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runway777
Topic Author
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Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:41 am

Im just wondering, just getting an idea of how pilots think.

I was talking to some pilots the other day for AC and West Jet right? And I noticed, most of them accepted women in aviation, but a lot of them still dont like that idea.

I am just wondernig how you pilot feel? I have seen many more women pilots lately and its real positive and kind of shows me that if they can do it, so can I. Dont worry, say how you feel. Im just getting some ideas.

thanks
kalli
"kalli, be the best pilot you can be, who happens to be a girl" -Joe White
 
lowrider
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:11 am

Most of the people I have flown with have no problem with women in various parts of aviation. I have flown with a variety of women and have found them to be just as competent as thier male counterparts.

The only time I have seen guys get wound up is when hiring minimums come up. It has been well publicized that certain major carriers in the US hired women with far fewer flight hours and less relevent experience then male applicants had. It is not just the case of one exceptionally gifted pilot, either. It was an established trend and it was done in the name of "Equal Opportunity". If this will continue when hiring starts up in earnest again is anyone's guess. United was probably the worst offender, but not the only one.
Proud OOTSK member
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:23 am

Honestly I'd really like to see a lot more women out there in the cockpit. My upset recovery training instructor is a girl. She is really, really good. A bit too anal at times, but a superb pilot overall. And she has the passion for it too...

Which takes me to my next point...

I will have to say something that will sound sexist. Here at my school, there's many female pilots, but a lot of them are way behind in their flight training, and much more of them drop out, compared to the males in the same year as them. Why? Lack of interest. There is one BIG problem I see in common with most (90%) of the ladies here; they all seem to only have a passing interest in aviation. In my freshman year, there were 5 girls in my dorm that were in pilot training, of those, 4 dropped out. The remaining girl is a bit behind, but moving along. But non of them really had that much of an interest, and they all complained on how much work it was and how difficult it was (which sums how training in ERAU is like quite nicely Big grin ) . I'm sure they would've been better off at a mom and pop FBO for getting instruction. It gives me the impression most of them thought it'd be a walk in the park, saw the reality of things, and then got frustrated and left.

I'm sure there's a lot more to it than that, but it's just something I've noticed so far and most of the instructors here at school agree thats a major problem they see in most girls.
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:07 am

I have flown with some female friends of mine and had a blast! I doesn't matter to me if I have to fly a plane with a guy or gal.
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
SlamClick
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 2):
the ladies here; they all seem to only have a passing interest in aviation.

Kind of like my daughter. She wanted to be a Naval aviator. Then Tom Cruise made a couple more movies and she knew she didn't want to be a pool hustler or a bartender. So she became a dispatcher.  Smile

I took my first flight instruction from a woman. Though her son actually soloed me, she took me most of the way to my private license and remained my good friend until her death a couple of years ago. Since then, although I know any number of female pilots I've not had the pleasure of flying with any of them except in the simulator.

Most of the pilots I know are pretty reasonable and realistic about women pilots. The few who are not are pretty much jerks in other areas as well, so what's new?

One friend flew a demonstration flight (military) with a certain "legend" who refused every clearance from female controllers. This did not change my opinion of this individual as I had already formed certain negative impressions about him.

Once, when I was a newhire at an airline we shared the hotel van with another crew. The captain on that crew stuck out his hand and introduced himself - very friendly. Then he said: "So tell me Slam, how do you like all these [racial slur]s and women in the cockpit of these jet airplanes?"

I am hardly naive, I'm not even without some prejudices but I was shocked. I mean I was a total stranger, I only happened to be a white male and he presumed to say something like that! I stammered something like: "Well, I think there is a law requiring it..." Sorry to say I did not take a righteous stance, but took the easy way out. He said: "That sounds like an interview answer!" I thought, but did not say that it hadn't sounded like and interview question.

So yes, as of twenty years ago, when women in the cockpit were really pretty common, (the situation was common, I don't mean the women were common!!!) there was some out-and-out bigotry in that area.

I've always liked what Amelia Earhart told young women at colleges on her speaking tours. She encouraged them to try out lots of different things, anything that caught their fancy and if (to translate pretty loosely here) if they suck at it - quit.

