Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 30120
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

Cargolux Incident.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:32 pm


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Elizabeth


Anyone having details of what exactly transpired.
https://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2570127/
is being discussed in Civil Forum.
Was the Gear selecter lever moved to check for Hyd leak from upline without Lock pinning the gears.Anyone aware of details.

regds
MEL

[Edited 2006-01-26 09:44:09]
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:55 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
Was the Gear selecter lever moved to check for Hyd leak from upline without Lock pinning the gears.Anyone aware of details.

The gear was supposed to be pinned. Obviously, it wasn't, gear lever was cycled for troubleshooting. The rest is history.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:42 pm

why isnt weight on wheels logic built into gear retraction?
 
jush
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:10 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:12 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 2):
why isnt weight on wheels logic built into gear retraction?

I always thought it is anyway. But as you clearly see it's not but it might be on newer planes than the 744.

Whose fault was it? How much is it going to cost?

Regds
jush
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:24 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 2):
why isnt weight on wheels logic built into gear retraction?

There is but you can override it e.g. for MX purposes or to retract the gear in flight if the WOW sensors fail.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:50 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 2):
why isnt weight on wheels logic built into gear retraction?

There is the "lever latch over-ride" that you can use to raise the gear handle when the ground logic is active.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:10 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
There is but you can override it e.g. for MX purposes

why would you need to override it for mx?
surely the only time you want the gear to retract for maintenance is when the aircraft is jacked!
 
Mr.BA
Posts: 3310
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:18 pm

And just wondering what problems or errors in the system would require the recycling of the landing gears?
Boeing747 万岁!
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8167
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:27 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 6):
why would you need to override it for mx?
surely the only time you want the gear to retract for maintenance is when the aircraft is jacked!

There are a few reasons. Leak check the upside of an actuator. Check the indication logic. Check the switches in the gear handle. It's done often.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:33 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 8):
There are a few reasons. Leak check the upside of an actuator. Check the indication logic. Check the switches in the gear handle. It's done often.

right, so when you do this you stick the pin in and cycle the gear?surely if your doing this you double check that that pin IS in! i know i would be!
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8167
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 9):
right, so when you do this you stick the pin in and cycle the gear?surely if your doing this you double check that that pin IS in! i know i would be!

In fact, usually an item is put in the logbook stating the fact that the gear pins are installed.

The nose gear on the B747 is a difficult one to install. It's up in the lock mechanism and you need to climb up the gear to install it. If there is no flag attached to the pin, its quite easy to miss it. Its also easy to think that the pin is in, if you don't know exactly where to look on the gear. That's why of the 6 gearpins on the B747 (steering pin included) we make sure the nose pin has a flag. The others a fairly easy to see.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 10):
The nose gear on the B747 is a difficult one to install. It's up in the lock mechanism and you need to climb up the gear to install it. If there is no flag attached to the pin, its quite easy to miss it. Its also easy to think that the pin is in, if you don't know exactly where to look on the gear. That's why of the 6 gearpins on the B747 (steering pin included) we make sure the nose pin has a flag. The others a fairly easy to see.

ours are on a long pole, the actual pole extednds down to well below the gear door so its very visible if its still in!
 
don81603
Posts: 1105
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:07 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:07 am

Okay, this is going to sound like a stupid question, and feel free to laugh as hard as you like, but would it be possible for them to extend the nose gear (after making sure it's still operational) to lift the nose off the ground, then tow it away and make the repairs, or do they have to jack it up and tow it away for repairs?
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting Don81603 (Reply 12):
Okay, this is going to sound like a stupid question, and feel free to laugh as hard as you like, but would it be possible for them to extend the nose gear (after making sure it's still operational) to lift the nose off the ground, then tow it away and make the repairs, or do they have to jack it up and tow it away for repairs?

they have to jack it, they often slide a biginflatable under and inflate it to lift it off the ground!
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 30120
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Mr.BA (Reply 7):
And just wondering what problems or errors in the system would require the recycling of the landing gears

Cheking a suspected leak on the Upline side of the Gear Actuator after installing the Lock pins.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20609
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 13):
Quoting Don81603 (Reply 12):
Okay, this is going to sound like a stupid question, and feel free to laugh as hard as you like, but would it be possible for them to extend the nose gear (after making sure it's still operational) to lift the nose off the ground, then tow it away and make the repairs, or do they have to jack it up and tow it away for repairs?

they have to jack it, they often slide a biginflatable under and inflate it to lift it off the ground!

I don't think the gear extension mechanism is anywhere near strong enough to lift the plane (what would be the point). The gear is only fit to hold the plane when it's locked.

EDIT: The exception to this rule might be planes that can kneel, like the An-124, where the nose gear will compress to allow loading from the nose door. However I believe the gear is actually in the down and locked position when it compresses. So in this case, with the gear in the well, the feature still wouldn't help.

[Edited 2006-01-26 18:55:17]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:06 am

Looking at the photograph, I notice that at least one in-board engine is touching the ground. Wouldn't that suggest damage to the pylon and wing spare is possible?
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Nudlaug
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:40 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:36 am

Quote:
Would it be possible for them to extend the nose gear (after making sure it's still operational) to lift the nose off the ground, then tow it away and make the repairs, or do they have to jack it up and tow it away for repairs?

The 747 Nose gear extends via free fall, so since no hydraulic is pushing the gear down it would be impossible to lift the aircraft up by extending the nose gear. It would just sit on the floor doing nothing.
 
cancidas
Posts: 3985
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 7:34 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:55 am

this is like the second time it's happenned... i need to stop taking home those pins i find out on the ramp...
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:00 am



I'm sure most of you have heard this one, but I'm reminded of it anytime gear pins are mentioned:

While taxiing out in sequence behind a Lufthansa airliner at Frankfurt, a C-130 crew noticed an orange "Remove before flight" streamer hanging out of the Lufthansa nose wheel well (their nose gear locking pin was still installed). Not wanting to cause too much embarrassment by going thru the controller, the 130 crew simply called the Lufthansa aircraft on the tower frequency: "Lufthansa aircraft, Herky 23." No reply.
They repeated the transmission and again there was no reply. Instead, the Lufthansa pilot called the tower and asked the tower to tell the Herky crew that "the professional pilots of Lufthansa do not engage in unprofessional conversations over the radio."

The 130 pilot quickly replied, "Frankfurt tower, can you please relay to the professional pilots of the Lufthansa aircraft that their nose gear pin is still installed?"




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
Mr.BA
Posts: 3310
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:51 pm

I remember about a posting here about a CI B744 at TPE not having their pins removed amid warnings from pilots and they ended up taking off and having to dump fuel and return. Was a long haul flight and I think they did waste some fuel!

It'll be interesting to know how the LH pilots reacted!
Boeing747 万岁!
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 30120
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:41 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):

Is that a true story or an Aviation tale.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
pilotwhale
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:44 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:16 pm

Reading this exchange with interest. Since I am not a mechanic/engineer can someone explain the procedure involving a B747 - or point to a site that can. I tried google and it referred me to this thread. And, by the way, this has also happened to Eva Air in London, Singapore Airlines in Changi, Qantas and Korean Air in Sydney and China Airlines in Taipei - so someone must have written about it publicly!
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20609
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting Pilotwhale (Reply 22):
Since I am not a mechanic/engineer can someone explain the procedure involving a B747 - or point to a site that can.

The procedure of lifting the plane?

They have to jack it up somehow, then lower the gear. This could be done with inflatable bladders and/or jacks, or even a large crane. Once the plane is up, the gear is lowered and this time I bet they won't forget the pins.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:45 pm




Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
Is that a true story or an Aviation tale.

I've only ever read it online, so I'm not sure how true it is.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
pilotwhale
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:44 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:21 am

No, the procedure for preparing a B747 for towage and then preparing it for departure without use of a tow truck -i.e. how pins inserted and then removed. Any advice?
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8167
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:37 am

In order to tow a B747 you must:

-install a steering bypass pin or depressurize #1 hydraulics.
-pressurize #1 hydraulic system (body gear steering) or pay very close attention to your turn radius.
-pressurize #4 hydraulics for brakes.
-gear pins don't need to be installed (though some operators require them for maintenance tows).
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:10 pm

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 26):
gear pins don't need to be installed (though some operators require them for maintenance tows).

we always use the nose gear pin for towing!
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8167
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 27):
we always use the nose gear pin for towing

We only use the nose gear downlock pin on the DC8.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 30120
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:30 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 27):
we always use the nose gear pin for towing



Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
We only use the nose gear downlock pin on the DC8

Is it because a possibility of the Towbar pressure unlocking the Downlock.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
AvionicMech
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:28 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:22 pm

The only time an aircraft of ours is towed without gear pins is on push-back, every other time all three pins must be installed. It is just not worth the risk, and I am sure anyone who has been onboard during an extended tow will testify to say how bumpy it can be on those taxiways especially with very little fuel and no pax. Also there are some new tug drivers who are not the smoothest at pulling away and stopping which puts extra stress on the nose gear.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8167
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:36 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 29):
Is it because a possibility of the Towbar pressure unlocking the Downlock

One of the reasons is that the aircraft has no APU. With no APU, you can't have hydraulic power. The downlock on the aircraft is pretty flimsy, in my opinion, and with only accumulator pressure...bad things may happen.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 30120
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:37 pm


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeffwell
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeffwell


The rectification commences.
Any idea why the Pic on the Left has the FMC/MDL attached.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
airbusA346
Posts: 7284
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:05 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 32):
FMC/MDL

What's an FMC/MDL.

Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8167
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting AirbusA346 (Reply 33):
What's an FMC/MDL

A main deck loader. FMC is probably the best known manufacturer of this type of loader.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 30120
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting AirbusA346 (Reply 33):
What's an FMC/MDL.


Main Deck loaders Used to load Pallets in Cargo Decks.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
airbusA346
Posts: 7284
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:05 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:39 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 32):
Any idea why the Pic on the Left has the FMC/MDL attached

From pictures I have seen.

There were stairs at the main door when the incident happened and they had to use step ladders to get into the aircraft.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Elizabeth



There is probably a FMC at the aircraft in place, ready for loading of the pallets into the aircraft.

Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
satx
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:57 pm

What a mess. I would feel so bad if I was in charge when this happened. Any guess how much this would cost to resolve?

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 18):
this is like the second time it's happenned... i need to stop taking home those pins i find out on the ramp...

:D
A300 319 320 321 332 333 388 B727 732 733 735 737 738 739 742 743 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 77L 773 77W 788 789 C200 700 900 DHC2 DC9 E145 170 175 190 F100 MD81 82 83 87 88 90 | 38 Lines 44 Craft 58 Ports
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 30120
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Cargolux Incident.

Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:22 pm

Quoting AirbusA346 (Reply 36):
There is probably a FMC at the aircraft in place, ready for loading of the pallets into the aircraft.

Unless this pic was taken when the Loading ops was in progress.Amazing that the FMC was not struck.Which gives evidence to believe it was positioned later maybe to access the aft area.
What about the Pallets on board.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: yblaser and 24 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos