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Tom12
Topic Author
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Recurrent Training?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:24 pm

Can someone tell me what exactly Recurrent is for Pilots?

To my knowledge it is some kind of training that takes place around this time of year?

Thanks, Tom
"Per noctem volamus" - Royal Air Force Bomber Squadron IX
 
wing
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:18 pm

Vey good timing for this question as I will be in the Sim for my recurrent the day after tomorrow.Every year we have to renew or licences to stay current with the airplane type we fly,that means a smaller scale training of the airplane itself on the ground school and 2 day simulator session for the emergency sessions.Our company uses its simulators evey 6 months for the pilots to stay with sharper skills.The training sylbus contains all the emergencies to be covered in every 2 years and the mandatory items covered in each session.

As in general the winter months are low season compared to the summer,company uses this oportunity to call the pilots to ground classes and simulator trainings.
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lowrider
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:41 am

Just finished my annual recurrent training. At most US airlines, pilots have to attend an annual refresher ground school and a checkride. It is based off of 12 calender months, though, and that clock starts when the pilot first qualifies on the aircraft. Captains also take an additional check ride that is six months from the annual proficiency check.

Some airlines use a recurrent syllabus that incorporates a shorter ground school and a checkride every 9 months, rather than than the longer ground school.
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SlamClick
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:42 am

Answering in generalities for the US airlines, it is training required under FAR 121 Subpart N. and specifically 121.427 but FAR 121.433 also names it as one of the "qualifications" authorizing an airline to use a pilot as a required crewmember.

The regulation (427) specifies that for Group II airplanes (turbojet) 25 hours will be completed each 12 calendar months.

In practice the Advanced Qualification Program has pretty much superseded Appendix N training but I'll stick to the Appendix here. Recurrent training does not necessarily get bunched up at one time of year. The entire pilot population must go through it so each individual pilot is more likely to have an "anniversary month" by which its completion will be accomplished.

Your anniversary month will be the month you completed your initial training. The day you pass your final checkride and are qualified to go out and fly the line starts the training clock ticking. So does any other quaification change. So you were hired in June and June has been your anniversary month. You transition to a different airplane, say, 737 to Airbus, the day you qualify in the Airbus starts a new training calendar for you.

There is a provision that the required training can be taken in the month before or the month after it was due without changing the anniversary month but contrary to urban legend there is no "grace month."

Some of the required training (25 hours for Group II) is often completed in correspondence and verified by written tests you can take at your domicile chief pilot's office. "Winter Ops" training may be counted as part of recurrent.

At one company where I taught it, we took the entire airplane initial ground school and divided it into two parts. We then did a recap of half of that school in a single day of training, a review and a Q&A session, really in recurrent each year. For example even year might be Electrical, instruments, lighting, performance and weight & balance. Odd year might be hydraulics, landing gear & brakes, flight controls, etc. We would also spend some time on "incidents" the flight department had experienced during the past 12 months plus anything our chief pilot or FAA inspectors wanted us to emphasize.

Annual and/or semiannual simulator training or proficiency checks are likely to be combined with recurrent. This gives you three or four days at the schoolhouse instead of two or three trips back there.

It was also common to have two days of ground school. One day could be any pilots, any equipment and this subject matter was company material but not aircraft specific. The second day you would split up by airplane type for your systems training.

By lunchtime on the second day it was also not uncommon to see the students in a sprinters crouch facing the door - eager to catch their flight home.  Smile
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
There is a provision that the required training can be taken in the month before or the month after it was due without changing the anniversary month but contrary to urban legend there is no "grace month."

Glad I reread your post; we still call the month after the due month the "grace" month. We have now implimented the AQP trg of which I'll participate next mo.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 4):
we still call the month after the due month the "grace" month.

Most of us do. It is as good a name as any. But, as a Fed explained it to me, if you plan to take a checkride in the "grace" month but fail to do so, or do so and bust it, each and every flight you took after the end of your regular month has now potentially become a separate, individual violation.