Seems like pretty good advice for any of us.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:51 am

I've had a number of female students. My general rule is pretty easy: As long as you don't smell and don't try to kill me I'll fly with you  Smile

Yeah, it's still a boys' club but I think that mentality is starting to change as it is in many other male-dominated fields.
DMI
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 2):
of the ladies here; they all seem to only have a passing interest in aviation.

I had typed a reply but my ruddy laptop crashed. Abridged version;

I think you could replace the word aviation with pretty much any technical field, with the possible exception of medicine.

If there's any generalisation I can infer from this, it is that women seem to prefer "people" careers, ones that involve a skill that most seem to innately have - caring and nurturing. Little girls want ponies. Little boys want a motorbike.

So I'm not sure that aviators, mechanics, IT professionals etc are primarily male because women are actively excluded. I think it's more that women in general (and my fiance isn't one of them I might add) just don't care about such things.
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
Stealthz
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 1):
It was an established trend and it was done in the name of "Equal Opportunity".

It was common in many industries during the '80s & '90s and had NOTHING to do with "Equal Oppoortunity" and everything to do with "Affirmative Action". This was a concept to ensure that women, minorities, handicapped etc were properly represented in the workplace.
Nice concept but poorly executed, there were levels of hiring mandated, some by law, some by the corporations themselves.. what it meant was that if 2 identically qualified people applied for a position, the straight healthy white male would lose, often even if better qualified! Hirers were anxious to be seen meeting quotas.
The scheme backfired in many cases as members of those groups and minorities that had worked extra hard to achieve and get ahead were increasingly seen as just being there to make up the numbers.

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
runway777
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:23 am

thanks guys.
lots of pilots have said some rude things to me, but i want this real bad. So i will do it!
"kalli, be the best pilot you can be, who happens to be a girl" -Joe White
 
futureualpilot
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:55 am

Quoting Runway777 (Thread starter):
I am just wondernig how you pilot feel?

Doesn't bother me, most of my dual for both the private and instrument has been with female instructors. The gender/race/religion/whatever of another pilot does not bother me as long as they are a decent person and won't get me killed/bend an airplane...even then, none of which really matters.

Quoting Runway777 (Reply 8):
thanks guys.
lots of pilots have said some rude things to me, but i want this real bad. So i will do it!

Good luck, see you in the skies someday!

[Edited 2006-11-17 03:02:47]
Life is better when you surf.
 
runway777
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:26 am

hey thanks. back at ya hunn!!
"kalli, be the best pilot you can be, who happens to be a girl" -Joe White
 
N231YE
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:58 am

For me, I see through gender differences...It doesn't matter if a pilot is female or male. I do not want to see a girl not accomplish her dream: the same dream that I have had and the one that will forevermore guide my life...to fly.

Unfortunately, I see genderization all the time towards female pilots, however, the guys that bring it on I believe are flying just to look "macho," and they don't like the fact that the very thing they are after, girls, can fly an airplane too.
 
runway777
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:31 pm

i agree.
thanks guys for being honest.
"kalli, be the best pilot you can be, who happens to be a girl" -Joe White
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 6):
think you could replace the word aviation with pretty much any technical field, with the possible exception of medicine

I agree. It may be a broad generalization, but accurate for the most part I believe. Of course, it depends on the person, as with everything else.

Quoting Runway777 (Reply 8):
lots of pilots have said some rude things to me

Don't let those a$$holes harass you. Put them in their place. Don't let what they say to you bother you. I'm sure it can be hard at times, but you have to be strong, really strong, to reach your dreams. But honestly I think you couldn't have picked a better time to start flying, most of the gender barriers in the industry are non-existent anymore.

