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kaddyuk
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Compressor Washing

Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:55 pm

Does your airline carry out Compressor Washing? How Frequently and on What Types?

Personally its a job I hate but as I understand, its very effective on the CFM-56's
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Compressor Washing

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:51 pm

We do it during Scheduled B check on the JT8Ds & Unscheduled Once in two months or when its observed that there is a parameter shift on the JT8Ds & RB211-535s.
Frequency reduces in Rainy season.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
TheJoe
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RE: Compressor Washing

Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:00 pm

Yes, the airline I work for carry out compressor washes on quite a regular basis. I would say that you could expect to see one per night down at the hanger. At the airport I work at, it's mainly 737-800's and 400's. We operate A330's, 767's and 747's as well but I have not personally performed washes on them myself. They get done elsewhere.

It's not that bad is it? I enjoy the job! It's much better than dealing with a U/S toilet or dump valve...  yuck 
 
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jetmech
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RE: Compressor Washing

Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:33 pm

Quoting TheJoe (Reply 2):
It's not that bad is it?

I agree that it wasn't really a bad job at all. It did take a bit of time to organise the wash rig, and you had to play around with the MEC on CF6's to fully open the VSV's, but aside from that there was nothing too stressful. I seem to remember that we did a lot more compressor washes on CF6's compared with the RB211's and JT9D's; not sure why  Confused .

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Compressor Washing

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting JetMech (Reply 3):
I seem to remember that we did a lot more compressor washes on CF6's

I've yet to wash a CF6... I've done the CFM56-5B and Trent 556. I'm not even sure if our juniper rig will work with the CF6...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Compressor Washing

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:33 pm

I used to do them regularly on B737-200 JT8D.
They were a pain in the neck.
We had to remove the cooling air ducts to the generator to stop wash fluid getting in there. We didn't do it at first, but then had a rash of generator failures as the water washed out the grease!
At first we used demin water plus kerosene, but then I had an engine fire as someone put too much kerosene in the mix, so we washed with only water. I remember that the special water was expensive, but it was a good idea as we operated out in the desert.
 
Valcory
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RE: Compressor Washing

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Thread starter):
Personally its a job I hate but as I understand, its very effective on the CFM-56's

Personally i love it i am the one in the cockpit dry motoring the engine
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Compressor Washing

Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 5):
so we washed with only water. I remember that the special water was expensive, but it was a good idea as we operated out in the desert.

I belive we just use regular tap water...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Compressor Washing

Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:03 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 7):
I belive we just use regular tap water

The trouble with tap water is that it has minerals in it that can stick to the blades. We used demineralised water, the same water that was used in water injected engines. It was purer than distilled water.
 
TheJoe
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RE: Compressor Washing

Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:12 pm

Quoting JetMech (Reply 3):
It did take a bit of time to organise the wash rig, and you had to play around with the MEC on CF6's to fully open the VSV's, but aside from that there was nothing too stressful.

Yeah, on the CFM56-7 we have to lock out the leading edges so that they can not extend. When the cowls are open there is very little clearence between the engine and leading edge structure. If the flaps extended there would be a large crunch and a lot of explaining to do. That would be quite embarrasing!

 boggled 

Other than that, we have to disconnect some bleed air sense lines and IIRC I think the compressor discharge pressure sense lines comes off the Electronic Engine Control unit. Can't remember the technical name for it, it's been a while since I've done one. Had a few beers since then!  cheeky 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Compressor Washing

Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:01 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 5):
At first we used demin water plus kerosene, but then I had an engine fire as someone put too much kerosene in the mix, so we washed with only water.

What did occur.

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 8):
We used demineralised water, the same water that was used in water injected engines. It was purer than distilled water.

De-Mineralised water here too.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
VC-10
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RE: Compressor Washing

Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:54 pm

I used to do them on CF6-50's when the EGT margin started to reduce.

A DC-10 coke wash is done at Flight Idle with a run certified engineer in the cockpit.

When the CF6 is new or the compressor is overhauled the inside if the casing is sprayed with aluminum to reduce the rotor blade tip clearences to improve efficiency. With centrifugal force the comp blades would stretch and cut into the Al layer (by design) to reduce the tip clearence. The side effect is that the blades get covered with Al splatter.

To remove the splatter at a predetermined interval after fitment a coke wash would be carried out.

Further washes are carried out whenever the EGT start to trend to the upper end of the limit.

Hot water washes are carried out on CFM56's when engine start to look like it would soon become EGT limited.

