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JulianUK
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Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 6:45 am

If you have a tyre burst just before V1 decision speed is it safer to continue or stop - if you took off and came back for a full length runway landing which would be the safest option with a tyre out of action?
 
Newark777
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 7:10 am

If it is only a blown tire, I don't think it would make much sense to attempt a dangerous aborted takeoff, when you can just take off and circle around again to land.

Of course, I'm not a pilot.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
XXXX10
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 7:10 am

AFAIK A tyre burst is one of the few items that would normally result in an aborted take-off.

It would depend on how close to V1 the incident was noticed, If it was just a couple of knots below V1 speed then the a/c might continue.

[Edited 2006-05-21 00:15:29]

[Edited 2006-05-21 00:17:12]
 
gordonsmall
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 7:39 am

An important consideration when dealing with a burst tire would be the vastly reduced effect of the brakes on the wheel with the burst tire.

Attempting a high-speed (near V1) abort on a runway-limiting takeoff is not a decision to be taken lightly at the best of times, let alone with questionable stopping ability!

I suspect in most cases the sensible thing to do would be to continue the take-off, leave the gear down and deal with the problem on landing.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
2H4
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 7:49 am




Quoting Gordonsmall (Reply 3):
and deal with the problem on landing.

...when the trucks have already been rolled and are standing by.  yes 




2H4


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VuelingAirbus
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 7:59 am

Airbus has a whole chapter in FCOM3 dedicated to decision making and guidlines concerning rejected take off. In general terms you can divide the take off in two segments below and above 100 knots. Above 100 knots any rejected take off is a high speed abortion with its associated risks. Standard take off briefing ant my company is: "Below 100 knots we abort for anything, above hundred knots we abort only for red warnings, loss of power or control or if any of us has the feeling the A/C is unfit to fly... Tyre burst at V1 minus 20 knots is a go and we leave gear down and follow the engine out procedure. After V1..."

The books suggest that at V1 minus 20 knots the A/C is generating enough lift to relief pressure from the remaining tyres and it is better to go airborn, burn fuel, prepare for the emergency (bare in mind that if I reject the take off close to v1 with a burst tyre I might leave the runway to the side/end and I have to evacuate - no Pax or crew prepared, no firebrigade, other A/C moving around). If I go airborne, I will have time to prepare the emergency landing, reduce weight by burning fuel, cabin prepare PAX for an eventual evacuation, call fire brigade and ambulances, make use of the full runway lenght, airport and ATC can react and close the airport for others and so on...

A take off rejection because of a burst tyre close to v1 is a definate go (remember that the A/C is built to fly and its safer in that case to get into the air) , and a decision to stop holds many other risks esp. for the Pax.

hope I didn't get to carried away with the topic, but I really like it. It was fun to think about it...

Rgds...
 
2H4
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 8:07 am




Quoting VuelingAirbus (Reply 5):
I will have time to prepare the emergency landing, reduce weight by burning fuel, cabin prepare PAX for an eventual evacuation, call fire brigade and ambulances, make use of the full runway lenght,

....Notify all of the local news affiliates in time to get their helicopters on-scene....  Wink




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VuelingAirbus
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):
Notify all of the local news affiliates in time to get their helicopters on-scene....

I was thinking about that incident too while I was writing my post. And in spite of the helicopters and stuff, it ended in a well prepared (and press covered) emergency. The opposite was a KLM incident (around Xmas 2004) when it left the runway to one side in BCN and they evacuated. Around 100 confused Pax running around the apron and runway in the dark at night, other A/C still taxying around, airport closure, all other A/C in holdings, total chaos...
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting JulianUK (Thread starter):
If you have a tyre burst just before V1 decision speed is it safer to continue or stop - if you took off and came back for a full length runway landing which would be the safest option with a tyre out of action?

No brainer! Continue, as it's a much safer option than trying to abort. For the most part, you wouldn't even notice the tire if you're that close to V1, once airborne, you'd have the option of dumping fuel or burning it off. You could always divert to a airport with better weather and longer runway.

