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greg3322
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Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:06 am

Here is the story:

We were getting ready to takeoff on a CRJ-900 (airline and airports shall remain nameless to protect the guilty). During taxi out, I noticed that the slats were not deployed. On just about every flight I have been on, the slats and flaps were extended just before or immediately after starting to taxi. We taxi onto the runway, and sat for about 1.5 minutes, then quickly taxied off the other side. The power was never brought up.

We sat just clear of the runway for several more minutes. I can here alert/indicator sounds coming from the cockpit (I was sitting towards the front). Another minute goes by and I see the slats come out. We then taxi to the next intersection and hold short of the runway again.

The captain came on and said something like "We'll folks, we had our release, but we had to taxi clear of the runway due to another aircraft on short final (pure BS). ATC advises us that our release will be in another 14 minutes."

We took off at the promised time and had an uneventful flight, other than turning off the very last intersection of a 10,000' runway.

So did the crew forget to extend the slats/flaps? I am not familiar enough with the CRJ family (particularly the -900) to know if they can take off with 0 flaps. What kind of warning system do they have to prevent it if they can't?

Thanks,

Greg
 
Ralgha
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:14 am

Not many operators of the CRJ-900. My guess would be Mesa? Sounds like something they'd do. Assuming of course that your assumption is correct.
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bri2k1
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:39 am

It's hard for me to imagine they flat-out forgot them. It's not impossible, it's just hard for me to imagine. Maybe there was a system malfunction that was able to be rectified by the crew and they chose to embellish the story a bit in case of queasy passengers. It just seems unlikely they would sit there for a number of minutes, as you relate in the story, and not figure it out immediately (with warning horns going off!)
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Grbld
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:47 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 1):
My guess would be Mesa? Sounds like something they'd do.

That's nice, Mr. Gold Seal Flight Instructor.

Greg, all commercial aircraft that are NOT certified for flaps up takeoffs have a warning horn or similar takeoff warning system which also goes off when applying takeoff thrust with the parking brake set or the stab trim not configured.

Most likely, they forgot. Which sounds really terrible, but any person thinking they'll never do something stupid like that is overestimating himself (even if you're a Gold Seal Flight Instructor). I've had it happen myself when right after taxiing out (on a 757), which is the time you set takeoff flaps, a system malfunction occurred. While troubleshooting and going through manuals and talking to maintenance, we taxiied to a remote parking spot and after we fixed the problem, we taxiied to the runway. Still a bit distracted, we both failed to see the flaps were still up during the before takeoff checklist. After doing a checklist 1000 times, you know what each response should be, you can dream it in your sleep. And it just goes to show how easy it is to THINK that the indicator reads what you expect it does, but it really doesn't.

So then, when spooling up the engines, the EICAS and takeoff warning horn immediately came on, pulled the power back, set the flaps, and, slightly embarrassed, went on our merry way.

Mistakes happen, even when they shouldn't, and they can happen to anyone. It makes one a better pilot to recognize that it can happen to yourself and my example was a good reminder of that.

Grbld
 
EMBQA
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting Greg3322 (Thread starter):
What kind of warning system do they have to prevent it if they can't?

Config Warning will go off.. in most cases when the power levers pass the 64deg switch.

Quoting Greg3322 (Thread starter):
We taxi onto the runway, and sat for about 1.5 minutes, then quickly taxied off the other side. The power was never brought up.......The captain came on and said something like "We'll folks, we had our release, but we had to taxi clear of the runway due to another aircraft on short final (pure BS). ATC advises us that our release will be in another 14 minutes."

No, not BS.. very common this time of the year. Ground Stops happen all the time.
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greg3322
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:09 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
No, not BS.. very common this time of the year. Ground Stops happen all the time.

The ground stop wasn't the BS part - the aircraft on short final was. We wouldn't have sat in position for a minute and a half otherwise! I had a clear view of the approach path as well.

I think the had their release, aborted the departure and had to wait for a new one. If only I was on UA with ch 9...

Greg
 
dl757md
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:09 am

Greg3322

Did the engines ever spool up once you were on the runway the first time? If they didn't then probably there was a ground hold. If they did then they would have gotten the T/O warning and aborted the T/O.

DL757Md
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greg3322
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 6):
Did the engines ever spool up once you were on the runway the first time? If they didn't then probably there was a ground hold. If they did then they would have gotten the T/O warning and aborted the T/O.

