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FlyingDutchman
Topic Author
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:16 am

"Longlanding"

Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:17 am

Is this a common expression in aviation used by ATC ?
I ask this because I listening in yesterday on ATC at EHAM

One Pilot that just had landed asked the ATC on duty not to use the word
"Longlanding" bud "Longrollout" with the remark that a "Longlanding" Doesn't
exist.
Bud they still use "Longlanding" and some Pilots are asking for a "Longlanding"

So what's right in this matter?

Flyingdutchman
 
crash65
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:36 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:26 am

Mostly I hear "roll out to the end" or "roll to the end" or "clear at the end" but honestly don"t recall "longlanding" or "longrollout".
 
vxg
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 12:31 pm

RE: "Longlanding"

Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:33 am

I don't believe "long landing" is an official phrase that is to be used by Pilots or Controllers since I couldn't find it in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

But that said I have used it and heard tower controllers use it several times. If I'm landing a small single engine plane on a 9000 ft runway and I know that my parking location is on the far end of the field I sometimes request a long landing & touch down on the 2nd half of the runway to reduce taxi distance. Controller response is typically something like "long landing approved".

I believe that once you've been cleared to land and you don't have any land and hold short instruction from the controller you are free to take the entire runway to land. However letting the controller know that you intend to land long is a courtesy that allows him/her to plan sequencing for the next aircraft.

VxG
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:47 am

Well while piloting a Cessna into a controlled airport with a long runway (BFI), I have asked for a long landing many times. It is because the facilities at that I was going to were at the far end of the field. If I performed a normal approach, I would have about a mile and a half of taxiing and have to cross another active runway, so I ask for a long landing so that I can land half way down the runway. If there is no one landing behind, the controller will usually allow me to do it.

I don't know if it is official or not, but I have asked for it and it is usually granted. The controllers at Boeing Field in Seattle certainly know what it means. In reality controllers are just people, and you don't have to use "official" terminology. Use simple English if you need to, they will understand.

It is important to request permission to perform a long landing since you will be on the runway or at least over it for a longer period of time. This will cause a mess if there is traffic behind you. Normal procedure is to land and vacate the runway promptly. You are going to get in trouble with controllers if you perform an excessively long landing roll if you don't ask permission.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
FlyingDutchman
Topic Author
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:16 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:02 am

VxG and RoseFlyer

Thanks for the explanation

Regards
Flyingdutchman
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:56 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:10 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):

Exactly. I did some of my flight training in DAB with their 10,000+ foot runway, and my parking spot was pretty much at the end of it. I would always ask for a sidestep to 7R or to 'land long' on 7L so that I wouldn't have to spend as much time taxiing.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
Woodreau
Posts: 1975
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:17 pm

This is just my opinion, I have no idea whether these terms have any official meaning, but "long landing" and "long rollout" have two separate meanings to me, although I wouldn't use those terms, I would use "landing long" and "long rollout."

Landing long is what I would describe when I land a little further down the runway, like at the last set of touchdown zone markers (at the 3000ft point) the furthest point I can legally touchdown, instead of landing at the aimpoint markers (1000ft markers.) The roll out and turnoff the runway is normal, exiting the runway as soon as practicable.

Long rollout to me means landing at the normal location on the aimpoint markers and not exiting the runway as soon as possible and instead spending extra time "taxiing down the runway" to get to an exit further down the runway.

In both instances, I would notify the tower in advance as a request in order to give the tower a chance to disapprove it due to spacing and separation with landing traffic behind me.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
bri2k1
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:13 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 6):
the furthest point I can legally touchdown

At what point does it become a legal issue? I try to land on the first third of the runway most of the time. But, my C172 can land in about 900 feet at this altitude, less with a headwind, and there's a 10,000 foot runway at my airport. I could land on the last 20% of it and have twice as much room as I need, hence, without creating a hazard. If I worked for an air carrier operation, I would have to follow FAA-approved SOPs, but would I be breaking a law if I didn't?
Position and hold
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 6):
This is just my opinion, I have no idea whether these terms have any official meaning, but "long landing" and "long rollout" have two separate meanings to me, although I wouldn't use those terms, I would use "landing long" and "long rollout."

