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Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:41 pm

Each and every time that there is a comparison thread like this, I'm amazed at how many people bring up completely irrelevant points - such as the looks of an aircraft or whether they perceive that it would scare passengers on takeoff...

Seriously...

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 45):
Nevertheless, I still (and always will) enjoy watching A and B cheerleaders cringe when they see one.

... just as I'm sure they'll enjoy seeing MD cheerleaders cringe when they respond with the question "So, how many MD11s are being ordered and built these days"...  Wink ... every coin has two sides...

Then again, the cringing from seeing one could just be because they think the plane looks so old and outdated as if it were simply a flashback from history... oops... there's me going into irrelevant points such as looks again... Big grin
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Magyarorszag
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:35 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 22):
the back wheels of the main bogeys stay on the ground for 7 or 8 seconds after it starts to lift up.



Quoting KPDX (Reply 42):

I've watched that video, and the A343 main bogeys stay on the ground but for "only" 4-5 seconds.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 49):
Wasn't it IAE which proposed the Superfan but later decided to cancel the project?

Yes, that's right. IAE is a joint company formed by P&W, R-R, FIat, MTU and Japanese Aero Engines Corp.

Cheers.

[Edited 2007-01-27 12:02:46]
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:42 pm

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 10):
Many have quoted Wikipedia on this forum, and very often the encyclopedia was wrong or not kept up to date. Too bad, could be a good tool otherwise.

If it's wrong and you are sure of it, FIX IT. AFAIK most articles can be edited by anyone. Even better, reference your sources when you do edit the article.

That being said, someone did a study about a year or two ago that found that wikipedia was about as accurate as commercial encyclopedias (Britannica, etc.)
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 45):
You guys and gals have to dig pretty deep to put down the MD11. Looks, performance, cockpit visibility, payload versatility.....it's got it all.

Yes, aside from all things technical, I don't know how anyone could dislike the MD-11. It is in a league of it's own, the only modern trijet airliner. Even 5 years after production was prematurely stopped, it still is one of the five largest long haul airliners built.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 45):
The only thing it doesn't have is support from the company who now owns the design. The only way to kill an MD is to buy the company and cancel the product.

Which is pretty much what Boeing did. The McDonnell side of the manufacturer made some bad decisions to put the company in jeopardy. If it were restructured and downsized it could have survived.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 45):
Nevertheless, I still (and always will) enjoy watching A and B cheerleaders cringe when they see one.

Yes, but for a change this one has no technical invovlement from Boeing.  wink 

Quoting Zeke (Reply 47):
The name of the game is efficiency, not time or speed records.

I doubt McDonell Douglas designed the MD-11 to break speed records.  sarcastic  Being that it is a larger, more powerful, modernized DC-10; it's fast speed was a direct result.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 50):
... just as I'm sure they'll enjoy seeing MD cheerleaders cringe when they respond with the question "So, how many MD11s are being ordered and built these days"...

You know,.. it's widely believed the MD-11 failed because from the first flight, it did not meet performance expectations and was delayed thereafter. Hmm,.. and how many years has the A380 been pushed back again?  smirk 

Quoting Leskova (Reply 50):
Then again, the cringing from seeing one could just be because they think the plane looks so old and outdated as if it were simply a flashback from history... oops...

I can notice the difference between a DC-10-10 and an MD-11. The MD-11 is the only modern trijet design, so of course it brings back a classic design from the 70's era.

Just curious, do you think the A300-6R looks old and outdated?
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
User avatar
LHRBFSTrident
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:38 pm

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:39 pm

Quoting Beeweel15 (Reply 33):
As for VS I remember when they bought the A340 series it was mentioned that they bought them to show support for the European Manufacturer and as a jab at BA who had a mostly american fleet.

Don't get me wrong - as I haven't actually spoken with him - but I am pretty sure this was not the basis for SRB's fleet decision!