No, they didn't. That was the one odd part. But, the flaps were still up, even as we taxied into position.

Is there some kind of "everything is set for T/O" indicator - or the lack of indicators in a dark cockpit environment? My thought was that this was not in the correct state, so they aborted.

Greg
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:32 pm

Quoting Greg3322 (Thread starter):
What kind of warning system do they have to prevent it if they can't?

Audio Horn & Visual Alert Warnings for T/O warnings.
regds
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ilikeyyc
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:05 pm

Quoting Greg3322 (Thread starter):
What kind of warning system do they have to prevent it if they can't?

The 700/900 will give the crew a "config flaps" message on EICAS (can't remember of it is a caution or warning) as well as an aural "Config Flaps" alert when:

    the aircraft is on the ground
    the flaps are not at 20 degrees
    the slats are not at thier full 25 degrees
    engine rpm (can't remember if its N1 or N2) is above 70%
    no reverse thrust is selected


Since you indicated that they never powered up, it is likely that the crew noticed their mistake before the airplane did because engine RPM >70% is required to trigger the alarm. In my mind, good CRM skills would make a person realize "Hey, I forgot the flaps, what else did I forget?" and that the best course of action might be to exit the runway and run the checklist again (or for the first time) to make sure nothing else was forgotten.
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Tg 747-300
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:16 pm

For this question lets assume that the reason the aircraft taxied clear of the rwy was the incorect flap setting.

What will happen to the pilots in such a case. Aircraft had to delay take off by 14 mins. which burns extra fuel, and might also delay the flight. I'll assume dispatch etc. will need a reason for why thay taxied clear etc.... And if the reason was "pilot error" what happens?

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Starlionblue
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:38 pm

Quoting Tg 747-300 (Reply 10):
For this question lets assume that the reason the aircraft taxied clear of the rwy was the incorect flap setting.

What will happen to the pilots in such a case. Aircraft had to delay take off by 14 mins. which burns extra fuel, and might also delay the flight. I'll assume dispatch etc. will need a reason for why thay taxied clear etc.... And if the reason was "pilot error" what happens?

My guess is that the pilot will be told to be more careful  Wink

As has been said, these things happen. The measure of the pilot is not that the error occured, but the steps he took to rectify it.
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SlamClick
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting Tg 747-300 (Reply 10):
lets assume that the reason the aircraft taxied clear of the rwy was the incorect flap setting

I consider that pretty unlikely since the the takeoff was never initiated.

Quoting Tg 747-300 (Reply 10):
What will happen to the pilots in such a case. Aircraft had to delay take off by 14 mins.

Likely the whole incident is already forgotten. After all nothing bad happened. Crew not being ready has delayed takeoffs every single day that air travel has existed. Fourteen minutes of ground-idle fuel burn is nothing alongside attempting to take off with the plane not configured.

If a takeoff had been commenced then aborted because of a configuration warning, then the tower must log the aborted takeoff. That can start the paper avalanche that could lead to the pilots doing a carpet dance before their chief pilot or the FAA. This did not happen.

Quoting Tg 747-300 (Reply 10):
.... And if the reason was "pilot error" what happens?

"Pilot error" is a media phrase, not an industry phrase.

To assume that the pilots would need to be punished for this you must assume that they violated some safety regulation or some important bit of company policy or procedure. We don't have any such evidence yet.

Many people believe that when any little thing goes wrong the pilots will be, or should be fired. This is based on some very questionable assumptions: One would be that the pilots you hire to replace them will be in some magical way, superior to the ones you fired. This is just not likely to be so. The other is that it ignores the extremely high cost of training a new crew to the proficiency level (disregarding the one incident) of the terminated crew.

Firing an experienced, knowledgeable, highly trained employee in any industry should be a very grave step. In just about any such case it is indicative of management failings as much as simple human errors.
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2H4
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:34 am




Quoting SlamClick (Reply 12):
If a takeoff had been commenced then aborted because of a configuration warning, then the tower must log the aborted takeoff.

Are takeoff config aborts the only aborts required to be logged, or must every abort be logged?




2H4


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SlamClick
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 13):
Are takeoff config aborts the only aborts required to be logged, or must every abort be logged?

That second thing.

