard about this or about that. I always respond the same way, don't believe it until it comes true.

Now 12 years ago when I was working for Kallita I saw something that shocked me. I was working on a DC-8 freighter on the ramp in YIP when I heard a lot of "thumping noises" coming from a Zantop Electra parked next to my aircraft. When a couple of guys I work with and I went to check it out we noticed the whole aircraft bouncing back and forth. When I got to the top of the ladder and went thru the the entry door I saw a pilot and a mech having a knock down drag out fight in the cargo bay! It was pretty bad, they were punching, kicking, and throwing each other around. These guys had beaten each other bloody. Just when all of us got onboard and started separating both of them the airport cops pulled up and arrested both of them for assault and battery!

I found out later the reason the fight started in the first place.The pilot was pissed off about a chronic write up on this paticular aircraft and he thought nothing was being done about it. So when he brought the Electra in that night and the mech went into the cockpit the pilot told the mech exactly what he thought of him and the rest of Zantop's maintenance department. The mechanic told him if he would like to "step out" and discuss the issue further he would "oblige". So they waited for the F/O and Flt Eng to exit the aircraft and then they proceeded to throw each other a beating.

Know what the real funny part is? The cops dropped the charges and both the pilot and mechanic kept their jobs. I even heard a few months later that they were hanging out together and buying each other drinks at a local toppless bar. Go figure!

Has anybody else witnessed something like this?

Have a nice day!  Smile
Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Relations Between Pilots And Mechanics.

Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:32 pm

Quoting MX757 (Reply 48):
They love rumors though, I always get asked questions like have I heard about this or about that. I always respond the same way, don't believe it until it comes true.

Very Similiar out here.They keep asking me about whats happening in Aviation world,Tell me a few things.I share a few things too.We discuss non Aviation events too,some new Technological Discoveries at times.  Smile

Quoting MX757 (Reply 48):
I was working on a DC-8 freighter on the ramp in YIP when I heard a lot of "thumping noises" coming from a Zantop Electra parked next to my aircraft

Damn I thought it would be something different with an FA & Mechanic.
 biggrin 
On a serious note.Fighting in the workplace out here is considered Bad & diciplinary action can be very severe.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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