I have also done water washes on JT9's

(From https://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/111185 )
 
KELPkid
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RE: Compressor Washing

Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:15 am

Okay guys,

the rest of us have to ask: what exactly is a "compressor wash?". I'm assuming it means somehow cleaning the blades in the compressor section of a turbine powerplant...Is this similar to what the USAF uses mil-spec peach pits and/or pecan shells for?

Thanks!
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
VC-10
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RE: Compressor Washing

Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:30 am

KEL, see para three of my post above and the link to the other thread I provided. Yes it is similar to what you describe.
 
dairbus
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RE: Compressor Washing

Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:34 am

Here is one of my favorite photos in the A.net database. According to the caption, they are performing a "coke wash" on an engine.



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Colin T. Ebert

"I love mankind. It's people I can't stand." - Charles Shultz
 
Valcory
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RE: Compressor Washing

Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:22 pm

We use like a soap substance and that stuff is hard to rinse there is always suds in the tale section we also do engine when we are done.They were a few instances of smelling soap when the packs were turned on.
 
TheJoe
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RE: Compressor Washing

Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting Valcory (Reply 15):
They were a few instances of smelling soap when the packs were turned on.

Yeah, part of the job for us is a 20 - 30 min idle engine run while performing various functional checks of the A/C system to make sure that everything has been flushed out of the bleed air system!
 
Dougloid
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:11 am

I did quite a number of PT6 compressor washes and the occasional JT15D-it's usually for N1 recovery. There's a special soap that's used, and the exhaust nozzles look like rabid dogs foaming at the mouth. It smells more like camphor than anything else, and it's mixed with deionized water.

It works quite well for recovering performance, particularly if the aircraft goes in and out of a lot of urban areas with a lot of air pollution.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Valcory
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting TheJoe (Reply 16):
Yeah, part of the job for us is a 20 - 30 min idle engine run while performing various functional checks of the A/C system to make sure that everything has been flushed out of the bleed air system!

Yeah we do the same too part of the problem with the soap smell was due to not running the engine long enough and also not operating the pacs.Yeah i normally do a 20-30 minute idle run and run the packs i never had a problem but others do.
 
Valcory
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
There's a special soap that's used, and the exhaust nozzles look like rabid dogs foaming at the mouth.

Yeah probly the same soap we use,we had to cut back on the soap,to get rid of the water and foam out of the exhaust nozzle i usually pull a boroscope plug underneath.(it works pretty good P&W 2037) On some of the 757 the #1 start switch would not stay in ground you had to hold it there.It was no fun holding that switch for two minutes when dry motoring the engine.
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 8):
The trouble with tap water is that it has minerals in it that can stick to the blades. We used demineralised water, the same water that was used in water injected engines. It was purer than distilled water.

It must be de-min water... I wasn't too sure really as i've never topped the rig up, however thinking back to Gas Turbines i belive it is De-Min...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:52 pm

Quoting Valcory (Reply 19):
On some of the 757 the #1 start switch would not stay in ground you had to hold it there.It was no fun holding that switch for two minutes when dry motoring the engine.

Was it the Holding solenoid at Fault.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Valcory
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RE: Compressor Washing

Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
Was it the Holding solenoid at Fault.
regds
MEL

I change the control panel i also see switches where you had to push it in then rotate it and it would stay in ground.
 
TheJoe
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RE: Compressor Washing

Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting Valcory (Reply 18):
Yeah i normally do a 20-30 minute idle run and run the packs i never had a problem but others do.

For a while there we were having complaints about "funny smells" in the cabin after a wash. That's how the run became procedure. Seemed to fix things up!
 
UAL Bagsmasher
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RE: Compressor Washing

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:03 am

We do compressor washes on the CF34-3B1's on a time/cycle basis as well as for trends we see in the ITT, etc. We use a detergent solution mixed with water. When it's below freezing, we add isopropyl alcohol to the mix. We usually do two wash cycles followed by as many rinse cycles as necessary to remove the residual soap. Both the 10th stage and 14th stage bleed ports are blanked off during the wash process. If they are left connected, you can contaminate the A/C packs, ruin a bunch of transducers and a bunch of other things which will ruin your day. After the rinsing, we normally do a 10 minute dry-out run above 80% N1. I don't do them very often anymore since I am no longer on 3rd shift. It was always fun though to have an excuse to cruise around the airport at 0200 making a bunch of noise Wink
 
access-air
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RE: Compressor Washing

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:42 am

Did I hear at one time that Mechanics used to run crushed Walnut shells thru the engines at Air New England to clean the compressors on the Rolls Royce Darts on their FH-227s???