Tower does not know why you aborted unless you tell them. I knew of a crew that did one and did not know it would be reported. They had the stab trim set right near one end of the green band and one might argue the microswitch setting in such a case. It looked right to them!

Anyway they stood up the thrust levers and released the brakes and got a takeoff config warning. They understood what the problem was instantly but did the right thing, they sawed off the power and took the next runway exit. Once clear of the runway they ran down the entire list of items that can trigger the warning and confirmed everything. As the runway was not visible from the tower due to tule fog, they announced what had happened. Then they reset the stab trim just a bit farther into the green and rejoined the line for takeoff.

It ground its way through the official channels and landed them in front of the chief pilot's desk. No suspension or anything, just a chewing.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Grbld (Reply 3):
That's nice, Mr. Gold Seal Flight Instructor.

Just becuase he has that term in his profile doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. Besides, did you even look at the rest of his profile, or do you just look for things to make fun of?
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Tg 747-300
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 12):

Thanks Great answer.

What I was besically trying to do was make a scenario based upon the mentioned flight. like a "what if"

And i totaly agree that "pilot error" is a media hype, but its still an "easy/common way" to describe it.

tg 747-300
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Grbld
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:05 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 15):
Besides, did you even look at the rest of his profile, or do you just look for things to make fun of?

Yes, I looked at his profile, but are you seriously going to defend someone who is a flight instructor and dares to state that he 'expects' pilots of a certain airline to make a 'dumb' mistake just because they work at that airline?

That, combined with the attitude of 'hah, those stupid a$$es, that wouldn't happen to a better airline, or, for that matter, to ME!' is a VERY bad attitude, especially as a CFI.

My 10 years as a pilot have, unfortunately, been long enough to meet more than one person with that kind of attitude who are now DEAD because they thought they wouldn't make stupid mistakes and ended up doing just that. Paid for it with their lives.

So my number one philosophy to give onto any student pilot is: Know yourself, and your limitations. Don't mock someone else's mistakes, because you may make them yourself. And knowing that you can, just might keep you alive.


Grbld
 
Ralgha
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:58 pm

Hm, I'd love to see where I said I was perfect, cause gosh, I just can't seem to find it. What I said was a crack at the company, which happens to be a major thorn in the side of many pilots in this country. What I said, while admittedly rude, spur of the moment, not well thought out, and not applying to most of their pilots, was actually quite mild compared to what is typically said. Head on over to flightinfo.com if you want to see some true bashing.

What you are saying, however, is not a crack, but a well thought out and fully intentioned blast at someone whom you have never met, do not know, and don't like based on an assumption that has no basis in reality or fact.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:07 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 12):
If a takeoff had been commenced then aborted because of a configuration warning, then the tower must log the aborted takeoff.

Actually once an aircraft is "position and hold" and you taxi off the runway without departing an entry in the tower log is done, then I believe it goes to Flight Standards for reveiw and who knows where beyond that.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Grbld
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 18):
What you are saying, however, is not a crack, but a well thought out and fully intentioned blast at someone whom you have never met, do not know, and don't like based on an assumption that has no basis in reality or fact.

Hi Ralgha, don't worry, I do not not like you (yes, double 'not') because you're right, I don't know you (you just assumed that I don't like you?). Anyway, we can keep on tittytatting back and forth, the fact of the matter is that you made a very generalizing and bashing remark. I don't believe it's unintentional but I don't believe you did it to actively state that you hate Mesa pilots either. And the fact that at some other forum, there's more bashing going on, is no excuse of course.

As for my "well thought out blast", can you honestly blame anyone for being offended when someone makes a snide, generalizing remark at a group of pilots that they don't know? I will stick to my opinion that this is not something a pilot should do, and especially not an attitude that should be passed on from CFI to student.

It's nothing personal against you but for anyone who believes that something stupid as forgetting to set the flaps for takeoff won't happen to them.

Grbld
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:25 am

Grbld—

I find it hard to believe that you are really that dense, so I'll spell it out for you anyway. Ralgha is not a flight instructor, but a first officer for a major regional airline for quite some time now. He has not flight instructed for quite some time, and has no need to. He works day in and day out with many pilots who have left Mesa for a better workplace, so he does have a basis to go on.

