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wrldwndrer
Topic Author
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:51 pm

Most Innovative?

Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:55 am

Just sitting here watching the snow come down outside my window, and the thought occured to me. What do you consider the greatest innovation in aviation since the 70's (seeing as how I was born in the 70's) ? In terms of impact on the whole field and the way we fly ?

Would it be the winglet ?
Would it be FADEC's ?
Would it be GPS ?
 
wing
Posts: 1366
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 9:10 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:18 pm

-Glass Cockpits
-FMS,
-EGPWS,
-TCAS,
-GPS,
-WX Radar.
And most important of all better coffee makers  Smile
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
sanjet
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:58 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:16 pm

Agree with Wing 100%

Also pilot training; CRM / Simulators have went a long way in my opinion and have made this industry far safer.
Will Fly For Food!
 
zanl188
Posts: 3789
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting Wrldwndrer (Thread starter):
Would it be the winglet ?
Would it be FADEC's ?
Would it be GPS ?



Quoting Wrldwndrer (Thread starter):
-Glass Cockpits
-FMS,
-EGPWS,
-TCAS,
-GPS,
-WX Radar.

All nice and certainly makes things safer... But the real impact of the last thirty years has been in materials particularly composites...
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SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:36 am

In no order, and without comment on the nature of their impact:
Appendix J to FAR Part 121
Women in the cockpit.
Twilight of the stews.
Dawn of the flight attendant.
Halon 1211
CRM
Frank Lorenzo
Bottled water

The rest of that stuff is just details.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Marquis
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:35 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:32 am

Add FBW to that list.
Riding the radials...
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting Marquis (Reply 5):
Add FBW to that list.

Flying with Bottled Water? Already covered.  Smile
 
N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 4):
Frank Lorenzo

Why Lorenzo? I thought that man was the son of Satin (according to people on A.Net)...
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting Marquis (Reply 5):
Add FBW to that list.

If you are referring to my list, no thank you.

FBW has had zero impact on my life and career. I push or pull and the instruments respond. What happens in between to cause it is nothing but details of more interest to an engineer than a crewmember. I don't even care if the airplane has a tail and wingtips. I'm flying the instrument panel to Miami. The rest of it is welcome to come along as long as they bring the passenger seats with them.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 7):
Why Lorenzo? I thought that man was the son of Satin

Okay, then:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 4):
without comment on the nature of their impact

So he could have been good or bad, I didn't say, but he certainly did reshape the landscape in air transportation.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
zanl188
Posts: 3789
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:10 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 8):
FBW has had zero impact on my life and career.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 8):
in air transportation

Too bad the thread is about what impact innovation has had on aviation not air transportation or your career. See below.

Quoting Wrldwndrer (Thread starter):
What do you consider the greatest innovation in aviation since the 70's (seeing as how I was born in the 70's) ? In terms of impact on the whole field and the way we fly ?
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Marquis
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:35 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 8):

If you are referring to my list, no thank you.

No worries, I didn't refer to your list.  sarcastic 
Riding the radials...
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 9):
Too bad the thread is about what impact innovation has had on aviation not air transportation or your career

Well pardon me! After I read this in the original post:

Quoting Wrldwndrer (Thread starter):
In terms of impact on the whole field

I offered some opinions based on what I've experienced. I don't think the o/p actually expected any one person to give the benchmark answer for the "whole field" but rather that we each contribute from our own knowledge or observations.

Part of my post was intended to be facetious, what was the intent of YOURS?

If you think it is "off topic" to the extent that it violates forum rules then I recommend that you use the "suggest deletion" button.

Meanwhile, I still maintain that Frank Lorenzo and Part 121 Appendix J have had effects more observable to most of us than either FBW or composite materials, both of which are behind the scenes and, at best, resulted in very incremental improvements in payload capabilities.

Appendix J is removing the alcoholics from the cockpit and, in the early years, more or less relegating them to the freight dogs which seem to be slower to implement its provisions, and the Frank Lorenzo-effect is still rippling around the world with economic impact on flight instructors, banner-tow pilots, cropdusters, corporate pilots, airline pilots, helicopter pilots, charter pilots, mechanics, dispatchers, flight attendants, rampers, aviation-related vendors and the purchases made and taxes paid by them and their families just for starters.