Females will always be welcomed in my cockpit, specially if they're single Big grin
 
Lucky42
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:05 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 1):
United was probably the worst offender, but not the only one

You are absolutely correct about that. I know one female United hired into a DC-10 FE slot with 300 hrs No turbine time embry riddle grad. But my cousin was an USCG academy grad with 3000 hrs half of that command time in the C130 out of Kodiak Alaska in rough weather flying and United didn't give him the time of day. So I think this affirmative action while well intentioned does a disservice to minorities and women because everyone including myself look and say UMM I wonder how many hours he or she has because they will be looked at as substandard. Whether it is right or not is not the point. I know plenty of black and women pilots who are fantastic and have a butt load of experience but this affirmative action crap makes people look at them funny and they are every bit as qualified as anyone else when you lower the standards for whatever reason you hurt the whole cause...I am sure I will get flamed for this anyway but this is how I feel...If you have the time fine but no lowering of standards for ANYONE period!
 
lowrider
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:16 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 7):
It was common in many industries during the '80s & '90s and had NOTHING to do with "Equal Oppoortunity" and everything to do with "Affirmative Action".

You are right. I used the wrong term.

Quoting Runway777 (Reply 8):
thanks guys.
lots of pilots have said some rude things to me, but i want this real bad. So i will do it!

Sorry to hear it, unfortunately a thick skin is pretty much a requirement in this field, as is a healthy sense of humor. You will have to spend extended periods of time with a variety of people, some of whom will annoy or insult you more than you thought possible. Don't limit it to men either, women can be obnoxious too. You will develop your own coping mechanisms. It is also important to realize that you probably will have some habits or mannerisms that will drive the other person equally insane.
Proud OOTSK member
 
aogdesk
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:50 am

A few years ago, I had a guy (captain) look me in the eye and say "I can't figure out why a woman would want to do a man's job".....didn't quite know how to respond to that.

More recently, a female captain told me that someone asked her young son if he wanted to be a pilot when he grew up. Considering his mom's profession, he replied "No way......thats a girls job!!"
 
SlamClick
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting Runway777 (Reply 8):
lots of pilots have said some rude things to me

Sorry about that, but it does help trim down your Christmas card list. Sorry to say it will not likely end in your lifetime. But it is going away. Most airlines have pretty aggressive policies on sexual harassment. You will probably be somewhat protected against any serious annoyance.

If you like flying, press on with it. You will not be happy doing anything else and I don't think there is a job out there that is really any more friendly to women.

I'm sorry now that I didn't get to fly with many women. You know the conversation up there on the flight deck gets kind of boring month after month with no one but another old hairy-legged guy like me to talk to. I swear we all had the same experiences, formed the same opinions and so on. I think it would be refreshing to talk to a woman once in a while.

BTW back up in reply #4 I stated that I had not actually flown revenue flights with female pilots. I realized later that was completely untrue. I did so on quite a few "heavy crew" international flights.

One woman friend of mine flew for (had seniority #1) at a commuter airline in SoCal. She said she had a female first officer one month and several times they'd see businessmen walk across the ramp toward the airplane, see two women in the cockpit and turn around, go back and wait for the next plane. After the first couple of times it amused them to make themselves as conspicuous as possible before the flight. See how many MCPs they could weed out.  Smile
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
runway777
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 13):
Don't let those a$$holes harass you. Put them in their place. Don't let what they say to you bother you. I'm sure it can be hard at times, but you have to be strong, really strong, to reach your dreams. But honestly I think you couldn't have picked a better time to start flying, most of the gender barriers in the industry are non-existent anymore.

Females will always be welcomed in my cockpit, specially if they're single

ha ha ha. thanks.
I seriously dont care what they think. Its not a mans job, yes in the past it was, but no more and more women are getting involved and they have to live with it.
"kalli, be the best pilot you can be, who happens to be a girl" -Joe White
 
runway777
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
Sorry to hear it, unfortunately a thick skin is pretty much a requirement in this field, as is a healthy sense of humor. You will have to spend extended periods of time with a variety of people, some of whom will annoy or insult you more than you thought possible. Don't limit it to men either, women can be obnoxious too. You will develop your own coping mechanisms. It is also important to realize that you probably will have some habits or mannerisms that will drive the other person equally insane.

yes exactly.
"kalli, be the best pilot you can be, who happens to be a girl" -Joe White
 
DrDeke
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 17):
One woman friend of mine flew for (had seniority #1) at a commuter airline in SoCal. She said she had a female first officer one month and several times they'd see businessmen walk across the ramp toward the airplane, see two women in the cockpit and turn around, go back and wait for the next plane. After the first couple of times it amused them to make themselves as conspicuous as possible before the flight. See how many MCPs they could weed out.