Now, when was the last time a CFI called himself a 'first officer.' That would make the student the captain, right? No, I don't think so.
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2H4
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:46 am



I've been following this thread for awhile now, and I have personally found Grbld's posts to be perfectly logical and respectful. He's made some valid points, backed them up with personal experience, and maintained a perfectly civil tone. His posts do not strike me as being "dense", and he doesn't strike me as an individual who needs the discussion "spelled out" for him.

If Ralgha does indeed have a basis for his disparaging remarks about Mesa, he should have included those details in his original remark to remove any doubt. Without that clarification, the original remarks could only be interpreted as baseless bashing of Mesa pilots.




2H4


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SlamClick
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 19):

Actually once an aircraft is "position and hold" and you taxi off the runway without departing an entry in the tower log is done

I did not know that. Thanks.

It does make sense. Accepting a clearance into position and hold we are signalling that we are ready for what happens next. If we then change our mind, that might be an indication that something; our procedures, something might need attention.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
phxpilot
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:34 am

As a CRJ-900 driver for Mesa Airlines, if that was the airline, the flaps are set to a takeoff position of either 8 or 20 degrees as part of the before takeoff flow and verified on the Before Takeoff Checklist.

The airplane itself has a couple of warning features as well. On the primary EICAS display is the flap indicator which is verified with what is required. Should the required items (trim, autopilot, parking brake, flaps) be properly configured for takeoff a green EICAS advisory message of "TAKEOFF CONFIG OK" will be displayed. This is verified upon completion of the checklist when cleared onto the runway.

The second warning feature comes into play if not properly configured and the thrust levers are advanced, in which case you will get a flashing red MASTER WARNING light, triple chimes, and an aural warning which in this case would be "CONFIG FLAPS."

If the thrust levers were never advanced, I would suspect something else had happened as it does not require 14 minutes to extend the flaps.

At Mesa, if a takeoff is aborted it requires a maintenance write-up, an occurence report, and coordination with our maintenance controllers and dispatcher. This is something we try to avoid through the use of standard and specific normal procedures which also have the obvious benefit of a high level of safety.
 
greg3322
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:53 am

Phlxpilot,

I think you hit it. Since they never advanced the thrust levers, they most likely checked and did not have the TAKEOFF CONFIG OK message and was trying to figure it out. It then sounds like they took the safe course and exited the runway and went through the checklists again.

The 14 minutes waiting was after (I assume) they figured out the problem. I think that was a true waiting for release. Of course, they had a release already, but failed to act upon it 8-)

Just to explain my reason for this thread - just curiosity. I have been a pilot for 18 years and have made a mistake here and there. I like to know that sometime even airline pilots are human. I certainly have no intentions of getting anyone in trouble, otherwise I would have posted all the flight info.

Greg

Quoting Phxpilot (Reply 24):
The airplane itself has a couple of warning features as well. On the primary EICAS display is the flap indicator which is verified with what is required. Should the required items (trim, autopilot, parking brake, flaps) be properly configured for takeoff a green EICAS advisory message of "TAKEOFF CONFIG OK" will be displayed. This is verified upon completion of the checklist when cleared onto the runway.

The second warning feature comes into play if not properly configured and the thrust levers are advanced, in which case you will get a flashing red MASTER WARNING light, triple chimes, and an aural warning which in this case would be "CONFIG FLAPS."

If the thrust levers were never advanced, I would suspect something else had happened as it does not require 14 minutes to extend the flaps.
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:39 am

Something that doesn't make any sense in your story. What does having no flaps have to do with the plane exiting the runway after lining up? Most likely they had a ground stop and they had to get off the runway. I think this part is completely irrelevant to your claim. Just say that the pilots forgot to use flaps. The pilots could have just added the flaps on the runway, no need to abort anything or get off the runway to add flaps. Also as far as pilot BS, I don't think they really need to BS anybody about aircraft on short final, you probably never saw the aircraft.

[Edited 2006-06-15 20:45:04]
 
greg3322
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 26):
Something that doesn't make any sense in your story. What does having no flaps have to do with the plane exiting the runway after lining up? Most likely they had a ground stop and they had to get off the runway. I think this part is completely irrelevant to your claim. Just say that the pilots forgot to use flaps. The pilots could have just added the flaps on the runway, no need to abort anything or get off the runway to add flaps. Also as far as pilot BS, I don't think they really need to BS anybody about aircraft on short final, you probably never saw the aircraft.