A couple of last points: While the original poster did ask about "the whole field" and he is probably going to get some wide-ranging responses, I would point out to YOU that the forum is called "airLINERS.net" and not "airplanes" or "aircraft" dot net. Further, from the description of the Tech/Ops forum:
"The more advanced forum for those of you who want to dig deeper into technical issues as well as airline management and operations. A forum for both professionals and knowledgeable amateurs." (underlining mine)

It has been my observation that posts pertaining to Cessnas and helicopters are equally welcome here alongside posts about airliners. About all we could ask is that posts be entertaining, informative or both.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:10 am

High bypass engines
Titanium
ceramics
TSA Just kidding  duck 
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
zanl188
Posts: 3789
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11):
I don't think the o/p actually expected any one person to give the benchmark answer for the "whole field"

Sure he did... That's why he said this....

Quoting Wrldwndrer (Thread starter):
In terms of impact on the whole field and the way we fly ?

Are you going to tell the o/p what he meant to say now?
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 13):
Sure he did...

Let me put it another way. Nobody who posts here is remotely qualified - you included - to give such an answer.

Do you really imagine that

Quoting Wrldwndrer (Thread starter):
the winglet

turned the helicopter world upside down?


It it your claim that

Quoting Wrldwndrer (Thread starter):
FADEC's

made airline stock a good investment?


Maybe

Quoting Wrldwndrer (Thread starter):
GPS ?

somehow prevents lost luggage.


Your answer was no more all-encompassing than mine were. We both posted from what little slice of the aviation world we can see.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 13):
Are you going to tell the o/p what he meant to say now?

You mean like you are doing?

If the o/p feels strongly one way or another he will likely say so. Meanwhile, don't forget that "suggest deletion button" 4th from the left on the button bar above this very post.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:41 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 8):
So he could have been good or bad, I didn't say, but he certainly did reshape the landscape in air transportation.

I see then, my apologies for not taking the "without comment" in. He certainly did have a huge impact on the airline industry...even if it was negative.

In that case, would you consider adding Carl Icahn to the list?
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 15):
would you consider adding Carl Icahn to the list?

Well not without first securing the permission of ZANL188!

No, not without more information I wouldn't. It is my understanding that some of Lorenzo's hatchetmen were later employed by the US Department of Transportation. Wider effect there.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
zanl188
Posts: 3789
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 14):
Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 13):
Sure he did...

Let me put it another way. Nobody who posts here is remotely qualified - you included - to give such an answer.

Do you really imagine that

Quoting Wrldwndrer (Thread starter):
the winglet


turned the helicopter world upside down?


It it your claim that

Quoting Wrldwndrer (Thread starter):
FADEC's


made airline stock a good investment?


Maybe

Quoting Wrldwndrer (Thread starter):
GPS ?


somehow prevents lost luggage.


Your answer was no more all-encompassing than mine were. We both posted from what little slice of the aviation world we can see.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 13):
Are you going to tell the o/p what he meant to say now?

You mean like you are doing?

If the o/p feels strongly one way or another he will likely say so. Meanwhile, don't forget that "suggest deletion button" 4th from the left on the button bar above this very post.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 16):
Well not without first securing the permission of ZANL188!

Well all I can say is that you have well and truly fallen off the banana truck on this one.

I quote the o/p directly and you say that I'm telling the o/p what he meant to say!?! That's completely laughable...

Come on Slam, may well be time to let some air out of that ego. It's getting the better of you.
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SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 17):

I still don't understand why you chose to pick this fight in the first place. It is entirely off topic and not the correct procedure.

If you think my post is off-topic "suggest deletion"

Suggest Deletion
Suggest Deletion
Suggest Deletion
Suggest Deletion

Or shut up.

I don't know how plain I can make it.
One more possible suggestion: Take you whining over to Civil/Av where it is better tolerated.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:50 am




Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 9):
Too bad the thread is about what impact innovation has had on aviation not air transportation or your career.

Does that mean none of us may explain how various innovations have impacted us (or not impacted us) personally?

I, for one, believe personal, objective points of view do a great job of helping us to understand the big picture.

One of the nicest things about Tech/Ops is that the regular contributors tend to be mature and respectful enough to keep the thread evolving, rather than stumbling into a round of bickering and fighting like a certain other forum....  Wink


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
redcordes
Posts: 244
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:28 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:08 am

High-bypass, high efficiency turbofans would seem to me by far to have had the greatest impact by keeping costs down by maybe 20% to 30% (?) As for the systems that ease the operation of the aircraft, the freight and most the passengers probably don't care.
"The only source of knowledge is experience." A. Einstein "Science w/o religion is lame. Religion w/o science is blind."
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:23 am




Quoting Wrldwndrer (Thread starter):
In terms of impact on the whole field and the way we fly ?

