Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Kerberos
Topic Author
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:47 pm

"Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 6:34 am

Interesting concept...

http://www.newscientisttech.com/arti...reless-plane-takes-to-the-air.html

(I didnt see this already posted)
This is your captain speaking. I’ve turned off the no-smokin’ sign. Hell, if the plane is smokin' why can't you?
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 6:36 am

I'd rather drive down the freeway with my eyes closed and a brick on the accelerator.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
MX757
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 7:38 am

Quoting Kerberos (Thread starter):
Interesting concept...

Very interesting indeed. scratchchin 

Mr. Mellor makes a very good point about electromagnetic interference or the ability to jam the radio signals between the cockpit and flight controls. The reason I noticed this point is because the military is usually is at the forefront at utilizing new technology. If the interference problem is not fixed the military will have no use for wireless controls and henceforth no way to see if the system has any long term reliability.

Keep in mind that it was the USAF that used fly-by-wire technology (F-16) years before it was incorporated extensively in a civilian airliner. (A320)

This is a very logical step for aircraft technology and I hope it pans out. The
only wireless system being considered for airline use ,at this time, is the entertainment system. (787)
Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting MX757 (Reply 2):
This is a very logical step for aircraft technology and I hope it pans out.

I hope not, the interference possibilites will always be very high, and the consequences catastrophic. Fiber optic would be cool though.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 7:50 am




Quoting Ralgha (Reply 1):
I'd rather drive down the freeway with my eyes closed and a brick on the accelerator.



Quoting Ralgha (Reply 3):

I hope not, the interference possibilites will always be very high, and the consequences catastrophic.

We agree 1000%


Signed,

FBW Skeptics in the 1970s


 Wink


Intentionally Left Blank
 
Kerberos
Topic Author
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 9:12 am

If the onboard Bluetooth system is as reliable as my Bluetooth keyboard / mouse combo, I wouldn't go near the thing.

Capt: "Ailerons are no longer responding"
Co-Pilot: "It says here in the manual to press the "Connect" button on the glareshield, then press the "Connect" button on the aileron actuator. After the discovery process, enter the 4 digit code to pair the devices."

(If you've used Bluetooth devices, you'll be familiar with this)
This is your captain speaking. I’ve turned off the no-smokin’ sign. Hell, if the plane is smokin' why can't you?
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20034
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 1):
I'd rather drive down the freeway with my eyes closed and a brick on the accelerator.

While I am as skeptical with you about the current state of the technology, I assume the same kind of attitude existed when FBW was first conceived and tested (Apollo CM/LM or Canadian Arrow depending on your sources). "A plane without mechanical linkages to control systems? Madness!"

Quoting Kerberos (Reply 5):
If the onboard Bluetooth system is as reliable as my Bluetooth keyboard / mouse combo, I wouldn't go near the thing.

Capt: "Ailerons are no longer responding"
Co-Pilot: "It says here in the manual to press the "Connect" button on the glareshield, then press the "Connect" button on the aileron actuator. After the discovery process, enter the 4 digit code to pair the devices."

(If you've used Bluetooth devices, you'll be familiar with this)

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 9:52 am

You can shield wires. You can't shield radio waves. 'nuff said.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
ILOVEA340
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 9:49 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 3:37 pm

Along the lines of the freeway analogy...

I;d rather throw my parachute out of an airplane at 1000 meters and then jump out after it!
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 8:23 pm

Thanks, but no thanks. Imagine a car without a steering column, but just a radio link between steering wheel and front wheels.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
futureuapilot
Posts: 1329
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 7:50 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 9:03 pm

I would personally not want to fly on a wireless aircraft, unless there was a traditional fly-by-wire system installed as a back up. Dunno why, but that interfierence thing comes to mind, even though the signal would probably be encrypted.

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 3):
Fiber optic would be cool though.

 checkmark 

-Sam
The Pilot is the highest form of life on Earth!
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20034
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Viv (Reply 9):
Thanks, but no thanks. Imagine a car without a steering column, but just a radio link between steering wheel and front wheels.