Pretty scary!
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lowrider
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 5):
if you plan to take a checkride in the "grace" month but fail to do so, or do so and bust it, each and every flight you took after the end of your regular month has now potentially become a separate, individual violation.

Scary, but wouldn' t that be sort of like multiple trips through the hangman's noose? Personally, I like to get my rides done in "early grace", just to get it over with.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 5):
if you plan to take a checkride in the "grace" month but fail to do so, or do so and bust it, each and every flight you took after the end of your regular month has now potentially become a separate, individual violation.

Interesting interpretation though not unusual for the Feds. Sometimes I think these guys are like customs, everybody has their own idea of the regs. I can say here that every month when you look at the list of pilots due trg. you'll see an indication beside the pilots in their "grace" month. If you're in your grace month then you have some priority for scheduling since you WILL be given trg. Any failure automatically makes you (NOQ) Non Operationally Qualified and you are removed from all future trips until trg is completed.
 
Tom12
Topic Author
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:07 pm

Thanks folks. Does this happen with every pilot or just within the States?

Tom
"Per noctem volamus" - Royal Air Force Bomber Squadron IX
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting SlamClick:
You transition to a different airplane, say, 737 to Airbus, the day you qualify in the Airbus starts a new training calendar for you.

What if you are concurrently rated on multiple types? Does this mean that you would be running multiple calendars with different start and end dates?
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SlamClick
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 9):
What if you are concurrently rated on multiple types?

Nobody I've ever met at any airline was so rated. I've heard urban legends that the base chief pilot at _____ airline might be current in both types at his base but...

Smaller airplanes operated under FAR Part 135, well, I just don't know about anymore. Haven't flown 135 for 27 years.

Also don't know for sure but I'd bet that European and other world regulations are somewhat similar in this requirement.
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BAE146QT
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:47 am

Thank you kindly, Slam.

You know, I always thought there would be pilots at an airline who would be proficient in at least two or three types - perhaps because of different route requirements. Am I correct in thinking that seniority and other factors would mean that certain captains would only do eg: long-haul and so would only ever fly, say, the 767?

I'm thinking that pay-scales might be factor here..?

What about the guys who do post-maint check flights? Or are they done by any handy captain who is rated for the bird in question?
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SlamClick
Posts: 9576
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 11):
Am I correct in thinking that seniority and other factors would mean that certain captains would only do eg: long-haul and so would only ever fly, say, the 767?

There are a few factors. I'll invent an airline here to illustrate what I mean.

This airline has 767 flying long-haul international and some Caribbean. They also have 757 flying some Caribbean and the rest domestic.

Now there is a fable (at least here in the US) that these two are a single type. They are not. They are two distinct types and are almost an exception to the "one-type only" practice. You can attend ONE ground school and take ONE checkride to get type rated in both, so long as the "differences" section of the syllabus is so approved by the FAA. I know this because that is what I did and I have BOTH type ratings.

Anyway there would likely be two pilot populations for these two aircraft types but the division between the pilot groups would not relate so much to the type differences but rather to the kind of flying. You would have an "international" group who were trained and current on the long-haul stuff and you would probably have a "domestic" group who mostly did back and forth across the country.

The domestic group might do some Caribbean flying and would be overwater qualified to the extent required for that operation but they might not ever jump in a 767.

The international group might run 767s back and forth across the Atlantic most of the time but occasionally run down to Jamaica or somewhere. They might just walk to the gate and find that a 757 assigned to their Caribbean route.

Thus, these guys would be jumping "type" for that run but they are similar enough for that to be acceptable to the FAA as long as training and currency requirements are met.

But for an Airbus pilot to find a 737 assigned to this segment - ain't gonna happen unless a Boeing crew was also assigned the trip. In which case I get paid for the subbed-out trip and go home.

The flight attendants might, on the other hand, find themselves aboard almost anything.