The decision to abort becomes even more of a no brainer as your weight increases. On the 744 for instance, I'd say much above 120 KIAS at MTOW you'd be much better continuing the takeoff vs. aborting.
Fly fast, live slow
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 10:02 am

Great thread. I like how it illustrates that pilots aren't mindless robots with their eyes riveted on the speed display. Decision making is much more nuanced than "The wing is falling off, but we're above V1. Let's go!" or "The coffee machines are inop and we're at V1-5. Abort!"
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Alias1024
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 10:52 am

Continue takeoff, leave it hanging, get the emergency vehicles and media standing by, ensure passengers are ready, get 15 minutes of fame when landing is live on CNN, get a beer.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
"The coffee machines are inop and we're at V1-5. Abort!"

Now, that is worthy of a high speed abort unless it's the last leg of the trip.  wink  I wouldn't want another three days with those flight attendants after putting them through that hell.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Any abort at or above 100 knots can be more of a problem than the blown tire is.
 
Matt72033
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 4:08 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 8):
You could always divert to a airport with better weather and longer runway.

would you ever carry on to your destnation airport? say you were flying somewhere with a long runway, and the weather looked good!
 
FlyingColours
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 9:13 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 12):
would you ever carry on to your destnation airport? say you were flying somewhere with a long runway, and the weather looked good!

With the gear extended, no Hapag-Lloyd tried that and this was the result

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They continued on, excessive drag meant more fuel burn and they ran out of fuel. A/C was written off too
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Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
Matt72033
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 11:39 pm

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 13):
With the gear extended, no Hapag-Lloyd tried that and this was the result

oh come on! obviously i didnt mean with the gear down! Geez!  Yeah sure
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 12):
would you ever carry on to your destnation airport? say you were flying somewhere with a long runway, and the weather looked good!

If you were sure you had blown a tire, you'd leave the gear down. There really is no sense of inducing more problems. Burn off fuel or dump as applicable and land. You wouldn't really continue on to your destination.

With that said, most of the time, in the 744, if you do have a tire failure you won't know it. You will retract the gear and proceed as normal.
Fly fast, live slow
 
gordonsmall
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 21, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 14):
oh come on! obviously i didnt mean with the gear down! Geez!

You would almost certainly want to leave the gear down if you suspected a tire burst. You wouldn't have much information about what state the gear assembly was in, and raising the gear might do even more damage. Also, with the tight spaces that aircraft gear assemblies are stowed into, I would be a bit concerned about whether it'll get stuck in the wheel well.

The only situation I can think of that would warrant raising the gear with a suspected tire burst would be if you had also lost an engine (whether due to tire debris or not), and the reduced engine-out climb performance with the gear down might mean that raising the gear and accepting the possible resulting damage is the lesser of two evils.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Mon May 22, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting JulianUK (Thread starter):
tyre burst just before V1 decision speed is it safer to continue or stop

Continue. As has been said above, and in other threads in the past, a high-speed RTO is one of the most critical and hazardous maneuvers a pilot is ever likely to undertake. Now you want to do it with one less tire? One less brake? I think not.

I'd leave the gear down unless I'd seriously blown the pre-flight planning and doing so meant flying into a hillside. Then I'd pull it but consider extending it again right away. I want someone to have a look at that wheel before I pull it up into the gear well. If there is a lot of damage out there it could jam UP. If it caught fire I don't want to tuck a burning tire up into my gearwell with the hydraulic reservoirs and roll control linkages and the center fuel tank just a fraction of an inch away behind an aluminum bulkhead.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 1):
Of course, I'm not a pilot.

Well you have a good start, you are developing the judgement necessary.

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 12):
would you ever carry on to your destnation airport? say you were flying somewhere with a long runway, and the weather looked good!

Perhaps. If you just took off out of a small-town airport with a marginal ARFF index and were headed for Metropolis. You don't mind burning off some fuel. Fuel and weight are not your best friends just now. Pressing on to destination over the tops of two dozen suitable airports - shaky!

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 13):
With the gear extended, no Hapag-Lloyd tried that and this was the result

Wheels extended and head UP and LOCKED. Pilots are still permitted to think, plan and exercise their judgement on an ongoing basis. They are still permitted to keep a running assessment of the situation and change their plans if it becomes obvious that Plan A might not work. In fact, if I'm their chief pilot or if I'm strapped in next to them I'm going to insist that they do these things. If all I've done is buy a ticket on their flight I will expect them to exercise good judgement or I will sue the snot out of them.