That may have been a convenient reason for PR purposes (does he ever love PR!!) but he's nobody's fool when it comes to running an airline - my guess is: it was the economics...
 
wing
Posts: 1366
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 9:10 pm

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:33 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 21):
Compare these 2 climb rates
MD11¨(KL MD11 AMS-BON-LIM)



Quoting RootsAir (Reply 21):
A340-300(IB 343 MAD-SJO)



Quoting RootsAir (Reply 21):
NO COMMENT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Without knowing the weights,temps, loads,thrust settings of the particular flights,your comparison is very much misleading and irrelevant.

A340 engines are not underpowered,from my limited knowledge of A340 ground school is that a loss of an engine is not an LASAP,gives the captain to make a decision of continue to dest or land to a suitable airport.

Another impressive highlight from my ground school(although not related to the subject) was a loss of cabin pressure before ETP on Atlantic gives the captain to return back to the departure which is Istanbul.Now if you look at the world map thats very impressive.
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
Magyarorszag
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:06 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 53):
I don't know how anyone could dislike the MD-11.

I like it, its second on my list. Really enjoy the rocket take off...

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 53):
You know,.. it's widely believed the MD-11 failed because from the first flight, it did not meet performance expectations and was delayed thereafter.

That was a bad start, but the cancellation of SQ order was like an earth quake for the pax version.

Except AA, I don't remember having read anything about delays in deliveries when they finally started. I remember that the first Swissair aircraft arrived fourteen months late compared to what was planned. But that was due to industrial action at McDonnell Douglas and their bad management.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:42 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 53):
I can notice the difference between a DC-10-10 and an MD-11. The MD-11 is the only modern trijet design, so of course it brings back a classic design from the 70's era.

Just curious, do you think the A300-6R looks old and outdated?

The comparison is somewhat invalid. While airliner trijets are a dieing breed, the A300 was the first twin widebody - a revolutionary change which can still be seen today which is/was adopted by most manufacturers.

Therefore we should say: The design philosophy of the MD-11 was outdated, not the design itself, but today that's also true. The A300 design philosophy is still widely used, while its design is also outdated.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 56):
the cancellation of SQ order was like an earth quake for the pax version.

Yes, that cancellation was to the MD-11 what the DL cancellation was to the MD-90. Ironically, after the range was increased by 8%, the MD-11 would have delivered the required range for SQ and could outperform the A343. More cargo space and one hour quicker on the Singapore-Paris route.

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 56):
Except AA, I don't remember having read anything about delays in deliveries when they finally started.

The majority of the delays happened prior to full production. But I believe some airlines chose to wait until all the PIP's had been addressed before taking their deliveries., IE KLM.

Quoting A342 (Reply 57):
The comparison is somewhat invalid. While airliner trijets are a dieing breed, the A300 was the first twin widebody - a revolutionary change which can still be seen today which is/was adopted by most manufacturers.

Regardless of the designs, the MD-11 is not quite a dinosour yet. While not ultra modern, it is not at an L-1011 level either. The A306R was the latest improved A300 pax version and put into service nearly three years before the first MD-11. The latest improved MD-11's were put in service in '94-'95. Clearly the latter has an edge.

Quoting A342 (Reply 57):
The design philosophy of the MD-11 was outdated, not the design itself, but today that's also true. The A300 design philosophy is still widely used, while its design is also outdated.

And the revolutionary design Airbus created was later mastered by Boeing.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 58):
The A306R was the latest improved A300 pax version and put into service nearly three years before the first MD-11. The latest improved MD-11's were put in service in '94-'95. Clearly the latter has an edge.

I don't see where it has a technological edge, so please enlighten me. Maybe a bit more glass in the cockpit, but what else ?

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 58):
And the revolutionary design Airbus created was later mastered by Boeing.

I didn't doubt that.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 59):
Maybe a bit more glass in the cockpit, but what else ?

Yes, the glass cockpit is noticeably different. The MD-11 has six CRT displays. Doppler radar was at DL's request. Winglets, the redesigned wing trailing edge, smaller horizontal tail, and extended tail-cone add greater aerodynamics. More powerful engines equals greater cruise speed performance.

Of course there is the greater range, seating/cargo capacity, and max weights. ETOPS is not an issue, for the A300 it is.

