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HAWK21M
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757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:05 pm

What is the duration of Mx conversion training for Maintenance personnell from B752 to B762.Would 14 days be realistic.Flt ops it is a 3 day conversion training.
Anyone having any idea.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:50 pm

No for a Full type 11 licence it would be longer.
You need 5 days for the engine first, and the B767 has 5 different engines
RB211-524 PW4000 JT9D7R4 CF6-80A CF6-80C.
Then the flight deck course is short because the flight decks are 99% the same. For an engineer the black boxes are mostly the same, but located in different places, but the rest of the aircraft is completly different. The whole flying control and hydraulic systems are different.
We have the same course for electronics, but found it not worth the effort running differences courses for the airframe. It is easier to start again.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:55 pm

Our airline doesn't have a transition course. The B767 course is the same as the B757 course; 2 weeks (80hrs) systems, 2 weeks avionics, 1 week engine and 3 days engine/run and taxi.

Of course, not having the classes does not preclude the technician from working on the aircraft. He just can't work CATIII without downgrading the status nor can he run the engines.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:27 am

I am afraid that you cannot compare courses in the USA with those in Europe. I did a TWA B767 course in 1987. It was 80hrs complete. But you can only work under MCC approval. You need to get permission to raise ADDs (Placards). A European course is about 3 months long. The lengths of the course are set by EASA.
You both end up with similar qualifications, but they cannot be compared.
It is just the way the two authorities have evolved.
In USA you earn an AandP. You can then work on any aircraft.
In Europe you earn a B1. You cannot work at all, but must go on a 3 month course and 80hrs relevant practical, and have a bunch of work experience records, and then you can go to work, but as long as you work inside the AMM and MEL you can get on with it.
I am sure someone will correct me, because I havent worked on N reg aircraft for a while and its probably all changed since then.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 3):
I am sure someone will correct me, because I havent worked on N reg aircraft for a while and its probably all changed since then.

Nope, you're right, for the most part. Here in the States, and I believe if you're working N aircraft, an A&P suffices. The operator then has the option to send you to a certified class, in house or contract. It usually is in their best interest to do so. The FAA is getting pretty sticky about training and certifications. But understand, there is no federal B767 or B747 or A300, etc. certification. The A&P is it.

Of course, each operator may add requirements. When I was a Widget I wasn't allowed to release aircraft if I hadn't had at least the fam course. My current operator allows all work to be done without a class, but requires CAT or ETOPS downgrades if an affected system is disturbed by an unqualified technician.

Apples and Oranges between the FAA and other certifying agencies.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
Matt72033
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:15 am

what do you have to do to get an A&P?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:20 am

I was (and still am) a British CAA A and C engineer. I went to Fort Worth to the old ACME school to take my A and P. Started on Monday, and walked out with it the following Tuesday. 7 days , three exams and a practical test.
Being an experienced engineer I found the exams quite easy. I had to learn about weight and balance and fabric repairs, but practised on the rest and sailed through.
 
Matt72033
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 6):
Started on Monday, and walked out with it the following Tuesday. 7 days , three exams and a practical test

seriously? no wonder its worth jack shit over here! lol
im doing a Cat A license at the moment, ive taken all 12 exams just the essay to go......and then after all that i need a years experience! and thats because i did it with a JAR147 approve training organisation, otherwise it would have been 2 or 3 years experince, cant remember which!
And thats just for a Cat A
 
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fr8mech
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:41 am

Actually, in order for an unexpericed person to earn his A&P takes between 2 and 3 years of school/training. The FAA does allow experienced people (certificate holders from other jurisdications, military, etc) to test out of the classes. Take a look at FAR Part 65 subpart D.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:54 pm

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 8):
Actually, in order for an unexpericed person to earn his A&P takes between 2 and 3 years of school/training.

Out here its called the BAMEC [Basic Aircraft Maintenance Engineers Certificate].It covers min 4 papers depending on the stream Mechanical or Avionics.Thats after completion of a 3 yr Diploma in AME.There after its Type training,followed by Interview with the regulatory authorities,to get a licence Endorsement.But A&P & E,I,R,X,V catergories cannot be held by one person.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
n685fe
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:42 am

Matt72033, is CAT A an entry level job, no experience? What kind of pay is a CAT A?
psp. lead by example
 
Matt72033
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting N685FE (Reply 10):
Matt72033, is CAT A an entry level job, no experience? What kind of pay is a CAT A?

Cat A is the lowest License, you are entitled to sign for certain jobs.....these jobs are listed on your license!

the biggest tasks you can sign for are things like brake changes and wheel changes.

to get the approval on a particular job, you have to do that task four times!

i think ive heard the ball park figure of £30K a year for a Cat License with 2 or 3 Approvals!

you cant get a Cat A without at least one years experience! usually more! plus you have to sit 12 exams and write a technical essay!
 
n685fe
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:42 am

So right out of school/JAR147 approve training organisation, you can get a CAT A without any experience or any approvals on your license and get a job that pays 30k/UK to start? So after you complete your essay, do you still need a years experience to receive your CAT A or does going through the 147 class bypass the year requirement? And by the way, your license is "worth jack shit over here".
psp. lead by example
 
Matt72033
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting N685FE (Reply 13):

no.... you have to take 12 exams
Module 1 - Maths
Module 2 - Physics
Module 3 - Electrical Fundementals
Module 5 - Digital Techniques
Module 6 - Aircraft Maintenances Practices
Module 7 - Materials and Hardware
Module 8 - Basic Aerodynamics
Module 9 - Human Factors
Module 10 - Aviation Legislation
Module 11 - Aircraft Systems Structures and aerodynamics
Module 15 - Gas Turbine Engines
Module 17 - Propellors

then you write a technical essay, four questions, one on Air Leg, one on human factors and two on maintenance practices

you now need a years experience

you can then apply for your license

when you have a job, your company will train you and issue your approvals!

then your looking at a 30k job!
 
n685fe
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:24 am

How long does it take to go through the modules & essay? Where will you get your first year experience at, do major airlines have a program to start you out on or will your have to go to a contract mx operation or FBO?
psp. lead by example
 
LMP737
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:57 am

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 8):
Actually, in order for an unexpericed person to earn his A&P takes between 2 and 3 years of school/training. The FAA does allow experienced people (certificate holders from other jurisdications, military, etc) to test out of the classes. Take a look at FAR Part 65 subpart D.

I used my three years experience working on jet engines in the Navy to get my P. Followed by another two years at an A&P school to get the A.

[Edited 2006-03-28 03:17:33]
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:51 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 6):
I was (and still am) a British CAA A and C engineer. I went to Fort Worth to the old ACME school to take my A and P. Started on Monday, and walked out with it the following Tuesday. 7 days , three exams and a practical test.
Being an experienced engineer I found the exams quite easy. I had to learn about weight and balance and fabric repairs, but practised on the rest and sailed through.

I already had a EASA 66 B1 and the Irish Aviation Authority Basic Aeronautical Engineering Certificates (about the hardest exams I ever took, from which my basic B1 without typerating was grandfathered) Part 2 (Pressurised Airframe), Part 4 (Gasturbine Engines and Propellors) and Part 6 (Aircraft Electrics) when I went to Dallas, Texas to do my A&P exams (not at ACME, but at a small school called Aircraft Maintenance Training at Redbird Airport). It helped that I once worked on a restauration project on a C-47 and a C-54 for a museum and that I did some GA stuff during my apprenticeship. I spent the time flying over from FRA to DFW reviewing the books.
I spent one day on the reviewing computer (the examiner wanted me to deliver constant 90% or better), next day I took the General exam in the morning, reviewing again in the afternoon for the other two exams. The following day I took airframe in the morning and powerplant in the afternoon. This was followed by two days of sightseeing, because the school was closed for weekend. On monday I took the practical exam in the morning and the oral in the afternoon ( I wondered why it wouldn't finish. Later I discovered that the examiner asked me ALL the questions from the catalog, because she wanted to see what I knew. I think I only had one wrong, and even there you could have argued Big grin).
So all in all it took me about 4 days. After the Irish exams (first a several hours long written essay type exam for each part, followed 6 months later by a one hour grilling by two examiners, who really went for your limits), which were based on the old British CAA exams, I found the A&P exams quite easy.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Buzz
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:16 pm

Hi Hawk21M, Buzz here. I had the 767-200 course first about 20 years ago, that was about a week of systems familiarization. A few years later when we started getting 757's we had a week of 757 systems intro.
So to answer your original question... a couple weeks would be about right. Lots of things are in different places on the 2 aircraft... my "favorite" on a 757 is to find the right relay in the P36 panel, how many layers of shelf do you go into?
The engine and autopilot systems are different on the 2 airplanes... although the PW2000 and PW4000 systems are similar... OK, on the 4000 the accessories are on the core instead of under the fan.
Sure, the cockpits are 99% similar, but when you have to solve a problem you go to different parts of the airplane.

TriStar Steve, and Matt72033, I use my A+P and IA ratings as a hobby, fixing / flying / approving and inspecting classic airplanes for fun. So some of that fabric, and wood stuff is handy.
g'nite
 
MX757
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:50 pm

CO MX training:

757-2/-3, 3 weeks.
767-2/-4, 3 weeks.
Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
 
A/c train
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:57 pm

Matt7203, why are your company/training organisation making you do an A licence, if your going to go through all that effort, you may aswell just do a B1 licence.An A licence is great if you work on the line and you inherited the A licence through pre/flight daily approvals, if not, my advice is just to do the B1.
N685FE, I disagree with the CAA system were experience requirements lay, it makes it harder for someone who did a time served apprenticeship to gain a licence than it does for someone who went through university, how is that fair ? Someone with a better practical background must have more experience?
To gain a B1 licence which im doing, you must pass 13 exams then Sit 4 essay papers, all the exams are at a higher level than A licence, so they are quite hard. I have 2 exams and the essays left to do.
Tristarsteve, how did you go about doing your A+P? how did you apply and what experience requirements are needed?
regds a/c
 
VC-10
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:20 pm

With all due respect to you US mechanics, your courses can't be described as 'in-depth'. I say this from the personal experience of working with A & P's. You could never get a EASA Type License off a US course.

I don't blame the individual mechs's, it is your system. Unfortunatly the European system is going the same way.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:29 am

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 20):
Unfortunatly the European system is going the same way

Is it different from the CAA system or Does JAA cover CAA too.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Matt72033
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
Is it different from the CAA system or Does JAA cover CAA too

CAA comes under EASA
 
AvionicMech
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting A/c train (Reply 19):
Tristarsteve, how did you go about doing your A+P? how did you apply and what experience requirements are needed?

I am looking at doing my A+P licence aswell, it would be good to get a bit more info from someone who has actually been there and done it rather than just reading through the FAR's.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting AvionicMech (Reply 23):
Quoting A/c train (Reply 19):
Tristarsteve, how did you go about doing your A+P? how did you apply and what experience requirements are needed?

I am looking at doing my A+P licence aswell, it would be good to get a bit more info from someone who has actually been there and done it rather than just reading through the FAR's.

The biggest problem for non-Americans or non-permanent residents in the US (Green Card holders) is to get a letter from an operator of American registered aircraft that you as a foreigner will be required to do maintenance for then (and essentially to state that no US citizen is available to do the job).
I was lucky that at this time I was working for a big American cargo airline, so I got this letter without too much trouble.

Then I contacted the FAA field office in FRA (former Rhein-Main Airbase) for an appointment.
The FAA demanded that I should bring the processing fee not in cash or credit card, but in checks draftable to American banks (I used AMEX travellers checks).
So I went to FRA with all my professional certs, the letter from the airline and the cheques (I also required a letter from my boss certifying my CV to show my work experience).
The interview consisted mainly in the FAA inspector checking the paperwork and talking to me to asses in how far I could speak, read and write the English language (If your English isn't good enough you'll get the A&P licence limited to outside of the US only).
After one hour I had the exam permit papers, and was able to contact the school in Dallas, Texas, for an appointment for the actual exams.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
AvionicMech
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:49 am

OK thanks Jan,

I might have a bit of trouble getting the letter saying I need to work on US registered aircraft. Here at BY we do the ETOPS turn-arounds for CO at BHX but I believe the guys who do these use their UK licences for it.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:11 am

I did my A and P in 1991. I was working on TWA B767 with a British licence in ARN and got a letter from their Area Manager.
I then looked in Flight and found an A and P school and applied.
It cost about 800USD, and the school handled everything. They took me to the FAA at Alliance and sorted out the paperwork. I then worked through the questions in the school and walked over the road to do the computor tests. On the last day they took me down to a GA hangar and I took the practical. I found it all went smoothly. I had talked to someone who did it in FRA and it was a lot more difficult there. So I suggest you take a holiday in the States and contact a school. It takes time because you need a school visa, and have to go to the US Embassy to get it.
I took it in case I lost my job and needed to work for a US airline in Europe, but I am still in the same job!
 
LMP737
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:03 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 26):
I did my A and P in 1991. I was working on TWA B767 with a British licence in ARN and got a letter from their Area Manager.
I then looked in Flight and found an A and P school and applied.
It cost about 800USD, and the school handled everything. They took me to the FAA at Alliance and sorted out the paperwork. I then worked through the questions in the school and walked over the road to do the computor tests. On the last day they took me down to a GA hangar and I took the practical. I found it all went smoothly. I had talked to someone who did it in FRA and it was a lot more difficult there. So I suggest you take a holiday in the States and contact a school. It takes time because you need a school visa, and have to go to the US Embassy to get it.
I took it in case I lost my job and needed to work for a US airline in Europe, but I am still in the same job!

It will depend on who you get. When I got my P licenses it went preety smoothly. That might have been because I had spent the previous three years working on jet engines. However when I went to get my A after A&P school it was a bit tougher. Actually it was a three days of being put through the ringer. Funny thing is that the guy giving the oral and practical was one one of my teachers! However he took off his "I'm here to help" hat and put on his "If you think I'm going to take it easy on you becasue you are a former student think again" hat.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: 757 To 767 Mx Conversion Training

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:40 pm

Quoting AvionicMech (Reply 25):
OK thanks Jan,

I might have a bit of trouble getting the letter saying I need to work on US registered aircraft. Here at BY we do the ETOPS turn-arounds for CO at BHX but I believe the guys who do these use their UK licences for it.

Forget it if your company has a FAA Repair Station number. Then you can work on N-registered aircraft using your UK licence and a company approval. In this case you are not entiteled to an A&P licence.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

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