In reality, it doesn't matter. There is nothing wrong with speaking pure English to controllers. They will understand. While I don't suggest you try to fly a Cessna into a huge crowded airport with airline traffic and go rattling on inefficiently on the radio, you can say whatever you want as long as it makes sense. Certain terminology is useful and higher time pilots or those that fly everyday will be accustomed to using certain terms, but it is ok to say whatever you want to describe what you want to do. If you are confused about what to say, you could say something like "Tower, may I land halfway down the runway?" or "Tower, may I increase my landing roll to get to my parking space quicker?" The controller will probably understand what you want and will tell you if you can do it or not. The most important things for student pilots to learn on the radio is that they shouldn't be worried about saying things correctly, but rather just being clear and as concise as possible. It is when pilots worry about exactly what words to say that accidents happen because attention is being diverted away from the task at hand... landing the plane. Proper lingo is something that is learned with time.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:56 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 7):

Its not a legal issue for someone operating under part 91. part 121 and 135 is different though, you have to land within the touchdown zone for it to be considered a legal stable approach.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 7):
At what point does it become a legal issue?



Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 9):
Its not a legal issue for someone operating under part 91.

The first obvious truth is that it is not a legal issue unless something bad happens. Then I might argue this:

The heart of FAR 91.13 is the last couple of lines.
They define what careless or reckless operation are:
"...so as to endanger the life or property of another."


It might be legal to crash an airplane if:

It is paid for, free and clear.
You crash on your own property.
No insurance claim is filed.
No other person is involved in any way.
No fire/rescue personnel or equipment must be used.
There are no environmental hazards stemming from fluid spills or smoke.
- et cetera


So if you land long, and something goes wrong, if you are on a public airport or in a rented plane or they roll the fire trucks or anything else like that, there just might well be a legal issue.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:56 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 10):

Understood, but what I meant was it is not illegal for a part 91 pilot to land anywhere on the runway safely, but for a 121 or 135 pilot a safe landing halfway down the runway is illegal.

In the small planes I fly today if I don't land on the first third of the runway I go around, even if it seems like I have a lot of room left. (unless its daytona's runway or whatever, in which case I'll put down somewhere around the halfway point.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:15 am

At GFK, FedEx Feeder's Caravans generally ask for a long landing when they are landing on 17R. The FedEx complex is at the far end of the runway, and they land long in order to minimize on taxi time. I don't recall where exactly they tend to touch down on the runway.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: "Longlanding"

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:48 pm

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 7):
I would have to follow FAA-approved SOPs, but would I be breaking a law if I didn't?

AFAIK FAA regulations (and published SOP) ARE law in the USA.

As to long landings at EHAM, they happen quite a lot.
An aircraft landing long takes less time to reach the terminal, uses the taxiways for less time.
That saves money.
If they'd not land long they'd brake less hard, taking up the runway for longer to get their preferred turnoff, so traffic separation shouldn't be a problem.
I wish I were flying
 
bri2k1
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:13 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:24 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 13):
FAA regulations (and published SOP) ARE law in the USA.

My point is, the SOPs are not, in and of themselves, a law. Their authority is created in the FARs, but SOPs are not by themselves a FAR.

Interesting answers, thanks.
Position and hold
 
Woodreau
Posts: 1975
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:00 am

Well I guess I can't find anything in the FARs (just skimming through real quick) that says I have to land in the touchdown zone... So maybe my understanding of the requirement to land in the touchdown zone was wrong....

Didn't mean to cause such a discussion about legality, I was just typing my opinion as to what I think landing long and a long rollout was.

At the same time, about requesting to land long when I needed to get to the other end of the field, I've also asked for a short landing - because the ground controllers are expecting you to turn off the runway at a particular location, and they've already told the tower controller to route me a certain way...

I'll ask to see if I can get a taxi route the is closer to the landing end of the runway, by asking for an early turnoff the runway by requesting, "DFW Tower, flight ninety-eight forty-seven, four out one seven left, request north taxi," to get the "north taxi route" at DFW when landing on 17L. Most of the time it's approved, "Flight ninety-eight forty-seven, DFW Tower, cleared to land one seven left, north taxi approved." I'll touch down and usually I turn off on the reverse high speed Q4, but that particular day I was able to get off they runway by taxiway EL (2,000ft from the 17L threshold). After I did that, I guess the tower controller hadn't seen anyone turn off the runway that short before, so he asked our following company aircraft what our published landing distance was - which was about 3000-3200ft, and wondered if what I did was a fluke. The following aircraft landed, and turned off at EL as well, at which point the controller was all beside himself "You guys are awesome."

But landing short and turning off early, saved us from the conga line of airliners getting off 17L at Q6/Q7 and taxiing to the terminal using the south taxi route on taxiway ER.

The airport diagram if you're interested to see what I'm yakking about.
http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0601/06039AD.PDF
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
doug_or
Posts: 3244
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:08 am

SlamClick- my favorite answer for students- 91.13

If you ever have to ask if something is legal, than it probably violates 91.13.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:09 am

Woodreau... if you're rolling that little amount flying some type of commercial aircraft I have to ask... what are you flying? I'm assuming some kind of prop. It's ok though if you're trying to keep your confidentiality as to who you work for and don't want to answer, fully understand.
 
bri2k1
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:13 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:40 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 8):
There is nothing wrong with speaking pure English to controllers.

I disagree. From a safety standpoint, both the controllers and other pilots developing situational awareness are expecting you to use certain phraseology to describe certain requests or reports. When you deviate from that, it can break their concentration. And just as importantly, whether a student pilot, ATP, or controller, we're professionals, and we should strive to represent ourselves that way. I often throw in a "thanks" when a controller grants me a particular request, but other than that, I stick to standard radio usage. It really bothers me when other people don't.
Position and hold
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:57 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 18):
I often throw in a "thanks" when a controller grants me a particular request, but other than that, I stick to standard radio usage. It really bothers me when other people don't

I totally agree with that. When you know proper terminology and can efficiently say things, they yes you should do that. But when something comes up that a pilot does not know how to phrase something, then it is ok to use plain English. It is far better to say something clearly rather than worry about what to say in order to sound professional.

Now if a pilot is saying "I'm flying alongside the runway and am about to turn left" instead of "on downwind turning base" then yes there is a problem, but asking to land long or have a long rollout or have a long landing is fine and it doesn't matter what words you choose.

Chatting on the radio is unacceptable and dangerous and should never happen. On one hand, a friendly good day, happy new year or other form of salutation is fine, but saying useless words is unprofessional. On the other hand using simple terms to describe an event that is not common is fine and acceptable.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Grbld
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:25 pm

RE: "Longlanding"

Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 19):
When you know proper terminology and can efficiently say things, they yes you should do that. But when something comes up that a pilot does not know how to phrase something, then it is ok to use plain English.

Exactly. There's the theoretical world and then there's the real world. Soon enough you'll find a way to communicate most efficiently, and that's the whole purpose, to convey a message as clearly as possible while using a minimum of words. And sometimes a situation arises where you just need break outside the jargon.

Especially when things start going wrong, it's better to say what you want to say clearly than trying to fumble your way through a string of standard phraseology. Try saying "Request short-in downwind at 500 feet AGL and request visual observation of right main landing gear extension status" or something like that. I'd say "We want to make a low pass north of the tower so you can check if our right main gear is up or not."

Grbld
 
Tg 747-300
Posts: 1282
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 1999 6:08 am

RE: "Longlanding"

Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 15):
Well I guess I can't find anything in the FARs (just skimming through real quick) that says I have to land in the touchdown zone... So maybe my understanding of the requirement to land in the touchdown zone was wrong....

Don't know how this would apply, but I was something I came across in the FAR's

The lovely FAR 91.175

c1: "and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing"

tg 747-300
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