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3DPlanes
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GenFam Course Questions

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:53 am

Greetings great and mighty font of knowledge that is Tech Ops!  biggrin 

I'm trying to track down companies/schools/publishers/etc. that offer GenFam training. Here's what I know:

1) Alteon (an arm of Boeing) offers both on-site (they come to you for $2400/day plus per diem) or you-travel ($785/seat) training. They also have online training at $500/person.

2) AeroEd publishes books ($135) and has an online test ($400 extra) that gives you a certificate. (Do these really -count-?)

3) Boeing doesn't give out (or give permission to use) their info (AFM, AMM, drawings, etc.) unless you own an airplane. I might be able to license some of their stuff, but given that I'd be competing with Alteon, that's probably a non-starter.

Basically, I'm looking at options for a GenFam class (or classes) but I'm not sure what the market is, or what the ramifications of having to use (or recreate) Boeing/Airbus drawings and diagrams are...

What I don't know:

1) Does Alteon have an actual airframe as part of the training? Training aids? Just slides and handouts?

2) Does AeroEd pay Boeing for their drawings? They look VERY similar.

3) What's out there for Airbus?

4) Do folks (A&P types) take classes to help get hired? Kinda like a type-rating ahead of time.

5) Like a pilot license, does anybody care -where- you got it?

Thanks for any info you guys with real-world experience can provide!  thumbsup 
"Simplicate and add lightness." - Ed Heinemann
 
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fr8mech
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting 3DPlanes (Thread starter):
4) Do folks (A&P types) take classes to help get hired? Kinda like a type-rating ahead of time.

No. Most airlines will send you to their Gen/Fam, whether in-house or contracted. Though previous training MAY help you get hired, I'd be looking at experience.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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HAWK21M
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:36 pm

I've Attended ALTEON training.The Material is very good & so are the Instructors.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
amtrosie
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:29 pm

I have done training with Alteon, now that I work for a corporate operator.
However, when with the airlines, the airlines provide the training through their training programs or they might send you to a Boeing vender for the training. The airlines are very reticent to send some one to Boeing (and usually only for a new airframe to them), so will have their tech instructors go through the training a couple of times until they can bring that in-house and do it for far less money.

It has been my experience that even the owner/operator of a single Boeing aircraft has difficulty getting support from Boeing unless they have purchased that airframe directly from the manufacturer.

As for previous training, A prospective employer will be VERY interested in previous training and may play heavily in a hiring descision. A 121 (or 135) operator will definately use your previous training to their benefit because that will be a qualification they will submit to the FAA as evidence of continueing education requirement for them. Part 91 operators are not required by the FAA to have training, so the individual operator will train when convenient, if at all.

Based on your profile, It suprises me that you are unaware that there is NO type rating equivelent for A&P's. This is not even a thought on the regulatory horizon. Which is something I feel strongly about....... that's another subject. The only requirerment employers want is the A&P ticket, and only because they must, at that.

Getting back to your original question, the cost of obtaining beneficial training on your own is prohibitive and not likely to occur. The other issue, due to current events, is that you are seeking the training for legitimate purposes. In other words, who is your employer?
 
3DPlanes
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 3):
Based on your profile, It surprises me that you are unaware that there is NO type rating equivalent for A&P's.

Sorry, I worded that poorly. I was trying to make a comparison to pilots getting a type rating on an A/C they hope to fly - to get a better chance of getting hired.

So, while no type rating is required (yet - see below) for A&Ps, I can see where a youngster with experience only in GA, might want to take a Level 1 course (if they could afford it - say $600ish + travel for 40 hours/5 days) to improve their chances of getting on with an airline or MRO.

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 3):
This is not even a thought on the regulatory horizon.

Uh, don't be so sure... There's a storm brewing about further revisions to the new 145 training requirements... It could be BIG trouble if they push it down to GA.

Quote: Under the proposal, the FAA would like to create a "type-rating" system. Peri says the preamble to the proposal specifically says "a Boeing 757 is not like a Boeing 737" and a station rated for one is not necessarily rated for the other. The fear is the FAA will take that to the extreme and require type-ratings for different models of GA aircraft -- a repair station working on Cessna 170 series would need ratings for the 170, 172, 175 and 177.