How about some of the advances in weather forecasting technology?

For example, LLWAS, Terminal Doppler Weather Radar, NEXRAD, DUATS, RVR measuring equipment, and understanding of microbursts.

Besides the immeasurable gains in efficiency, these technologies together have probably saved a great number of lives over the years...


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:34 am

In US commercial aviation:

Deregulation.

In US G.A.:

The stopping of production of light singles due to lawsuits and the law that undid this mess.(I dont know the exact law but I believe it happened in 1994?)

Worldwide:

The widebody aircraft?

I know everyone thinks innovative is "high tech gadgets". All the technical stuff will be eclipsed in a few years. Nothing really innovative here except for GPS, and thats not really needed for flight.

Dan in Jupiter
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 22):
(I dont know the exact law but I believe it happened in 1994?)

That would be the General Aviation Revitalization Act.
 
wrldwndrer
Topic Author
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:51 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 22):
I know everyone thinks innovative is "high tech gadgets". All the technical stuff will be eclipsed in a few years.

Well pointed out.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:42 pm

I think the development of ETOPS has impacted both the the manufacturerers (Airbus & Boeing) as well as the airlines. Trans-Atlantic routes on twins didn't start until the mid '80s and were pretty rare until the '90s. Now we have lots of Trans-Pacific routes operated by twin jets.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
One of the nicest things about Tech/Ops is that the regular contributors tend to be mature and respectful enough to keep the thread evolving, rather than stumbling into a round of bickering and fighting like a certain other forum....

That's funny. I find the opposite. It seems this is the forum where most of the silly arguments are started by the ''know-it-all" users.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
BAE146QT
Posts: 981
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:58 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:34 pm

Quoting TrijertsRMissed:
That's funny. I find the opposite. It seems this is the forum where most of the silly arguments are started by the ''know-it-all" users.

I'm having a little trouble drawing an inference from that - specifically the phrase "know-it-all". That's my fault not yours, but do you mean that the arguments are caused by;

1) People who DON'T know it all but who think they do, or;
2) People who DO know it all, (or a sizable proportion of whatever "it all" is) and know that they do?

If you mean 1), then I would tend to agree. I've seen at least two very bad cases of what appears to be Dunning-Kruger effect in this forum, (Yeah, you know who you are... or do you?)

If you mean 2), then the only thing I can say is that I think it's perfectly understandable if a professional, being called out on something that is their discipline, gets a little ratty about it now and then.

To add an on-topic (but outsider's) response, I would have to agree with Sanjet and SlamClick; CRM. If human factors are demonstrably the main cause of incidents, then anything that adds a gainsaying process to ground and cockpit behaviours has to be near the top of the list of "recent" innovations.
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
787atPAE
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:40 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:54 pm

I would like to add to the conversation computational capacity and capability. Granted, this has affected more than aviation, but look what increasted computer ability has given us.

This not only gives us FBW in aircraft at a fast enough rate to be useful (mentioned above), but also CFD, FEM, and solid modeling (CATIA, ProE, etc). Imagine what the 777 or A380 would be like without this increase in computer ability.

Also, FDRs are getting better too. In the past, we had FDRs with ten signals downlisted. Now we have hundreds. This provides for a good post-flight or post-accident reconstruction.

It's amazing what happens when you can get when you cycle through "2^n" more than a couple times.  Wink
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 23):
That would be the General Aviation Revitalization Act.

Thanks, I just couldn't think of it last night.

Quoting 787atPAE (Reply 27):
This not only gives us FBW in aircraft at a fast enough rate to be useful (mentioned above), but also CFD, FEM, and solid modeling (CATIA, ProE, etc). Imagine what the 777 or A380 would be like without this increase in computer ability.

Well what about the 747, Concorde, and all the fighters built before this computer ability. Might have been a little slower but there is no " the computer says its right so it must be" attitude. You make sure its right the first time. Measure twice and cut once.

Dan in Jupiter
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:27 pm




Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 25):
That's funny. I find the opposite. It seems this is the forum where most of the silly arguments are started by the ''know-it-all" users.