AirWillie6475,

Wow... My story is what it is. If you don't believe it, too bad.

Maybe they didn't realize what the problem was while we were sitting on the runway? Maybe the tower told them to take off or get off?

I had a clear view of the final approach. There was no aircraft for about 8 or 9 minutes.

Greg
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:41 am

Quoting Greg3322 (Reply 27):
Wow... My story is what it is. If you don't believe it, too bad.

It's not that I don't believe, it's just that it's confusing when you include that vacating the runway part when it has nothing to do with flaps being up.
 
greg3322
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 28):
It's not that I don't believe, it's just that it's confusing when you include that vacating the runway part when it has nothing to do with flaps being up.

I am sorry you found it confusing. I just told the entire story and I do think it was relevant.

Greg
 
Mir
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:55 am

Quoting Greg3322 (Reply 27):
I had a clear view of the final approach. There was no aircraft for about 8 or 9 minutes.

How could you have a clear view of final when you were on the runway? You said:

Quoting Greg3322 (Thread starter):
The captain came on and said something like "We'll folks, we had our release, but we had to taxi clear of the runway due to another aircraft on short final (pure BS). ATC advises us that our release will be in another 14 minutes."

If I understand you correctly (which I might not), you taxied onto the runway, held for a bit, then taxied off again, which the captain attributed to a plane on short final. You then had to wait for another release. There could have very easily been another plane creeping up on you while you were on the runway trying to figure out what was wrong, and you wouldn't know about it because you can't see behind you in a CRJ.

-Mir
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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:08 pm

Greg: from reading your story- There is no possibility whatsoever that the reason you guys cleared the runway b/c the pilots forgot the flaps. It sounds like they missed their release time is all or had a mx problem and didn't want to alarm the passengers. Many things in the CRJ can simply be reset from in the cockpit via circuit breakers.
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darrenthe747
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:29 pm

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 1):
My guess would be Mesa? Sounds like something they'd do.

That sounds like something Northwest Airlines would do too the I guess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_255
Norhthwest Airlines flight 255
"The NTSB investigation indicated that the flaps were in the up position and the slats were in the retract position, opposite their normal position for takeoff. The cockpit recorder showed that the taxi checklist was not recited by the pilots, this was due to inappropriate flirting/distractions with the flight attendant."

Or maybe Delta Airlines too. That sounds like something Delta Airlines might do as well:
http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/delta.htm
Delta Airlines Flight 1141
"Probable cause (1) the captain and first officer's inadequate cockpit discipline which resulted in the flightcrew's attempt to takeoff without the wing flaps and slats properly configured"

Quoting Grbld (Reply 3):
That's nice, Mr. Gold Seal Flight Instructor.

 checkmark 

Quoting Grbld (Reply 17):
That, combined with the attitude of 'hah, those stupid a$$es, that wouldn't happen to a better airline, or, for that matter, to ME!' is a VERY bad attitude, especially as a CFI.

 checkmark 

Mistakes happen. Not just to Mesa Airlines.

Greg it sounds like you aren't asking anybody if they forgot to set the flaps for takeoff because you keep debunking everyboies theories. You're telling us they forgot.
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
 
bond007
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:03 pm

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 31):
There is no possibility whatsoever that the reason you guys cleared the runway b/c the pilots forgot the flaps.

It's obvious that nobody here knows EXACTLY the reasons why they cleared the runway. Anything is a possibility!

Quoting Phxpilot (Reply 24):
a green EICAS advisory message of "TAKEOFF CONFIG OK" will be displayed. This is verified upon completion of the checklist when cleared onto the runway.

so, do you get ...

Quoting Greg3322 (Thread starter):
alert/indicator sounds

..if the takeoff config is NOT OK, or just a message? If not, then this isn't the alert he heard.

We really don't know what happened here folks.

Jimbo
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RE: Forgot T/O Flaps On CRJ-900?

Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:36 am

"The power was never brought up.

We sat just clear of the runway for several more minutes. I can here alert/indicator sounds coming from the cockpit (I was sitting towards the front)."



This quote right here tells me that they didn't forget. The "Config flaps" warning and aural will not sound unless the power is brought up. It sounds like a maintenance problem. Any number of system faults and resets can cause alarms to be heard from the cockpit.
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