Funny you say that. Current BMW's have no steering column. Still, they only go half way. There's wired electronic linkage, not wireless.

I have seen wireless automatic gearshift controllers to allow easy placement of paddles on the steering wheel of custom cars.


As I said earlier, there is always skepticism towards new technology. There are always people who say things are impossible. When subway trains were introduced in London, there were scientists on record saying that people would be driven mad by the experience.

I don't think this will happen soon, but someday maybe.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
don't think this will happen soon, but someday maybe.

I agree. I'm just not ready for it yet. And I sold my BMW.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20034
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 17, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting Viv (Reply 12):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
don't think this will happen soon, but someday maybe.

I agree. I'm just not ready for it yet. And I sold my BMW.

 Smile I'm not ready either... Did you sell the BMW because of the fly-by-wire steering?  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
jetflyer
Posts: 603
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:38 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Thu May 18, 2006 12:50 am

Sound like it will be a perfectly safe and trustworthy technology soon enough and lower design costs of aircraft. I would fly on it..

[Edited 2006-05-17 17:51:31]
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Thu May 18, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
I have seen wireless automatic gearshift controllers to allow easy placement of paddles on the steering wheel of custom cars.

Not going to die if it fails to shift once or twice, or even fails completely.

It doesn't matter if the signal is encrypted or not, the potential for interference is the same. It would bring a new meaning to the rule preventing cell phones from operating. "Turn it off or we all die." You could easily design a system to reject garbled signals, but that really doesn't solve the problem. In an airplane, not moving a control surface when ordered to is just as bad as moving it incorrectly, unlike with a BMW shift control, where it really doesn't matter if it works or not.

You would either have to have a transmitter of such high power that any inteference is utterly overpowered and has no effect on the signal, which would introduce an entirely new set of major problems, or you would have to be able to flawlessly recontruct the disrupted signal from any amount of garbage received, every...single...time...no...exceptions, which is not possible.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20034
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Thu May 18, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 15):
You would either have to have a transmitter of such high power that any inteference is utterly overpowered and has no effect on the signal, which would introduce an entirely new set of major problems, or you would have to be able to flawlessly recontruct the disrupted signal from any amount of garbage received, every...single...time...no...exceptions, which is not possible.

I understand and agree with everything you say, except "not possible" at the end.

"Not possible today" is one thing. "Not possible" in absolute terms is another. After all, if you had told someone 100 years ago about Concorde or the 380, you would have been told "not possible". In the 60s, a car engine designer told my dad a five cylinder engine was a "technical impossibility".
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Thu May 18, 2006 3:51 am




Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
"Not possible today" is one thing. "Not possible" in absolute terms is another. After all, if you had told someone 100 years ago about Concorde or the 380, you would have been told "not possible".

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 



Exactly. Imagine trying to explain radio waves to someone in the 1700s. Not only would they not believe you...you would quite possibly have been burned at the stake. Imagine explaining modern WIFI technology to someone in the 1950s or 1960s. They'd laugh in your face. After all, only fictional characters like Maxwell Smart and James Bond use that kind of make-believe technology.  Wink




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
FredT
Posts: 2166
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 9:51 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Thu May 18, 2006 5:03 am

"Logical next step?" Hardly. It is a step which doesn't make sense. What's the benefit? It is adds cost, complexity, risk and most likely weight. For a step to be logical, it must be a step forward. This isn't.

Verdict: Neat for technical geeks, of which I am one, but completely useless and nonsensical.

Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20034
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Thu May 18, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting FredT (Reply 18):
"Logical next step?" Hardly. It is a step which doesn't make sense. What's the benefit? It is adds cost, complexity, risk and most likely weight. For a step to be logical, it must be a step forward. This isn't.

Verdict: Neat for technical geeks, of which I am one, but completely useless and nonsensical.