Every airplane I ever flew where we carried the performance manuals onboard, had 'Flight Planning - Landing Gear Down' charts and 'Flight Planning - One Engine Inoperative' charts and so on. Dispatch keeps these now and the numbers are only a mike-key away. Wonderful thing about being a pilot in this era is that you don't have to carry the whole burden yourself. You can ask for help. Call the company. Get other people working on the stuff you need.

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 14):
oh come on! obviously i didnt mean with the gear down! Geez!

As I said above, that might be okay. Clearly you are going to burn more fuel to maintain a given speed and you are going to be constrained by altitude and speed limits with gear extended. These things are going to shorten your range.

With tail mounted engines you might want to know whether rubber or other debris went through one of your engines. No nasty surprises once you've committed to a course of action.

One other factor. If the tire failure was a really obvious one the passengers know they had an explosion. If you don't pull the gear up that fact will get whispered around back there. If you are obviously not climbing out and continuing toward Hawaii, that will be obvious too. Not only do you need to talk to passengers and cabin crew but you don't want a guy with a weak heart fretting about this turn of events for four hours while you wallow off toward a slightly longer runway.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
JulianUK
Topic Author
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Mon May 22, 2006 2:41 am

Thanks amazing answers, detailed, I am sure I can almost do an ATPL theory by just sticking around here  Smile J
 
2H4
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Mon May 22, 2006 2:49 am




Quoting JulianUK (Reply 18):
I am sure I can almost do an ATPL theory by just sticking around here

...And if it should happen to contain questions about conveyor belts and bird-related cabin aerodynamics, you'll ACE it!  biggrin 




2H4


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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Mon May 22, 2006 9:28 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 15):
With that said, most of the time, in the 744, if you do have a tire failure you won't know it. You will retract the gear and proceed as normal.

I was just about to post this as well! In the MD-11 the TIRE FAIL level 2 alert is inhibited from V1-20 kts to 400'RA (so you won't abort). This happened to me out of EWR and the first we knew of it was at 400' after the gear was up so we proceeded to STN. Meanwhile dispatch notified STN ops and they had 6 hrs to get ready for our arrival. We landed with no autobrakes and taxied off the runway to be towed to the ramp. STN mechs had the tire changed before all the freight was off loaded with no loss of time...CC
 
levent
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sat May 27, 2006 8:33 pm

A KLM exel ERJ145's main gear tires bursted while rotating at Munich in 2001. The crew entered the holding pattern with extended gear to burn fuel, prepared an emergency landing and put the bird down in the best possible way. Everyone on board left the plane unharmed.
 
Mr.BA
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sat May 27, 2006 8:57 pm

I remember once a BA B744 informed the tower that they most probably are suffering from a burst tire and require the entire runway to roll as well as emergency services to be standing by. They taxied off the runway and back to gate on own power after that. I'm not sure whether they got it during the takeoff roll at LHR or it happened during mid-flight though.

Is the EICAS page for the gears only for brake temperature and some other information? I remember there is information on tire pressure as well? If yes why wouldn't it be possible to tell?

Thanks!
Boeing747 万岁!
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Sun May 28, 2006 11:47 pm

As an RTO (Rejected Take-Off) manoeuvre is possible before V1, i think it's better to do it, as nothing guarantees a safer landing after that  Wink
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Mon May 29, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 23):
As an RTO (Rejected Take-Off) manoeuvre is possible before V1, i think it's better to do it, as nothing guarantees a safer landing after that

Possible, but if you're almost at V1, it's very risky. In most cases, riskier than taking off. Pilots will only stop at high speeds before V1 in case of serious emergencies. A blown tyre doesn't normally enter into this.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Mon May 29, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 23):
As an RTO (Rejected Take-Off) manoeuvre is possible before V1, i think it's better to do it, as nothing guarantees a safer landing after that

Not really. Rejects in a heavy jet close to V1 are usually a bigger risk than continuing. As I posted above that's why the Tire Fail alert is inhibited from V1-20kts to 400'RA(MD-11). They don't want you to abort. If you abort close to V1 with a blown tire there is a very good chance you'll blow more tires, possibly have a fire and may leave the runway. If you continue, you burn fuel off, run any checklist, have equip standing by and you make a much lighter wgt. ldg.
 