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
Dougloid
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RE: Compressor Washing

Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 25):
Did I hear at one time that Mechanics used to run crushed Walnut shells thru the engines at Air New England to clean the compressors on the Rolls Royce Darts on their FH-227s???

Access-Air

This is a little off the subject but we're all gearheads. A friend of mine worked for a short line railroad and they did a top end job on their EMD switcher which was a 6-567 (6 cylinders, 567 cid each). The job consisted of rebuilding the heads and putting in new pistons and liners.

Well, the rings wouldn't seat and the rings wouldn't seat and the rings wouldn't seat. So one day this guy shows up, he was a retired hogger from the Jersey Central and he says, "Hook up as much tonnage as you can get your hands on and then run it hard. At the same time you could have someone dump a five pound can of Bon Ami in the air inlet."

It worked pretty well. Of course I tried the Bon Ami on my lawnmower and it just fouled the plug. The ring sets from Hepolite that I used to sell back in the day for English Fords all came packed in jeweler's rouge, which is pretty close to Bon Ami.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
access-air
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RE: Compressor Washing

Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:58 am

Dougloid,

How does that relate to the Compressors of the RR Darts and the Walnut shells??

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 25):
Did I hear at one time that Mechanics used to run crushed Walnut shells thru the engines at Air New England to clean the compressors on the Rolls Royce Darts on their FH-227s

Walnut shell blasting is an approved cleaning process.Its knocks off the coke.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
KELPkid
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 27):
How does that relate to the Compressors of the RR Darts and the Walnut shells??

Just like the walnut shells, it's about intentionally introducing foreign objects/matter into an engine through it's intake for some sort of maintenance procedure  Smile In one case, a turboprop engine, in the other a two-stroke beast of a diesel engine.

BTW Dougloid, I wasn't aware that EMD made a 6 cylinder 567. Was this a really wimpy switcher like an SW1? Enquiring minds want to know  Wink
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
Dougloid
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 27):
Dougloid,

How does that relate to the Compressors of the RR Darts and the Walnut shells??

Access-Air

Your answer sir.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 26):
This is a little off the subject but we're all gearheads.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Dougloid
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 29):
BTW Dougloid, I wasn't aware that EMD made a 6 cylinder 567. Was this a really wimpy switcher like an SW1? Enquiring minds want to know

I do believe it was an SW1....but it has been a loooooooooooong time ago.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
KELPkid
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):
Your answer sir.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 26):
This is a little off the subject but we're all gearheads.

And speaking about indroducing foreign matter into engines, for the record, the GM 2.5 liter "Tech IV" Iron Duke doesn't like the remains of spark plug insulators as injested through the spark plug hole...live and learn  Wink [my first DIY tune-up]
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
Dougloid
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 32):
And speaking about indroducing foreign matter into engines, for the record, the GM 2.5 liter "Tech IV" Iron Duke doesn't like the remains of spark plug insulators as injested through the spark plug hole...live and learn [my first DIY tune-up]

Yessir...that there can cause some severe motor indigestion. In my case it was getting to tear down a VW Beetle engine that had a terrible rattly rasp and the guy alowed as how when he'd been putting on a new manifold he'd dropped a nut down the hole and figured he could just run it through and everything would be peachy keen.

You can always tell the real mechanics....even if they've been out of the trade for a long time because their back pocket always has a rag in it. When the Dragon Lady sends me to the kitchen for paper towels a lot of the time I stuff them in my back pocket...it is ia hard habit to break.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
A/c train
Posts: 674
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RE: Compressor Washing

Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:46 am

CF6 MEC's, take the rod and head off, conect the K9 kit and hey presto, VSV's fully open.
 
Molykote
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RE: Compressor Washing

Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:44 am



Quoting TheJoe (Reply 9):
Other than that, we have to disconnect some bleed air sense lines and IIRC I think the compressor discharge pressure sense lines comes off the Electronic Engine Control unit. Can't remember the technical name for it, it's been a while since I've done one. Had a few beers since then!

PS3 line?

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 12):
Okay guys,

the rest of us have to ask: what exactly is a "compressor wash?". I'm assuming it means somehow cleaning the blades in the compressor section of a turbine powerplant...Is this similar to what the USAF uses mil-spec peach pits and/or pecan shells for?

Thanks!

Correct.