Man, I need to meet some women like this. They sound almost as stubborn as I am .

-DrDeke

(Edit: Stubborn in a good way, I mean.)

[Edited 2006-11-17 20:26:47]
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 17):
If you like flying, press on with it. You will not be happy doing anything else and I don't think there is a job out there that is really any more friendly to women.

Indeed. It's not just flying My wife is a rather senior executive at an investment bank (think the movie "Wall Street"). Every time some moron guy gets promoted ahead of her she knows the thing dangling between his legs has helped the whole process along. But she doesn't get mad. She knows after a while he'll have trouble performing at the level required and she will just be the turtle to his hare. I've asked if she's pissed off that she has to work harder and she says it's just something she accepts. If that's what it takes, she will work harder and better than the guys. At least when she succeeds she knows she worked for it instead of just sucking up.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 17):
One woman friend of mine flew for (had seniority #1) at a commuter airline in SoCal. She said she had a female first officer one month and several times they'd see businessmen walk across the ramp toward the airplane, see two women in the cockpit and turn around, go back and wait for the next plane. After the first couple of times it amused them to make themselves as conspicuous as possible before the flight. See how many MCPs they could weed out.

Hilarious. Maybe I'm young but it amazes me some people actually think like that. If they used logic they would figure out that the airline and the FAA probably wouldn't let them fly if they weren't capable.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
runway777
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:30 am

exactly. hence it being funny. lol
"kalli, be the best pilot you can be, who happens to be a girl" -Joe White
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 16):
Considering his mom's profession, he replied "No way......thats a girls job!!"

Oh, the irony!  Silly

Quoting Lucky42 (Reply 14):
with 300 hrs No turbine time embry riddle grad.

Hmmm, interesting, now that I think of it, I'm halfway to my ERAU diploma, I think my next step after that should be a sex change before I turn in any applications  Big grin

Nah, I guess I'll be too broke after graduation for the surgery....  headache 
 
jwenting
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:34 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 7):
It was common in many industries during the '80s & '90s and had NOTHING to do with "Equal Oppoortunity" and everything to do with "Affirmative Action". This was a concept to ensure that women, minorities, handicapped etc were properly represented in the workplace.

Where "properly" meant some random number completely unrelated to the actual number of candidates from those "minority" groups available (even in theory) for the function.

Whether you call it "equal opportunities", "affirmative action", or "positive discrimination" (the European term) it is simply wrong.

My father ran a large company (several thousand employees). He was sued for not hiring enough blacks in high level posts.
Luckily the court had the common sense to accept the expert witnesses he brought with him who showed that he could not have hired any because the educational institutions the company relied on for those people hadn't had any black students in over a decade so there was simply noone out there to hire.
Other companies were less fortunate.

One police agency went as far as to hire blacks exclusively, even if there were none that met the job requirements. Applications from non-blacks were simply shredded on sight, not even responded to.

As a result of such rules you will indeed see more grudges against and suspicion about the skills of employees in the groups preferred by those rules.
And rightly so, as many of them will likely have been hired not (entirely) on merits but based on race or sex (especially in industries where the availabillity of members of those groups for jobs is less than the required number of hirees from those groups).
I wish I were flying
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:31 am

Haven't had a woman pilot to date, but I know a few 'aspiring' and have no problems with them at all.
 
speedracer1407
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:01 pm

On a recent flight as a passenger on a 737, our captain was a woman of particularly petit stature.

My mom, who is similarly petit, has a hard time finding a comfortable car to drive; as a result, she's driven VWs for 10 years because they're some of the only cars with short enough seat bottoms and adjustable enough seats to fit her comfortably.

Thus, I wonder if commercial airliner seats are designed to accomidate people (man or woman) who are very short, like around 5 feet. This may be a silly question, but then again, auto manufacturers avoid alienating anyone who might otherwise buy their cars. Commercial airliners are not designed with the same mission. Is there a height limit under which a pilot simply cannot fly operate the controls effectively?
Dassault Mercure: the plane that has Boeing and Airbus shaking in their boots.
 