2H4
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Mon May 29, 2006 3:51 am




Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 25):

So it's all about minimizing the amount of kinetic energy to be absorbed, right?




2H4


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greasespot
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Mon May 29, 2006 4:59 am

I was sitting in a jumpseat of a B737 when a tire burst. I beat the flap and they did not know what it was so they aborted......I then had to go out and start to change All the tires and brakes and they overheated them and burst.....A highspeed reject is a BIG deal......

I wish they had continued.  wink 

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Mon May 29, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):
So it's all about minimizing the amount of kinetic energy to be absorbed, right?

Just consider it's the difference of making a MAX braking stop from say 150+ kts on the remaining runway or a min. brakes stop from 150 kts on the full length. On my ldg. with a flat tire I didn't even use the brakes till we were down to less than 100 kts. It was very easy on me and the jet.
 
2H4
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Mon May 29, 2006 6:08 am



Thanks, Cosmic. Your perspective is much appreciated.  Smile




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SlamClick
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Mon May 29, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 23):
As an RTO (Rejected Take-Off) manoeuvre is possible before V1

Possible but it is calculated on your having the full number of inflated main tires - all served by working brakes. A blown main tire on 737/A-320/MD-80 etc reduces your total number of tires braking by 25% Furthermore, it is not uncommon when a main tire sheds its cap for that to sever a brake line.

What do you think of your odds now?

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 23):
i think it's better to do it

Well, if I was your chief pilot or your FAA or equivalent inspector I believe I would have to disagree with you.

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 23):
as nothing guarantees a safer landing after that

Absolutely incorrect.
In the keyboard graphic below we are taking off and landing from LEFT to RIGHT.
A is the beginning of the runway.
D is the far end of the runway


A_________B_________________________C____________D


Now your plan has us trying to stop the airplane from, say 125 knots between C and D with one of its four brakes inoperative, the crash crew sitting upstairs at the firehouse watching television and the passengers and flight attendants suddenly terrified and no time to prepare for what is going to happen.

My plan has me trying to stop the airplane from say 135 knots between B and D after preparing the passenger cabin, briefing the flight attendants for a possible evac and with the fire trucks standing by.

Sorry, I like my plan better.

Years ago I had dinner with a well-known test pilot from a major manufacturer of airliners. He said that in Part 91 flying for the factory he had the luxury of a little more latitude in the decisions he could make; specifically he'd decided that if he blew a tire above maybe 70-80 knots he was going to continue the takeoff. He, a really well educated test pilot believed it safer. I shall not presume to debate his wisdom.

I've had all manner of emergencies over the years running the gamut and I consider a rejected takeoff from high speed to be one of the most critical, riskiest maneuvers the average pilot will ever have to undertake. I am 'spring-loaded' to continue, not to reject.

Further, there is nothing inherently dangerous in taking a blown tire into the air. It's not like you've lost an engine or like you are on fire. The chances in fact, of a wheel fire are far greater in an RTO than in taking off and leaving the gear extended.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
jetflyer
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Mon May 29, 2006 12:23 pm

Aborting takeoffs near V1 wth a burst tire are in theory and have proven to be clearly and possibly fatal.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19820913-0&lang=en

And this is what happens when you try to do it above Vrotate. Crazy.

[Edited 2006-05-29 05:23:50]
 
DC-10Tech
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RE: Tyre Burst Just Before Take Off V1 - Do What?

Mon May 29, 2006 6:51 pm

Quoting JulianUK (Thread starter):
If you have a tyre burst just before V1 decision speed is it safer to continue or stop - if you took off and came back for a full length runway landing which would be the safest option with a tyre out of action?

You go.

Quoting Jetflyer (Reply 31):
Aborting takeoffs near V1 wth a burst tire are in theory and have proven to be clearly and possibly fatal

Exactly. There have been numerous accidents caused by pilots deciding to reject takeoff beyond V1. Of course, V1 can also be the absolute maximum speed at which a takeoff can be aborted, but that speed is passed through so quickly that by the time the pilot takes first RTO action, its going to be too late.
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