Quoting Kaddyuk (Thread starter):
Personally its a job I hate but as I understand, its very effective on the CFM56's

Later CFM56 variants (/P models with "3D" airfoils) show significant margin/efficiency improvement after a wash. A compressor wash also helps higher time engines recover some stall margin.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
speedbird2263
Posts: 193
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RE: Compressor Washing

Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:03 am

G'day gents....I suppose my question now after reading the above thread is, Are there routine compressor washes for the APU compressor? Id imagine the larger the apu the more deposits.  scratchchin 
Straight'n Up 'N Fly Right Son
 
dakota123
Posts: 241
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RE: Compressor Washing

Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:47 pm

We do this regularly on stationary gas turbines (industrial and aero-derivative). Used to use a solvent-based cleaner mixed with DI water, now have to use water-based (citric acid?). Water-based isn't as effective, unfortunately. There is a definite benefit to doing so. If you chart engine output and fuel economy between washes, you see a saw-tooth pattern -- you never quite get back to 'new and clean' because the engine is wearing in non-recoverable ways, but definitely a huge improvement over not doing anything.


Mike
“And If I claim to be a wise man, well surely it means that I don’t know”
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Compressor Washing

Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:07 pm



Quoting Access-Air (Reply 25):
Did I hear at one time that Mechanics used to run crushed Walnut shells thru the engines at Air New England to clean the compressors on the Rolls Royce Darts on their FH-227s???

Indeed. Apparently, there's even a MIL spec for the shells;
Question About This Picture. (by Dl757md Oct 15 2006 in Tech Ops)?threadid=170354&searchid=170381&s=shells+F105#ID170381
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
Jawed
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RE: Compressor Washing

Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:34 am

Are you sure that's not the same thing? I don't think you can get more pure water than distilled water.

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 8):
We used demineralised water, the same water that was used in water injected engines. It was purer than distilled water.

 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Compressor Washing

Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:55 am



Quoting Jawed (Reply 39):
Are you sure that's not the same thing? I don't think you can get more pure water than distilled water.

Demineralised water is deprived of minerals
Distilled water is purified water.

The former is used as it does not risk the minerals in the water contaminating or reacting with the materials of the powerplant its used on.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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777wt
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RE: Compressor Washing

Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:19 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 40):
The former is used as it does not risk the minerals in the water contaminating or reacting with the materials of the powerplant its used on.

Or clogging up those many fine cooling holes on the turbine blades...
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Compressor Washing

Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:39 am



Quoting Jawed (Reply 39):
I don't think you can get more pure water than distilled water.

After distilled comes dionized. Even less little bits in it.

Tom.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Compressor Washing

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:16 am



Quoting 777WT (Reply 41):
Or clogging up those many fine cooling holes on the turbine blades...

what would the size of the particles be,unless you are including carbon & other pollutants.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:28 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 43):
what would the size of the particles be,unless you are including carbon & other pollutants

I Googled the heck out of this and couldn't really find a definitive answer. I can't believe that there is no standard for it, but I was coming back with anything from 5 to 700 nanometres.

But that's still pretty small. I expect that any problem would be more due to accretion than the size of any individual particle.
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3673
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:12 pm



Quoting Speedbird2263 (Reply 36):
Are there routine compressor washes for the APU compressor? Id imagine the larger the apu the more deposits.

we used to clean the Tristar APU regularly. It was a PT6 engine. There was a connector on the compressor casing and we connected a pressurised rig up.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:08 pm



Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 44):
I expect that any problem would be more due to accretion than the size of any individual particle.

Agreed. I've seen clogged turbine blades and it's an accumulation of small particles at the stagnation points inside the blade, not single large particles blocking an orifice.

Tom.
 
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sunrisevalley
Posts: 5392
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RE: Compressor Washing

Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:27 pm

I know first hand of a carrier who "washed" one engine of a 744. On the next trip that engine consumed 10% less fuel than each of the other three.
 
ex52tech
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:28 pm

RE: Compressor Washing

Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:27 am



Quoting Molykote (Reply 35):
PS3 line?

I can't speak for RR engines, but on the GE, and P&W, PS3 is discharge pressure from the N1 compressor. N2 compressor discharge pressure is refered to as PS4, PB4, or burner pressure. The line to the EEC would be the PS4, or burner pressure line.
I have only seen PS3 used for the pressure ratio bleed controller on a JT9 for operation of the tandem bleeds on the -7A,-7F,-7J, or the modulated bleed valve on the -7Q, or -7R4.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Compressor Washing

Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:22 am



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 47):
I know first hand of a carrier who "washed" one engine of a 744. On the next trip that engine consumed 10% less fuel than each of the other three.

those blades would have been real dirty to witness such improvements post cleaning.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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