Link
"Simplicate and add lightness." - Ed Heinemann
 
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777wt
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:44 am

Quoting 3DPlanes (Reply 4):
So, while no type rating is required (yet - see below) for A&Ps, I can see where a youngster with experience only in GA, might want to take a Level 1 course (if they could afford it - say $600ish + travel for 40 hours/5 days) to improve their chances of getting on with an airline or MRO.

After I got my A&P, my first job was with a airline!
 
amtrosie
Posts: 273
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting 3DPlanes (Reply 4):
So, while no type rating is required (yet - see below) for A&Ps, I can see where a youngster with experience only in GA, might want to take a Level 1 course (if they could afford it - say $600ish + travel for 40 hours/5 days) to improve their chances of getting on with an airline or MRO.

Oh, that it were that cheap!!! It has been a few years since I have been to any schools, but the last refrersher I went to cost almost $3000.00 (USD). I am sure that the cost has esculated significantly. I know a type rating(for a pilot) on a Gulfstream is running from $25,000 upwards of 40K. While training for a technician will not reach that high, it will be, however quite significant.

Quoting 3DPlanes (Reply 4):
Uh, don't be so sure... There's a storm brewing about further revisions to the new 145 training requirements... It could be BIG trouble if they push it down to GA.

Interesting reading.... It however pertains to part 145 and their capability list, there is not a whisper about parts 91, 121, 135 operations and their technicians.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:07 pm

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 3):
It has been my experience that even the owner/operator of a single Boeing aircraft has difficulty getting support from Boeing unless they have purchased that airframe directly from the manufacturer

Thats very true.Also noticed that Trainers from "Boeing" & "Alteon" were paid differently,even though the job was the same.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
3DPlanes
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:47 pm

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 6):
Oh, that it were that cheap!!!

So, what would the market be for a $650, 40-hour, Level 1 GenFam on say a 737 or 767 be?

No students, since its not from Boeing or Alteon?
Some students just because its there and cheap?
Too many students to handle?

On their website, Alteon lists "per seat" courses for the 747 and BBJ (iirc) at $785 per, so things may be getting less expensive.

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 6):
It however pertains to part 145 and their capability list, there is not a whisper about parts 91, 121, 135 operations and their technicians.

Interesting that, isn't it? Perhaps there are some concerns about the 145s? And again, while type-ratings are not required, I've also heard it that insurance requirements and/or client demands may drive training requirements in order to get or keep a contract.
"Simplicate and add lightness." - Ed Heinemann
 
amtrosie
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:24 pm

3D,

I'll try to find some accurate costs for you. As for the 40 hour thing... there is no such thing for Gen/Fam's. They will usually run a minimum of 3-4 weeks, then your in-depth powerplant and avionics will run another 10-12 days a piece. These airframes are getting seriously inter-dependant, thus making the course more demanding and lengthy. The number of students will be limited, but other than that I have no other information right now.

As for the training thing.... The reason why the Feds are focusing on 145 outfits are because it is not necesary to have a Airframe or Powerplant to work there. All sign-offs are done under the repair certificate. It has been my experience ( and I have quite a bit in 145's) that the license we hold is good for their PR crap and NOTHING ELSE!!! You will not ever use it unless you are the individual signing off the logbook for the completed check, and that is done by the chief inspector. Various 121 operators are required to ensure that all maintainers of their aircraft have "an acceptable level of training". That is found in the operators GMM. My requirment for anyone working my airplane is that they have documented experience on the aircraft and they have been through a Gen?Fam class. This at least gives me a basis for my expectations for the mechanics on my airplane.

Again, I'll look up the $ numbers for training, but it will not be until next week, then I will PM them.
 
avt007
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:32 pm

Question for the USA folks here- does the FAA regulate what constitutes "acceptable training"? Transport Canada does regulate this, in fact you need to be an "ATO", "Approved Training Organization" , the course content and materials have to be approved, and they will audit your training in the classroom. Of course part of the ATO process is ensuring the instructors meet certain criteria as well. I have been involved recently in training, and it has been a real eye opener. The amount of work behind the scenes is HUGE. It's not an easy job. So how is the life of a trainer in the States?
 
3DPlanes
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 9):
As for the 40 hour thing... there is no such thing for Gen/Fam's

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but if I understand the ATA Spec 104 correctly, there are three levels of Gen Fam - 1, 2 and 3. Then again, I haven't "Been there, done that, got the shirt."