If you have enough cables, it might save weight. But you do make a good point.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
bhmbaglock
Posts: 2489
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:51 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Thu May 18, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 3):
Fiber optic would be cool though.

Boeing did this back in the 80s with a Blackhawk known as the LightHawk. You're right though, it was cool. For a short period of time when standard UH-60 models were having some trouble with RF interference and were grounded it was the only Blackhawk flying.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
wingscrubber
Posts: 823
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 1:38 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Thu May 18, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
When subway trains were introduced in London, there were scientists on record saying that people would be driven mad by the experience.

It's true, we are!  crazy 

I couldn't help but imagine the scenario of somebody switching on their mobile phone on a fly-by-wireless airliner! Doesn't bear thinking about...
Resident TechOps Troll
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20034
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Fri May 19, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 20):
Quoting Ralgha (Reply 3):
Fiber optic would be cool though.

Boeing did this back in the 80s with a Blackhawk known as the LightHawk. You're right though, it was cool. For a short period of time when standard UH-60 models were having some trouble with RF interference and were grounded it was the only Blackhawk flying.

Fiberoptics have the advantage of being interference free of course.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
User avatar
TripleDelta
Screener
Posts: 1270
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Fri May 19, 2006 4:06 am

What would be the effects of the... hmm... quite abundant metal structure of the plane itself on the signal? Could some structural solutions in the wings and fuselage block signals, and even act as some sort of Faraday cage? The test plane was a 3 meter UAV - but a commercial airliner is a far more complex machine with it's own set of tolerances and standards.
Hawkeye: "It doesn't make any sense."
Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Sun May 21, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting Kerberos (Thread starter):
Interesting concept...

Forgive me, but aren't radio controlled model airplanes wirelessly controlled? That the servos that control surfaces refer back to the transmitter and have no connection within the airplane apart from power? So the concept flown in the article instead puts the transmitter onboard...and somehow this is new??

Someone inform me.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Bobster2
Posts: 1523
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:04 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Sun May 21, 2006 7:49 am

If you go back and look at the New Scientist article again, you will see that it has been corrected. The fly-by-wireless plane has not flown yet. They tested a partial wireless prototype.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Mon May 22, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
"Not possible today" is one thing. "Not possible" in absolute terms is another. After all, if you had told someone 100 years ago about Concorde or the 380, you would have been told "not possible". In the 60s, a car engine designer told my dad a five cylinder engine was a "technical impossibility".

It is not possible in absolute terms to reconstruct a signal in every case. Sure you can in many cases, but not all cases. Tell me, how will you reconstruct a signal that no longer exists?
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Mon May 22, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 24):
So the concept flown in the article instead puts the transmitter onboard...and somehow this is new??

Technically, they're fly by wire.

There's a single receiver on board. Each and every servo has a wire connecting it to the receiver which is connected to a battery which powers the whole system.

For it to be truly wireless, each servo would have to have its own internal receiver.


I'm susrprised nobody has really taken fiber optics seriously. Seems to me as the lightest, most efficient way of carrying loads of info. You could probably fit flight control commands, IFE, sensor monitoring etc in a single strand of fiber optic wire.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20034
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Mon May 22, 2006 8:30 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 26):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
"Not possible today" is one thing. "Not possible" in absolute terms is another. After all, if you had told someone 100 years ago about Concorde or the 380, you would have been told "not possible". In the 60s, a car engine designer told my dad a five cylinder engine was a "technical impossibility".

It is not possible in absolute terms to reconstruct a signal in every case. Sure you can in many cases, but not all cases. Tell me, how will you reconstruct a signal that no longer exists?

Lost signals happen all the time in computers systems. That's why you have error correction.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Mon May 22, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 28):
Lost signals happen all the time in computers systems. That's why you have error correction.


Error correction in computers is typically used to identify incorrect data and drop it, or do (very) limited repair of corrupted data. Usually the action of a computer when presented with a total loss of control data is to not to anything at all, or sometimes revert to a default operation mode.

So you've got two choices with a control surface that loses a signal.

A) Guess at how to move it.

B) Don't move it at all.

So, which will you pick? Either one could be catastrophic.

[Edited 2006-05-22 03:10:49]
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
corey07850
Posts: 2335
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:33 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Mon May 22, 2006 11:31 am

"At the present rate of progress, it is almost impossible to imagine any technical feat that cannot be achieved - if it can be achieved at all - within the next few hundred years."

Arthur C Clarke
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20034
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Mon May 22, 2006 8:33 pm

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 29):
Error correction in computers is typically used to identify incorrect data and drop it, or do (very) limited repair of corrupted data. Usually the action of a computer when presented with a total loss of control data is to not to anything at all, or sometimes revert to a default operation mode.

So you've got two choices with a control surface that loses a signal.

A) Guess at how to move it.

B) Don't move it at all.

So, which will you pick? Either one could be catastrophic.

ECC (Error Correcting Code) is a bit more advanced than that. Also, you could conceivably transmit the data multiple times, thus minimizing the loss possibilities. Your scenario is pretty much worst case.

As I said before, I don't think we're there today, but it's by no means "impossible".

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 30):
"At the present rate of progress, it is almost impossible to imagine any technical feat that cannot be achieved - if it can be achieved at all - within the next few hundred years."

Arthur C Clarke

Ah. One of my favorites. He also said.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Tue May 23, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 31):
ECC (Error Correcting Code) is a bit more advanced than that. Also, you could conceivably transmit the data multiple times, thus minimizing the loss possibilities. Your scenario is pretty much worst case.

As I said before, I don't think we're there today, but it's by no means "impossible".

A *bit* more advanced that what I described, yes, but it is still quite limited in the repair department, and as I said, it's not going to help you when you lose the signal. My scenario is worst case, should we ignore worst case? Just say, "oh, this airplane is just fine, unless you encounter the worst case scenario, which is actually not that rare, then you're fooked. I hope your life insurance is paid up."
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Tue May 23, 2006 1:56 am




Quoting Ralgha (Reply 32):

Ralgha, throughout this thread, you seem to have been making the argument that technological advances that hasn't been invented yet are insufficient to address the shortcomings of todays technology.

Is that the main point you've been trying to make, or am I misreading your posts?




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20034
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Tue May 23, 2006 4:16 am

Thank you 2H4. That was my point.

Ralgha, I never said it should be implemented today. I simply said that the future is unknowable. Can you tell me that it will never be possible? You can't do that because you can't predict the future. Nitpicking details in a thread such as this leads nowhere since we are, as 2H4 points out, discussing future advances that may solve problems of today.

If you had told someone from the 18th century about the Airbus 380, they would have come up with a dozen arguments why it is impossible to build such a thing. And yet here we are...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ATCme
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:20 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Tue May 23, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 24):
Forgive me, but aren't radio controlled model airplanes wirelessly controlled?



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 27):
There's a single receiver on board. Each and every servo has a wire connecting it to the receiver which is connected to a battery which powers the whole system.

FLY2HMO is correct. I fly R/C airplanes and the only thing recieving a signal is one reciever (2 on REALLY big planes as a backup). All the servos have a wire directly to the reciever and recieve their signal through the wire. Essentially it is similar to the FBW planes we have today except the signals aren't from the cockpit but a reciever.

Back on topic, I wouldn't fly on a FBWLess plane anytime in the near future. Ever seen Speed 2 (the movie with Sandra Bullock on a bus, but the sequel). Some maniac takes over a cruse ship with technology similar to wireless. I am more worried of the person who decides to control the plane while bypassing the pilots.
Just my input.
ATCme  spin 
I'm from the FAA, and I'm here to help. Really. Yes I'm serious, I'm here to help you.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Tue May 23, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting ATCme (Reply 35):
I fly R/C airplanes

Oh yeah, well my plane is bigger than yours hehe, and I'm just guessing Big grin

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 34):
Can you tell me that it will never be possible? You can't do that because you can't predict the future. Nitpicking details in a thread such as this leads nowhere since we are, as 2H4 points out, discussing future advances that may solve problems of today.

