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dw747400
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Posts: 1100
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Crew Duty Limits (aka What Does § 135.267 Mean)

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:31 am

As a project at my university, I'm investigating the various aspects involved in the creation and operation of a Part 135 on demand carrier. Most everything has gone well, but I've been trying to make sense of § 135.267 all morning.

Paragraph B states:

Quote:
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed---

(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or

(2) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.

This is pretty simple, other than the exemption for paragraph C, which says:

Quote:
(c) A flight crewmember's flight time may exceed the flight time limits of paragraph (b) of this section if the assigned flight time occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and---

(1) If this duty period is immediately preceded by and followed by a required rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours of rest;

(2) If flight time is assigned during this period, that total flight time when added to any other commercial flying by the flight crewmember may not exceed---

(i) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or

(ii) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots; and

(3) If the combined duty and rest periods equal 24 hours.

My question is, how does C supersede B? It seems to me that according to C2, the flight time limits remain the same--and obviously the 10 hour rest period is the same. So what exactly is C trying to say?

I think my quotes are the pertinent parts, but if you want the whole thing it can be found here:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...&node=14:2.0.1.4.23.6.11.4&idno=14

Thanks very much!
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flyf15
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RE: Crew Duty Limits (aka What Does § 135.267 Mean)

Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:30 am

I don't know much about 135, but it seems to me like its saying that the times can be exceeded if they were previously scheduled and all the other requirements are met. If something is assigned to the pilot during the duty period, they can't go over the limits.
 
wing
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RE: Crew Duty Limits (aka What Does § 135.267 Mean)

Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:32 pm

In the aviation sometimes not everything goes as scheduled.Sometimes due to operational reasons a flight may be delayed during the departure or somewhere in the flight.So if some conditions are met,it should be OK for the crew to continue to the destination rather than landing to the nearest airport.This is something we use in airline flying for long international flights.
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dw747400
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RE: Crew Duty Limits (aka What Does § 135.267 Mean)

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 1):
it seems to me like its saying that the times can be exceeded if they were previously scheduled and all the other requirements are met.

Yes, but it looks like it is saying one of those "other requirements" is that:

(2) If flight time is assigned during this period, that total flight time when added to any other commercial flying by the flight crewmember may not exceed---

(i) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or

(ii) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots; and

(3) If the combined duty and rest periods equal 24 hours.

Quoting Wing (Reply 2):
Sometimes due to operational reasons a flight may be delayed during the departure or somewhere in the flight.

A good guess, but I doubt it. Provisions for unplanned delays are found elsewhere and are more specific then what is said here.
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lowrider
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RE: Crew Duty Limits (aka What Does § 135.267 Mean)

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:39 am

Basically if your trip was scheduled to be legal, it will continue to be legal despite any non-company delays. For example, with a 2 pilot crew, you can be scheduled for 10 hours of flight time. If holding or winds cause you to run over on a leg, you can still finish the day. But (and this part is debated hotly) the excess flight time may not take you beyond 14 hours of duty. Other 135 guys know how certain loopholes get exploited here, but that is the intent of the rule.
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turkee
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RE: Crew Duty Limits (aka What Does § 135.267 Mean)

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:55 am

From my reading, it does indeed have to do with unscheduled delays.

Paragraph C is specifying the operational delay (ie. non-scheduled duty time) can push the allowable duty time to 14 hours, provided the conditions in paragraph C(2) are met:

Quoting Dw747400 (Thread starter):
(2)If flight time is assigned during this period, that total flight time when added to any other commercial flying by the flight crewmember may not exceed---

The key-word here is "assigned". The "assigned" flight time cannot exceed 10 hours for a two-crew operation, however it is operationally acceptable for the crew to extend this duty to 14 hours, should the need arise. Operations staff cannot schedule to use this 14 hours though, I believe... at least that's how it works here in Australia. Our limits are a bit less stringent though.

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dw747400
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RE: Crew Duty Limits (aka What Does § 135.267 Mean)

Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting Turkee (Reply 5):
From my reading, it does indeed have to do with unscheduled delays.

But paragraph E specificall discusses that situation, and it is important to note to the FAA duty time and flight time are not the same. Even under normal conditions you can have a 14 hour duty time.

About unexpected stuff:

Quote:
(e) When a flight crewmember has exceeded the daily flight time limitations in this section, because of circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), that flight crewmember must have a rest period before being assigned or accepting an assignment for flight time of at least—

(1) 11 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by not more than 30 minutes;

(2) 12 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 30 minutes, but not more than 60 minutes; and

(3) 16 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 60 minutes.
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L-188
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RE: Crew Duty Limits (aka What Does § 135.267 Mean)

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:43 pm

I ran into these rules quite a bit when I was dispatching medevac flights under 135.

The short story is that as a dispatcher I can't intentionally schedual a flight to last longer then the available duty time for the flight crew. So if you are on the ground and can't make the duty limits, you don't fly.

Now if the flight encounters unanticipated headwinds or is put in a hold by ATC that extends that flight past the duty time, those would be common reasons why the crew would bust their 10 hour limit. Then the 12 hours rest time rule would apply.

If they do go over they get the extra rest time before they can fly again.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Crew Duty Limits (aka What Does § 135.267 Mean)

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:17 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
Now if the flight encounters unanticipated headwinds or is put in a hold by ATC that extends that flight past the duty time, those would be common reasons why the crew would bust their 10 hour limit. Then the 12 hours rest time rule would apply.

Is an Exceedence of FDTL Investigated.
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L-188
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RE: Crew Duty Limits (aka What Does § 135.267 Mean)

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):
Is an Exceedence of FDTL Investigated

I can't recall of one, but then again I don't think any of our pilots complained. Actually I think most where pretty happy to get the extra off time that is required if you do go over.

But then again we are talking Alaska flying conditions. You didn't want to get stuck out in the bush waiting for your duty time.

[Edited 2007-02-01 08:41:12]
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cptspeaking
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RE: Crew Duty Limits (aka What Does § 135.267 Mean)

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:38 pm

If a part 135 charter pilot does a little flight instruction on the side, this is the section that makes sure those pilots don't go teach for 4 hours, then drive over to the jet for a 10-hour flight assignment. It is limiting flight and duty time for all commercial ops performed by a pilot/crew, not just for that one charter company. That said, because of this rule, most 135 and 121 companies (using the sister rules) require their pilots to obtain prior approval from the company for any other commercial operations and flight instruction. That way, they are in the loop and know when one of their pilots may exceed limits.

I believe C2 is dealing with assigning more flight time after the duty period has already started. i.e. a customer decides they want to stop in Washington DC on the way home to LAX from NYC. A slight difference, but in lawyer speak it is huge...another loophole unless covered

Reworked a bit to read easier:

Quoting Dw747400 (Thread starter):

(c) A flight crewmember's flight time may exceed the flight time limits of paragraph (b) of this section if the assigned flight time occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and---



Quoting Dw747400 (Thread starter):
(2) If flight time is assigned during this period, that total flight time when added to any other commercial flying by the flight crewmember may not exceed---
(i) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(ii) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots

Otherwise:

Quoting Dw747400 (Thread starter):
during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed---

(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or

(2) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.

This is my interpretation...feel free to correct me if it's wrong...

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