If I've got it right, Level 1 is an overview of the aircraft along with a "basic understanding of the systems." Level 2 is line-level servicing and maintenance, and Level 3 is the in-depth, highly technical stuff - like rigging and such...

I think that Alteon offers Level 1 in 40 hours, and Level 2 in 80. Level 3 hours depend on the subject. I do have a metal-bending coworker who has been through Delta's school - three weeks plus homework - but he says it was VERY in depth, much more than a "basic understanding."

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 9):
The reason why the Feds are focusing on 145 outfits are because it is not necesary to have a Airframe or Powerplant to work there.

Ah yes... "drill and fill" comes to mind.

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 10):
Does the FAA regulate what constitutes "acceptable training"?

The FAA approves the curriculum/facilities for Part 147 training schools, as well as auditing them on a "hello, show us your records" basis. But Part 147 is for A&Ps. To my knowledge, the 121 operators and 145 shops must have an approved training plan, but how closely they're audited, I can't say. I don't think FAA types sit in on classes any of them, but I could be wrong.
"Simplicate and add lightness." - Ed Heinemann
 
avt007
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:21 am

Thanks 3Dplanes. A level 3 is like this; what the system is, what it does, where the components are, how they basically work (no need for detailed internal descriptions) and it interfaces with the rest of the aircraft. A typical Canadian course on a regional aircraft is 4 weeks (160 hours approx) of classrom, with a 5 % hands on section. I have heard that some US operators break up the 4 weeks into modules. It's an interesting idea, probably has it's pros and cons. I know 4 weeks of straight classrom is hard, and if you are on a big course like a 340 or 777 you can be in the class for up to 9 nine weeks.
Now that's tough.
 
avioniker
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:38 am

Just to help confuse;

The Alteon 737NG course is 10.5 weeks and covers all systems and rigging basics but virtually no structures.
They offer other supplemental courses to cover systems more in depth like pneumatics, door and flight control rigging, and troubleshooting. These are over and above the gen fam, basic qualification courses.

A large(est) American Airline had them pare it down to 6.5 weeks and included only their specific systems for their instructors and engineers. The engineers only attended the parts of the course pertaining to their areas of expertise.
The instructors sat through all 6+ weeks and then had to cut it again to one week for Basic Airframe & Systems and one week for Avionics.
That's what the line/base maintenance people get to qualify them to work and get the rest of the training on the airframe via OJT. Somehow it seems to work.

When I taught gen fam and systems courses for Brand X we billed at $1000 per student per week to other companies without their own internal instructor expertise.

At my current company (which is not part anything [147, 145, 121, 135, etc] certified) my training is sold for $2145 per student per week.

When I worked independantly I billed at $750 to $1250 per depending on class size and how friendly I was with the customer.

Cost is totally subjective but the training is required so get it where you can and make sure it's worth putting in your resume.

Just remember: you can't stop at FL350 to get out and look for what just went "thump".

 Smile
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
3DPlanes
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:39 pm

Excellent post Avioniker! Much useful info...

Just to continue adding to the confusion, here is a link to a 3-day, $785, Gen Fam on the 737 in Seattle.

Alteon Per Seat Course

Forgoing the airlines, who I have gathered will do their own training (either in house, or contracted), would a 3-day course be helpful to a "just-passed-my-O&P" mech? Or how about "drill and fill" types at 145s?

The prices quoted are very much in line with the going rates. And the times are as well, but I'd expect the demand (outside the 121s) for a 10 week course to be quite low, not to mention too costly for most.

That's why I'm asking about the 3-5 day courses...
"Simplicate and add lightness." - Ed Heinemann
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:29 pm

Here in Europe a level 3 type course is a must if you want to work under EASA rules. A full EASA Part 66 B1 level 3 type course takes 7 weeks plus two weeks OJT.
Only then the respective aviation authority will enter this aircraft type into your licence.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Dalmd88
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RE: GenFam Course Questions

Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:12 pm

At DL I don't think having a GenFam course would help much in getting hired. I don't think DL in the past has put much importance on specific aircraft experience or training for hiring qual. I had a bunch of Turboprop time, but many of the guys I work with were hired straight out of a&p school.

I think we will be hiring again on a large scale sometime in 2007. Right now they are working through the recall list for ATL. It is looking like they are going to have more openings than mechanics for ATL. Also there are three new stations opening;SAV,CHS,BWI. That will create openings as well as other stations losing guys to the ATL recall.

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