Heh heh....funny how we can interpret the forums so differently.  Smile

Last year, I summed up my view of how the Tech/Ops forum would look in real life:



 Wink


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 29):

Where does 2H4 fit?  wink 
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:02 pm




Quoting N231YE (Reply 30):
Where does 2H4 fit?

Not among those guys.....  Wink





I'd be on my own, far, far away from anything resembling useful knowledge or wisdom:






Big version: Width: 639 Height: 470 File size: 50kb



 Wink


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 31):



I apologize about the quality, this was a rush job in between college classes (and I am no EWS) wink 
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 32):

 rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 

However, how dare you cover the biggest ego on Tech/Ops like that!
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:56 am




Quoting N231YE (Reply 32):

Ha, that's great!  bigthumbsup 


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
zanl188
Posts: 3789
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:00 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
Does that mean none of us may explain how various innovations have impacted us (or not impacted us) personally?

I, for one, believe personal, objective points of view do a great job of helping us to understand the big picture.

One of the nicest things about Tech/Ops is that the regular contributors tend to be mature and respectful enough to keep the thread evolving, rather than stumbling into a round of bickering and fighting like a certain other forum....

I can't help but wonder if the OP is not participating in this thread due to the fact that it "derailed". It was clearly started with the intent of looking at technical innovation in aviation, devolved into a "facetious" thread about the air transportation industry (how we managed to turn a airline CEO into a "aviation technical innovation" is rather fascinating - but more appropriate for non-av than tech ops).

I would also point out that I did not pick a fight. I simply pointed out that the thread was derailing. And for those quick to point out the SD button I would suggest you could have done the same -- and did not.
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2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Most Innovative?

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:11 am




Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 9):
Too bad the thread is about what impact innovation has had on aviation not air transportation or your career.

ZAN, I'll be the first to admit the posts in this thread have strayed way off topic, but you still haven't answered my question relating to your quoted text above.

Are you taking the position that, in the context of the original post, none of us may explain how various innovations have impacted us (or not impacted us) personally?

As I said, I believe personal, objective points of view do a great job of helping us to understand the big picture. Do you refute this?


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:38 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 35):
I can't help but wonder if the OP is not participating in this thread due to the fact that it "derailed".

Well speculate all you want. I just IM'd him asking him to swing back by this thread he started and clarify that for us. Never thought gossip was much of a solution.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 35):
It was clearly started with the intent of looking at technical innovation in aviation

He never used the word "technical" in the thread title or the original post. That is your invention.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 35):
devolved into a "facetious" thread

Actually there have been serious offerings for discussion (including some from me) but the discussion of it seems less important to you than personal issues.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 35):
about the air transportation industry

Again you ignore this. It is called airLINERS.net and there is the site's official description regarding the nature of this particular forum including this tidbit: "technical issues as well as airline management" from Johan himself. I take that as my invitation to offer Frankie Lorenzo's management as an "innovation" that has had an impact. I even explained that it went beyond the "air transport" world but you ignored that too.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 35):
I would also point out that I did not pick a fight. I simply pointed out that the thread was derailing.

Bullshit. You singled me out. You ignored:

Quoting Wing (Reply 1):
better coffee makers

...which came before my post. For the record I fully support Wing in posting that. Without a little levity this forum can become stuffy and I agree with him about the coffee.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 35):
the thread was derailing

Again, only if you insert the non-existent word "technical" into the criteria. Again, that is your fantasy.

So until we hear from the thread-starter, if you think my posts are off topic then suggest that they be deleted.

Personally I think your reply #9 is the biggest single off-topic excursion on here.

* * *


Anyone else want to discuss any of the items listed so far, and their impact?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Most Innovative?

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 37):
Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 35):
I would also point out that I did not pick a fight. I simply pointed out that the thread was derailing.

Bullshit. You singled me out. You ignored:

Seconded. Up until that point only the issues were being debated. If someone with SlamClick's experience wants to tell us what little impact FBW had on his career, I want to hear it. If someone else with FBW experience wants to debate that issue with SlamClick, I'd like to hear that, too, thank you very much.

What I don't want to hear is someone else telling us what we can and can't debate. Even if the thread starter did have particular criteria in mind, there's no reason closely related matters can't be introduced to the debate - it happens all the time.

For the record, I did suggest deletion of Reply 9, for derailing the thread, and later Reply 35, for fanning the flames.

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