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freakydeaky
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:36 pm

Well, I don't think of myself as a "female pilot" - I think of myself as a "pilot." When I began flying, I did it because it was the only thing in the world that I wanted to do. I was obsessed. The fact that I was female and was getting into a "man's" world never once occurred to me. My first flight instructor tried to get me to quit - I simply moved on to another airport - I would not be deterred - nor am I now.

I have found that if someone has a problem with my gender - they also have a problem with everything else in their life (note - it's their problem not mine).

As you get older and you begin to have an understanding of people - you will see that you can't generalize people. There are good pilots and there are bad pilots of both genders - the same in all areas of life.

You must do what you have a passion for and all the little details will work themselves out.
"Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could."
 
aogdesk
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting FreakyDeaky (Reply 27):
I have found that if someone has a problem with my gender - they also have a problem with everything else in their life (note - it's their problem not mine).

As you get older and you begin to have an understanding of people - you will see that you can't generalize people. There are good pilots and there are bad pilots of both genders - the same in all areas of life.

You must do what you have a passion for and all the little details will work themselves out.

Nominated for Quote of the Day
 
charlienorth
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:02 am

Embarassing story..I answered the phone at the maintenance offic,a female voice informed me she wasn't comfortable with the forward flight attendant jumpseat on MEL,being the turd that I can be I told her she had no right of refusal and she would need to ask the captain to refuse it...she than told me she was the captain..DOH!...luckily she was decent about it,no doubt not the first time she encountered that!
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:28 pm

Quoting Lucky42 (Reply 14):
Quoting Lowrider (Reply 1):
United was probably the worst offender, but not the only one

You are absolutely correct about that. I know one female United hired into a DC-10 FE slot with 300 hrs No turbine time embry riddle grad. But my cousin was an USCG academy grad with 3000 hrs half of that command time in the C130 out of Kodiak Alaska in rough weather flying and United didn't give him the time of day. So I think this affirmative action while well intentioned does a disservice to minorities and women because everyone including myself look and say UMM I wonder how many hours he or she has because they will be looked at as substandard. Whether it is right or not is not the point. I know plenty of black and women pilots who are fantastic and have a butt load of experience but this affirmative action crap makes people look at them funny and they are every bit as qualified as anyone else when you lower the standards for whatever reason you hurt the whole cause...I am sure I will get flamed for this anyway but this is how I feel...If you have the time fine but no lowering of standards for ANYONE period!

Very well put...
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:58 pm

Quoting Lucky42 (Reply 14):
ECTED TEXT _
User currently offlineLucky42

Well put! And welcome to my RU list.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
newagebird
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:51 am

Havent got any problem with women flying around, however at my training school, most of the girls get a lot of preferential treatment jsut because they're girls.
All the instructors melt when the girls are around but when its us dudes, they couldnt give a damn about us. the thing that irks me is when they get an opportunity based on who they are instead of how much experience they have.

newagebird
 
charlienorth
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting Newagebird (Reply 32):
All the instructors melt when the girls are around

Just like non-av  Wink
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
runway777
Topic Author
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:12 am

the thing is, I dont like it when someone treats me different because of my sex. I let people know that, quite obviously. I want to be treated equal to everyone else, and my instructers dont treat me any differently. Infact, they ask me a lot of questions, and the reason is they want me to prove to the other guys in Ground School that i know as much as they do, or at least I know quite a bit.

-kalli
"kalli, be the best pilot you can be, who happens to be a girl" -Joe White
 
airtran737
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:10 am

I have no problem with women pilots, especially the hot ones. If you're a good stick, and can shoot a minimums approach with a crosswind at night in the rain, then I don't care if you're a man or woman.

As far as a bias for women pilots goes. I fully believe that there is a certain number that has to be met. I know a girl who flew for Colgan on the Slob who had less than a 1000 hours of PIC time who has recently completed 737 training at CO. No male could pull that one off. Being a woman is an advantage in the industry, and a minority woman is even more. Thats the breaks, what can you do? Airline hiring is so finicky. YX has a 717 FO who is all of 23 years old. He came from Skyway, where he never sat in the left seat. He knocked his interview out of the park, and got hired. He's a good pilot, but very young. You never know how the industry works. BTW, when his class drew for seniority, he pulled number in his class.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
Lucky42
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting Runway777 (Reply 34):
I dont like it when someone treats me different because of my sex.

I don't like it when someone treats me different because of my lack of sex...LOL....Seriously I think women like aogdesk will have it harder than women on the pilot end...You are really seeing more and more female airline pilots but you really see very few female mechanics. If I had a choice I would have rather been a pilot but medical issues prevent me from making a career of it. I hope you go into it for the love of it and not the prosepect of a high dollar airline capt career because those days are coming to an end anyway...
 
Lucky42
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:20 am

RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 16):
A few years ago, I had a guy (captain) look me in the eye and say "I can't figure out why a woman would want to do a man's job".....didn't quite know how to respond to that.

Sorry Aog I thought by this post you were female...but your profile says male. Let us know please......
 
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BreninTW
Posts: 1701
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:31 pm

RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:35 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 35):
BTW, when his class drew for seniority, he pulled number in his class

I'm a little lost with this -- does someone care to explain to me in layman's terms what it means please?

Thanks, Bren
 
runway777
Topic Author
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:34 am

RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:15 pm

What do you want to know? what seniority means?? sorry i dont get what your asking
"kalli, be the best pilot you can be, who happens to be a girl" -Joe White
 
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BreninTW
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Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:31 pm

RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:32 pm

Quoting Runway777 (Reply 39):
What do you want to know

Sorry -- I should have been clearer. I want to know what "he pulled number in his class" means.

I'm also a little confused what is meant by "when his class drew for seniority."

I've got a rather fuzzy understanding of what "seniority" means in general (the more senior you are, the more clout you have in terms of scheduling etc) -- but the other concepts have me awash.

Thanks
 
iairallie
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RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:21 pm

I'm female and it really pisses me off when companies lower standards to boost their minority counts. I would be really angry if I were a female who got hired meeting all the same criteria as the guys but have some of them assume because of their airlines stupid affirmative action polices that it's likely I was less qualified.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
SlamClick
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Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:23 pm

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 40):
I want to know what "he pulled number in his class" means.

Me too.

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 40):
"when his class drew for seniority."

Every airline I've ever heard of in the US assigns seniority numbers within a class by date of birth. Is there some other system in use?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
iairallie
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:58 pm

Several systems
1. by birthday
2. numerical order by SSN
3. by random draw
4. by class performance
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
airtran737
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Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: Sexist Opinions?

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:18 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 42):
Every airline I've ever heard of in the US assigns seniority numbers within a class by date of birth. Is there some other system in use?

At Midwest you basically draw a number out of a hat.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
runway777
Topic Author
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:34 am

RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 41):
I'm female and it really pisses me off when companies lower standards to boost their minority counts. I would be really angry if I were a female who got hired meeting all the same criteria as the guys but have some of them assume because of their airlines stupid affirmative action polices that it's likely I was less qualified.

i agree 100%
"kalli, be the best pilot you can be, who happens to be a girl" -Joe White
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting Runway777 (Reply 8):
thanks guys.
lots of pilots have said some rude things to me, but i want this real bad. So i will do it!

That's what I like to hear! I have a female college mate who I lost track of for 12 years. She got a degree in ceramic engineering, while I got a degree in mechanical engineering. She was always passionate in a subdued way while in college.

In those 12 years, she and I did the same thing by moving into IT for a career. Eerily, our careers both took us into databasing of two different kinds. Now, I'm 35 and she's 33, and our reunion has only highlighted a few things we both believed to be true. I hope they help you.

(1) Men have a fire in the belly that very few women ever have, and even fewer understand. It's part of what makes a man a man. But passion is a must for anybody, male or female, who wants a professional career. If you don't care, not only will you not achieve, but those who have passion will actively refuse your company. I despise coworkers who just don't care, and now that I manage others, a lack of passion will put you on a very short leash.