There was also the advanced heavy model Swissair flew. MGTOW of 630,500 lbs, additional PIP modifications, and composite panels. KLM flies MD-11's fitted with a new, larger No. 2 engine intake, which is 400 lbs lighter and offers increased efficiency. Probably one of the reasons they have held onto their MD-11's so long.

There are other less notable features, such as the configuration silhouette display on the F/O's side.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7077
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:07 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 25):
I understood that that was not the case and that indeed the A343 at MTOW will outclimb the 744 at MTOW to FL10, after which the 744 is better.

The problem here is the general speed limit of 250 kts below 10,000 feet.

The 744 cannot clean up at MTOW at 250 kts. Or at least, if cleaned up, it flies at a high and inefficient angle of attack at MTOW and 250 kts.

The 343 has a much more generously sized wing compared to weight, and it flies efficiently in clean configuration at 250 kts at MTOW and low altitude.

But often (if traffic is not too intensive) a 744 driver will ask ATC for a waiver to 270 or 280 kts, and then it gains efficiency. And saves a lot of fuel compared to otherwise struggling with the high drag wing.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:55 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 53):
Just curious, do you think the A300-6R looks old and outdated?

In short: yes.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 53):
You know,.. it's widely believed the MD-11 failed because from the first flight, it did not meet performance expectations and was delayed thereafter. Hmm,.. and how many years has the A380 been pushed back again? smirk

Too long to even be called embarrassing... though whether or not it'll be less, equally or more successful as the MD11 still remains to be seen.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 53):
Yes, aside from all things technical, I don't know how anyone could dislike the MD-11. It is in a league of it's own, the only modern trijet airliner. Even 5 years after production was prematurely stopped, it still is one of the five largest long haul airliners built.

If may be in a league of it's own, but that's not necessarily a good thing - personally, it offers nothing of value in my eyes... it's about as noisy as a B777 on the inside, its 3-3-3/2-4-3/2-5-2 config is no benefit to comfort... there's just nothing about it that I'd consider a big plus.

And even if it 's still one of the five largest longhaul airliners built - did that help? Doesn't seem so... as visible with the B747/A380, size is not necessarily always a plus, but often enough more of a liability.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 60):
Winglets, the redesigned wing trailing edge, smaller horizontal tail, and extended tail-cone add greater aerodynamics. More powerful engines equals greater cruise speed performance.

Of course there is the greater range, seating/cargo capacity, and max weights. ETOPS is not an issue, for the A300 it is.

Ok, but as the A300 and MD-11 didn't compete, those are non-issues.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 62):
its 3-3-3/2-4-3/2-5-2 config is no benefit to comfort

2-4-3 is simply great. Whether you travel in groups of 2, 3 or 4, you will probably be seated together.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Magyarorszag
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 60):
KLM flies MD-11's fitted with a new, larger No. 2 engine intake, which is 400 lbs lighter and offers increased efficiency.



Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 58):
But I believe some airlines chose to wait until all the PIP's had been addressed before taking their deliveries., IE KLM.

The larger intake was one of the few changes in the PIP which could not be retrofitted. The first aircraft on the production line which had the new intake installed was f/n 575 (PH-KCE - fifth KLM MD-11), delivered to KLM in November 1994

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 58):
Ironically, after the range was increased by 8%, the MD-11 would have delivered the required range for SQ and could outperform the A343. More cargo space and one hour quicker on the Singapore-Paris route.

Yes, of course, but that was more than four year after the first delivery. Too bad when you think that in February 1991, there were 377 commitments from 32 customers.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 60):
MGTOW of 630,500 lbs

While the original MD-11P MGTOW was 618,000 lbs.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 60):
additional PIP modifications

With the A-1 Package 3, the take-off field length was reduced by 500-900ft.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:01 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 62):
If may be in a league of it's own, but that's not necessarily a good thing - personally, it offers nothing of value in my eyes...