Now at my fictitious airline both the 757 and 767 pay the same hourly rate. Caribbean pays an override on the pay rate and transAtlantic pays an even bigger one. For that reason the long haul tends to go more senior. Oh, that an the fact that London, Paris and Rome are more exciting layovers than London Kentucky, Paris Pennsylvania (pop. 200) and Rome Georgia.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 11):
Am I correct in thinking that seniority and other factors would mean that certain captains would only do eg: long-haul and so would only ever fly, say, the 767?

Absolutely. You have a fleet of jets that have their own specific theater and if your senority will hold the seat you want in the jet you want go for it. There were certain cities I used to hang out in when I flew the DC-10 but I finally decided I needed to move to the MD-11 and now I see other interesting places too.

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 11):
I'm thinking that pay-scales might be factor here..?

Yes and no... depends on the individual pilot and his priorities. Some folks move up at the first chance while others relish the senority in a junior seat.

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 11):
What about the guys who do post-maint check flights? Or are they done by any handy captain who is rated for the bird in question?

At least not here, there's a flight test gruop that would fly a maint required flight.
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:15 am

Again, many thanks Slam and Cruiser.

I'm afraid that you have raised some extra questions though...

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 12):
Now there is a fable (at least here in the US) that these two are a single type [...] You can attend ONE ground school and take ONE checkride to get type rated in both, so long as the "differences" section of the syllabus is so approved by the FAA.

Your answer was deliciously vivid, but is obfuscatory because the liners you chose are so deliberately similar. You've essentially answered my question; you get a type and you ride it - but you've also answered one that I didn't ask. To wit, "What happens when the planes are functionally similar but have different flying characteristics?"

You're rated on both, (which almost makes you your urban legend, except for the facts you describe above), so how does that work? Do you check out on one each year and also do the "differences" again?

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 13):
Yes and no... depends on the individual pilot and his priorities. Some folks move up at the first chance while others relish the senority in a junior seat.

Like, "I could be a 747 FO, but I would prefer to be a 737 Captain"?

I can see that. I would rather be a well-trained and respected techie, than work at being an average director. I might be able to DO the director's job, but I wouldn't like it and I wouldn't be happy. And the pay wouldn't be much different

Maybe not a direct comparison there, but I hope it translates.

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 13):
At least not here, there's a flight test gruop that would fly a maint required flight.

I do not know who you work for, but I am assuming multiple types. Can they fly anything in your fleet, or do they have a test pilot or two for each?
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 14):
I can see that. I would rather be a well-trained and respected techie, than work at being an average director

It's more of a case of staying senior and holding better trips than say being a low senority capt and flying less desirable trips. To each his own. I preferred the upgrade when possible.

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 14):
Can they fly anything in your fleet, or do they have a test pilot or two for each?

There's several for each type and I'll go out on a limb here and say some may be dual rated.
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:38 am

I understand entirely, Cosmic. I'd say my analogy translated well, since doing interesting stuff as a senior tech is far better than being the board's junior b*tch in a cheap suit.

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 15):
There's several for each type and I'll go out on a limb here and say some may be dual rated.

I won't ask any further questions on this and waste everyone's time - instead I will go and look at the FARs and determine how that works for people flying big liners on non-revenue test flights.

Prediction: It's a whole different kettle of fish.
Prediction: It says nothing about whether the test flights are allowed to overfly residences.
Prediction: Barrel rolls are not compulsory anymore.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 16):
Prediction: It's a whole different kettle of fish.

yea, they don't fly the line but do fly acceptance flights for newly purchased jets etc.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 14):
how does that work?

The way it works on the two-for-the-price-of-one Boeing 757/767 training is this: The Company declares to the FAA when they submit their training documents that one of them (767 say) is the "basic" airplane and the other will be taught as "differences" at the appropriate point(s) in the course.

From there you can teach the entire 767 then, when that is done, cover the 757 differences in a separate, discrete training module, or you could teach the 767 electrical system plus 757 electrical differences and so on through the systems. Either way the students get everything.

In recurrenct (back on topic) it works pretty much the same way: Talk about the basic airplane, talk about the differences.