(2) Professional women have advantages a man does not; they suffer disadvantages a man does not. On the plus side, corporations fall all over themselves for competent professional women, *especially* in technical roles. We may debate the reasons, but only blind people pretend it's not true. On the minus side, technical fields are dominated by men. And when I say "dominated" I mean vastly so. This leads me to the third and fourth point. Please keep reading.

(3) Women must learn how to be a man in a man's world. The most successful women I've worked with make men comfortable. How? They have tough skin. They can argue their points passionately but without being emotional. They can take criticism, often severe criticism, and never take it personally. They even speak in a way that carries authority. They carry a cocksure confidence that they are right, and they win the loyalty of their male coworkers who don't look at them any differently because they're a woman.

(4) Women must be better than men. In the past 30 years, women have been told that men will just give them what they have traditionally dominated. This is a lie and you must never forget this. Being as good as a man will not help; you must be better than a man! You must work harder, and achieve MORE. I'm not justifying this sad reality; I'm merely pointing it out.

BE PREPARED. Men will say all manner of nasty things to you and about you. They'll use terms like "bitch" and "ball breaker" just because you're tough. Be even tougher when they do. Since you can't please everybody, you'll win fans while you alienate those men you can't win over anyway.

My friend tells some incredible tales from the workplace. Guys cussing at her. She's been hit on more times than she has fingers -- a couple of times by her superiors. Two weeks ago she was blindsided by repeated marriage requests from an Indian coworker.

Know what? A month ago she was asked to move into a management position at her present employer. This move is an important step for her, one that we discussed at length. She was asked to take this position by men, in positions of authority, who had worked with her previously. She did all that I outlined above. She's phenomenally productive; she's expert in her field; and she's earned her opportunities.

One more story: At a major client I served, I worked with and mentored a female coworker. I tell you the truth: this woman is at the very top of my list for preferred coworkers. If you give me one choice, I'm taking her.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 11):
For me, I see through gender differences

If what you mean is, "I can see when men hold women back" then I have no problem with this statement. If you mean, "I ignore the differences between men and women" then I have two reactions. First, baloney. Second, that's unwise. Only a fool pretends there aren't differences, but the discerner builds camaraderie and fosters productivity despite any tensions created by difference.

To our thread starter, I say again: always be mindful of your environment. You cannot afford to pretend that gender differences don't exist, and that they don't affect you as a woman or a professional.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 19782
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:57 am

Right on ContnlEliteCMH. I like this especially:

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 46):
(3) Women must learn how to be a man in a man's world. The most successful women I've worked with make men comfortable. How? They have tough skin. They can argue their points passionately but without being emotional. They can take criticism, often severe criticism, and never take it personally. They even speak in a way that carries authority. They carry a cocksure confidence that they are right, and they win the loyalty of their male coworkers who don't look at them any differently because they're a woman.

As I mentioned further up, my wife is a pretty senior executive. She HATES when girls who work for her get emotional about work, for example when they are slighted or when she has to tell them they are doing poorly. It does them a huge disservice and she is put in an uncomfortable position. I'm reminded of Tom Hanks in "A League of Their Won" saying "There's no crying in baseball!"

Succesful women deal with the cussing, the petty slights, the "old boys club" and all the rest and still come out ahead. There will always be men (and women) who resent them, but those guys are probably a-holes in other ways as well.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:01 am

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 46):

That was a really good post. Lot of substance, good presentation.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1383
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

RE: Sexist Opinions?

Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 47):
She HATES when girls who work for her get emotional about work, for example when they are slighted or when she has to tell them they are doing poorly. It does them a huge disservice and she is put in an uncomfortable position.

It's doubly uncomfortable for a man. We just don't deal well with this kind of emotion in ourselves; we perfectly abhor it in the workplace where to display even a hint damages (rightly or wrongly) our reputation. "Stiff upper lip" isn't just a phrase for the British. It describes all male-dominated working environments.

One more bit of advice for our aspiring young lady: if you have problems, don't be quick to drag HR into the mix. Involving HR is like pulling a gun. It forces a lethal confrontation, and unless you have overwhelming evidence or everybody just hates the boss, you're going to lose.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!

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