To each their own. As an airliner enthusiast, in my eyes it's one of a kind, which makes it unique. I don't run an airline so I could care less how much more economical it is to operate a 777.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 62):
it's about as noisy as a B777 on the inside, its 3-3-3/2-4-3/2-5-2 config is no benefit to comfort

Well you can make the case it should be louder than a 777, given that it has more engines and a tail engine. Secondly, there are plenty of other aircraft that share those seating arrangements. It doesn't just apply to the MD-11.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 62):
size is not necessarily always a plus, but often enough more of a liability.

Note to Airbus..

Quoting A342 (Reply 63):
Ok, but as the A300 and MD-11 didn't compete, those are non-issues.

I know they didn't compete. I didn't say they did. But you asked me to elaborate, so I did.  smile 

Quoting A342 (Reply 63):
2-4-3 is simply great. Whether you travel in groups of 2, 3 or 4, you will probably be seated together.

Well at least we agree on something.  wink 

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 64):
Yes, of course, but that was more than four year after the first delivery.

These adjustments were complete by early 1994. So a little more than three years to be exact. But it is a moot point when you take into account that SQ did not receive their first A343 until 1996. Which they quickly disposed of in favor of the 777 anyway.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
Magyarorszag
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:15 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 65):
These adjustments were complete by early 1994. So a little more than three years to be exact.

How could that be, when the first new intake was installed on an aircraft in November 1994. Plus, the final part of the PIP, Phase IV came in early 1995 with a further 1,2% drag reduction.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 65):
But it is a moot point when you take into account that SQ did not receive their first A343 until 1996.

Perhaps you see it as a moot point, but in truth, SQ placed its order back in 1991, when they weren't convinced by the MD-11 performances, still more than three years before the adjustments were complete. And indeed, after five years, SQ withdrew from its fleet the A340s. But they had already done it in the past with the A300s and the DC-10s.

Cheers.
 
rootsair
Posts: 4013
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:25 am

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting Wing (Reply 55):

Without knowing the weights,temps, loads,thrust settings of the particular flights,your comparison is very much misleading and irrelevant.

come on ! everyone knows that an MD 11 climbs a lot faster than an A340
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 66):
How could that be, when the first new intake was installed on an aircraft in November 1994. Plus, the final part of the PIP, Phase IV came in early 1995 with a further 1,2% drag reduction.

I was talking about the range alone, not the No.2 intake PIP. In early 1994, McDonnell Douglas announced the increased range changes from their aggressive engineering efforts. The P&W engines offered an 8% increase in range while the GE engines offered 6.5%. These were well above the forcasted numbers. Furthermore, MD launched the MD-11ER at the Singapore Air Show in Feb. 1994.

As for KLM, the first aircraft with the new intake was delivered in November 1994. (Audrey Hepburn, line number 575)

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 66):
SQ placed its order back in 1991, when they weren't convinced by the MD-11 performances, still more than three years before the adjustments were complete.

I thought the order was around '93 or so but I'm not doubting you. What is ironic though is the improved MD-11's would have entered service a couple years earlier than the A343's did had SQ been patient and kept the order.

I think we'd all agree had MD delivered the MD-11 new in 1990 with all the improvement the last birds had, there would be a lot more MD-11's in the skies today.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
wing
Posts: 1366
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 9:10 pm

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:12 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 67):
come on ! everyone knows that an MD 11 climbs a lot faster than an A340

It still doesnt change the fact that your comparison was irrelevant and misleading.Airplane performance is a serious science,it doesnt work as everyone knows.
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
Magyarorszag
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: A343 VS MD11ER

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:50 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 68):
I thought the order was around '93 or so but I'm not doubting you. What is ironic though is the improved MD-11's would have entered service a couple years earlier than the A343's did had SQ been patient and kept the order.

SQ had placed its order for the MD-11 (5+15) in January 1990 with deliveries expected between 1994-1996. On August 2nd, 1991, the airline cancelled that order and replaced it with 20 of the new A340 version, the A340-313X which had a higher MTOW compared to other A343s. As you say, if SQ had been patient, the MD-11 would have fullfilled the requirement, but the problem for Singapore was the delay of the aircraft comparred to its plans, and also the lack of confidence in the trijet capabilities. In a billion dollar business, hesitation is not a too good thing. But I would have love to see these MD-11s in SQ colours.

Cheers.

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