For a checkride, the maneuvers are just about identical for all types, so the checkride can be either airplane or just one and the differences can be a "briefing item" rather than a checkride maneuver/procedure.

One simulator serves both types. We all know that the _____ panel is slightly different in the 757 but that's been covered...

That is for the 75/76. For airplanes of substantially differing type, I just don't know. If a management pilot maintains quals on two different types, they have nothing better to do than go to training twice as often! Why not?  Smile

As I said it has been more than 25 years since I've been current in more than one type. Back when, I might have to take checkrides in DC-3 in April and BE-18 in October and so forth, I just don't remember much about it. But those planes were pretty simple compared with the newer stuff.
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2H4
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:37 am




Quoting SlamClick (Reply 18):
Back when, I might have to take checkrides in DC-3 in April and BE-18 in October and so forth, I just don't remember much about it. But those planes were pretty simple compared with the newer stuff.

I suppose the real challenge in flying older recips like those would be remembering how the panel in one BE-18 differs from the panel in another BE-18, etc.

Although I haven't flown those types personally, I understand they weren't known for their standardization, even among like models....


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
SlamClick
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:14 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
the real challenge in flying older recips like those would be remembering how the panel in one BE-18 differs from the panel in another BE-18, etc

Exactly so. Worse, even fuel tank selector positions might be different from one plane to another. When is AUX the same as OFF?
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2H4
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RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:21 am




Quoting SlamClick (Reply 20):
Exactly so. Worse, even fuel tank selector positions might be different from one plane to another. When is AUX the same as OFF?

Was this a result of aircraft manufacturers building to customer specs, thus leaving later operators with mixed and dissimilar fleets?


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:27 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 21):
Was this a result of aircraft manufacturers building to customer specs, thus leaving later operators with mixed and dissimilar fleets?

I have no real idea. It could have been. Might have been people installing some part common to their other types or something.

On one aircraft I flew there was a single part number for the annunciator panel but no way to know until you opened the box whether it would be in English or Portuguese. (not mentioning any names)

Another example, TWA ordered their DC-9 fleet with the overhead panel set up so that UP is ON. The rest of the world's DC-9s had FORWARD is ON or UP is OFF. So anyone buying their old airplanes (I think Midway ended up with a bunch) had to roll the overhead panel or deal with something pretty awkward.
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2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:46 am




Quoting SlamClick (Reply 22):
no way to know until you opened the box whether it would be in English or Portuguese.

Details, details. Just be glad it wasn't Russian....  Wink

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 22):
So anyone buying their old airplanes (I think Midway ended up with a bunch) had to roll the overhead panel or deal with something pretty awkward.

I'm sure it must have been nice to be able to customize panel configurations for individual customers, but I find it amazing that the aircraft manufacturers deemed future dissimilarity issues a worthwhile price to pay for that luxury.

Granted, litigation wasn't nearly as big an issue then as it is now, but from liability and safety standpoints, customizing panels for individual customers would be akin to Ford offering custom pedal configurations on their cars. Sure, it might make certain people (ie: disabled folks) really happy, but is it worth mixing future owners up, and indirectly causing accidents?


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2440
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Recurrent Training?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 18):
From there you can teach the entire 767 then, when that is done, cover the 757 differences in a separate, discrete training module,

Similiar to our MD-11/MD-10 common type. They really have many differences.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 20):
Worse, even fuel tank selector positions might be different from one plane to another. When is AUX the same as OFF?

What a great old plane! I flew a C-45, D-18, E-18,and an H-18 and I think there wasn't one thing common among them all! I probably couldn't remember that stuff today.


Quoting SlamClick (Reply 18):
One simulator serves both types.

At least we do have seperate sims for the -11 and the MD-10.
 
TimT
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:38 pm

RE: Recurrent Training?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:40 pm

I'm MTC runup and taxi instructor. I'm going Monday to the sim for recurrent training. Normal yearly deal. We also have recurrent tests on all the a/c systems, including lower landing minimums. And company policy and procedures.

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