Well said, who knows what stuff the engineers are thinking for tomorrow. I know the AE students here at ERAU are mostly concentrating 787 technologies and such, along with the more "traditional" technologies.
 
siromega
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:57 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Tue May 23, 2006 1:54 pm

UWB: Ultrawideband RF technologies.

What I could see happening is that you replace the primary link with UWB + ECC/FEC, and your backup systems are wired. You'd reduce the amount of wires (and their weight) by 1/3 (since I believe there are three control systems in modern planes), and still have wired backups.
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Tue May 23, 2006 4:01 pm

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 27):
I'm susrprised nobody has really taken fiber optics seriously. Seems to me as the lightest, most efficient way of carrying loads of info. You could probably fit flight control commands, IFE, sensor monitoring etc in a single strand of fiber optic wire.

The following is what I remember from a course in computer networking a couple years ago. I am a programming guy, and I have no experience actually working in the aerospace word - so you can take it with a grain of salt.

There is one characteristic of fiber optic cable that would seem to me to make it hard to use in aircraft. It doesn't take much to make a fiber optic cable useless for carrying data(you can still use it for a flexible penlight Smile). If you bend it or otherwise abuse it to much, it will break. Do you want your data stopping after a CFIT avoidance maneuver or a hard landing?

Fiber optics are used for long lines where a lot of data is passed. They can be relatively fragile since they are underground or otherwise well protected.

Fly by wire aircraft require short, more durable lines - and they don't need to carry nearly as much data per line.

The transmitters and receivers required at each end of a fiber optic line add weight and complexity. Copper wire are much simpler, even for a full NIC(Network Interface Card). If all you want out of a copper wire is move a rudder, you might not need much more than a micro-controller and a few connections.

As for interference - this is one area I see an advantage for fiber optics. They are immune from interference. But copper is used in interference sensitive applications all the time. One simply uses shielded cable and is careful in routing it.

The weight of a cable could be some advantage. The core of a fiber optic cable that is actually lit up is microns across. But this weight advantage doesn't mean as much when there is not much data to be carried. If you just want to move a rudder, a copper cable can be very narrow also.You can't always consolidate to a single cable. Aircraft have to send a LITTLE bit of data to a LOT of places. Fiber optic tech is used to send a LOT of data to a FEW places.

The expense involved in avionics and fly by wire systems is because of the highly specialized needs and the high reliability required. The actual raw computing muscle is relatively modest. With the possible exception of IFE systems, Data throughput is actually pretty low compared to land based networks . Copper cable can handle that kind of traffic just fine. The advantages of fiber come into play only when you are dealing with much longer distances and larger amounts of data.

IN SHORT....It seems to me that fiber optic cables have the opposite characteristics one would need for aircraft cabling - most aircraft cabling, anyway. I can see it being used in IFE or for a few trunk lines to connect key areas - if it is used at all. At least that is my guess. I would welcome knowledgeable correction.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Wed May 24, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 38):
The following is what I remember from a course in computer networking a couple years ago.

Nicely done. That cleared lots of stuff up. Thanks  Smile
 
cancidas
Posts: 3985
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 7:34 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Thu May 25, 2006 3:20 am

i can see it now:


300 dead in plane crash, pax didn't turn off bluetooth headset.



lol... i'm so funny! (not really, just bored)
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
BandA
Posts: 319
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:34 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Thu May 25, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting Kerberos (Reply 5):
If the onboard Bluetooth system is as reliable as my Bluetooth keyboard / mouse combo, I wouldn't go near the thing.

Capt: "Ailerons are no longer responding"
Co-Pilot: "It says here in the manual to press the "Connect" button on the glareshield, then press the "Connect" button on the aileron actuator. After the discovery process, enter the 4 digit code to pair the devices."

(If you've used Bluetooth devices, you'll be familiar with this)

LMAO!  laughing 
"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 10:48 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:43 am

I think it's just not worth the risk. Especially for a commercial aircraft carrying passengers.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:51 am




Quoting Blackbird (Reply 42):
I think it's just not worth the risk. Especially for a commercial aircraft carrying passengers.

That's exactly how we feel about FBW.

Signed,

Everyone in 1965.

 Wink
Intentionally Left Blank
 
BoeingOnFinal
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:47 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:06 am

Is Airbus the only one using the fly-by-wire system, or are there others who use the same system?
And are there mechanical and hydraulic backups to this system?

I would rather fly any electrical beast, as long as a couple of humans are controlling it, as oppose to the so called "pilot out of the cockpit" aircrafts we will "supposedly see in the future".
norwegianpilot.blogspot.com
 
mohavewolfpup
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:52 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:32 am

what was the deal with the A340 crash in toronto? wasn't that being flown by wire? or did the pilots have control during landing?

here we are talking about 100% fly by wire (and I assume getting rid of pilots, if airlines could ditch pilots 100% to save cash, they would be happy and unions would be unhappy) and we have airbus having wiring issues with the A380.

if you can't send a signal down a half mile or so or however damn big the whalejet is saying "bathroom in use due to lasagna giving business class the tijuana trots" then why should we trust fly by wire?

the day a airplane goes 100% wireless and has no pilots upfront, I am *never* flying again. don't care how much I like the airline, i'll never fly again.
 
mayhem
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:14 am

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:16 am

lol, too bad airbus didn't want to use that technology for their a380... they could have saved theirselves a lot of delays without wires Big grin

I think it will be possible some day... but many people will have to be convinced first that it's without risk, although the step from fly-by-wire to wireless seems less dangerous than from mechanical to fly-by-wire... we've lost the physical link already...
 
cptspeaking
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:49 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:35 pm

This could make formation flying relatively easy though...just put the two control systems on the same frequency and voila!! Perform an aileron roll in one and you get the exact same input on the other! biggrin 

I'm not sure I'd want to fly in one of these though...granted as many have said there is always skepticism of new technology, but most new technology has proven technology as a backup (in airplanes at least...the F-15 has FBW but also has mechanical backup if I remember correctly)...putting wired or mechanical linkage in one of these as a backup would completely defeat the purpose, would it not?

Your CptSpeaking
...and don't call me Shirley!!
 
mohavewolfpup
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:52 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:06 pm

Quoting CptSpeaking (Reply 47):
putting wired or mechanical linkage in one of these as a backup would completely defeat the purpose, would it not?

only for the airlines that just fired all the pilots and copilots in their fleet.

you know this is tailor made for airlines to further boost profits and reduce expenses....
 
buckfifty
Posts: 1278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: "Fly-By-Wireless" Concept Plane Flown

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:36 pm

Quoting Mohavewolfpup (Reply 45):
what was the deal with the A340 crash in toronto? wasn't that being flown by wire? or did the pilots have control during landing?

The crash in Toronto has no bearing whatsoever on FBW or flight control failures. So your analysis is perhaps a bit on the flawed side.

If I remember correctly, there were accidents involving F-16's during the early 80's due to wire chafing, and some control input reversals due to engineers plugging in the controls incorrectly. But on the whole, FBW has been quite reliable, and the redundancies involved ensures safety for commercial operations even during failure scenarios.

This wireless technology, I reckon, would be great for applications such as UAV's to save weight. But for commercial airliners? I'd hate to think that a kid with a laptop can hack into the flight control system, and go for a joyride. Kids these days, give them a computer, anything can happen...

Or perhaps as 2H4 pointed out, perhaps we're all a bit too paranoid.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: shamrocka330 and 17 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos