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IFACN
Topic Author
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:14 am

Atis Comms

Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:21 am

Listening to Milano Linate (LIML) ATIS, sometimes the message has a single letter code as in this morning one: "This is Milano Linate ATIS information YANKEE at 1116 ..."; sometimes it's two letter as this evening: "This is Milano Linate ATIS Information OSCAR ALPHA at 1815...".

On my flight school book there's no explanation and I expected that the message goes from ALPHA to ZULU and then starts again with ALPHA (even in the same day?). Any idea about it?

Again in the ATIS message, after specifying the RWY in use there's always a "condition level" (usually eight-zero, seven-five or seven-zero). Has this any relation with rwy condition (dry, wet, slippery, ...)?

(LIML ATIS has something weird now and then; days ago it reported a QNH of 102333)

Regards,
A.
 
corey07850
Posts: 2335
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:33 am

RE: Atis Comms

Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting IFACN (Thread starter):

Again in the ATIS message, after specifying the RWY in use there's always a "condition level" (usually eight-zero, seven-five or seven-zero). Has this any relation with rwy condition (dry, wet, slippery, ...)?

Sounds like it may be the ruwany friction reading. Where I work we run runway friction tests during periods of snow/ice and values below 40 are notam'ed... 70 is a pretty decent mu, most likely just after its been snowing for a bit, or a while after the runway has been deiced... What was the weather during the time?

As for the Atis Oscar-Alpha, I would take a guess and say that it was an amendment before the hourly is due, but in that case it should just have gone to Papa... Not sure, perhaps others more familiar with European airports can explain
 
IFACN
Topic Author
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:14 am

RE: Atis Comms

Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 1):
Sounds like it may be the ruwany friction reading. What was the weather during the time?

This morning it was reported 75 and weather was fog, temperature 7 Celsius, dew point 5, overcast 7000, RVR 1000. No snow, ice or rain.

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 1):
As for the Atis Oscar-Alpha, I would take a guess and say that it was an amendment before the hourly is due, but in that case it should just have gone to Papa...

The funny thing is that it goes, say, from Delta Alpha to Echo Alpha. This morning I tuned in and listened the last part of Delta Alpha; I listened the message again and then again (it's poorly transmitted, with a lot of static in the background so it's usual to listen to the message twice or thrice to get all the details) - I wasn't able to understand the clouds.
The message Delta Alpha was repeated:
- missing the temperature/QNH;
- missing also the clouds;
- missing the visibility/RVR;
- then missing also the wind;
Finally, it restarted as Echo Alpha ...

A.
 
flymatt2bermud
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:58 am

RE: Atis Comms

Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:38 am

I'm not sure is this is related but I recall last Summer having had one European controller following most of his words with the 'ah' or 'ay' sound. It nearly killed us trying to find out what intersection they were clearing us to. Then it got even more confusing when I requested he spell the fix and he replied something like. "Roger, you are cleared to ITECA that's I "ah", T, E "ah", C "ah" A. So when we could not find IATEACAA our only response was "Unable." I am being totally serious with this post, I am not poking fun.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward" Leonardo Da Vinci
 
Spruit
Posts: 367
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:34 am

RE: Atis Comms

Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:37 pm

Quoting FlyMatt2Bermud (Reply 3):
It nearly killed us trying to find out what intersection they were clearing us to. Then it got even more confusing when I requested he spell the fix and he replied something like. "Roger, you are cleared to ITECA that's I "ah", T, E "ah", C "ah" A. So when we could not find IATEACAA our only response was "Unable

So did you reported this lack of ability to communicate to the relevant ATSU as a priority!?
E=Mc2
 
IFACN
Topic Author
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:14 am

RE: Atis Comms

Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:42 pm

I was speaking of ATIS, anyway what you're telling us happened in a similar way days ago. I don't remember if I was listening to LIML TWR or Milan Departures, but the dialogue went on like this:
Control: "Golf Charlie Delta, cleared to turn left to Romagnano"
Aircraft: "Roger, turn left to... uhm... Rom... Rome... "
Ctl: "Romagnano"
Acft: "Please repeat..."
Ctl: "Romeo Mike Golf"
Acft "Oh, ok, roger, turn left to Romeo Mike Golf"

RMG is a VOR (or NDB station? don't have the northern Italy map here) also used as a reporting point, Romagnano is the small town nearby. I wonder why the controller didn't use the station ID, spelled using ICAO alphabet, in its first communication.

The same way, I'd expect that if you ask to the controller to spell ITECA, the reply would be "India Tango Echo Charlie Alpha" ...

Just thoughts from a student pilot with only 30hrs of training  Smile

A.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2439
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Atis Comms

Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:29 pm

Quoting IFACN (Reply 5):
I wonder why the controller didn't use the station ID, spelled using ICAO alphabet, in its first communication.

Some do some don't.It's just easier to say it the first time and quicker too. If you're a regular on the route then you probably know what he said, if not you get that "deer in the headlights" look and ask again. It's sometimes difficult just for the fact that the waypoints in most cases don't make any sense anyway; then have a controller pronouncing them in his/her native accent . I look down at the MCDU and see if any of the visible points look like what I think he/she said and if not ask again and start scrolling down the flt. pln. Usually when asked the second time they spell it out. For me Asia is sometimes tough, mainly 'cause I fly there less often than I do to Europe. There was one flight I remember when the Taiwan female controller called us and said something. Neither of us understood and I asked again. She said the samething and again I asked her to repeat. This time I said "say the identifier" Again she said the samething! We both looked at each other and my f/o said "I don't have a clue". Finally a CO pilot said "she said proceed to XXXX".
 
wing
Posts: 1366
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 9:10 pm

RE: Atis Comms

Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:34 pm

Quoting IFACN (Thread starter):
Milano Linate ATIS information YANKEE at 1116

ATIS informations are recorded at 20 and 50 past the hour unless there is a sudden change in the information. Although not very sure,depending on the information you gave;

Quoting IFACN (Reply 2):
The message Delta Alpha was repeated:
- missing the temperature/QNH;
- missing also the clouds;
- missing the visibility/RVR;
- then missing also the wind;
Finally, it restarted as Echo Alpha ...

The ATIS maybe continuosly updating the ATIS information but only the changed values,if there is no change them it doesnt report anything.



Quoting IFACN (Reply 5):
"Golf Charlie Delta, cleared to turn left to Romagnano"
Aircraft: "Roger, turn left to... uhm... Rom... Rome... "
Ctl: "Romagnano"
Acft: "Please repeat..."
Ctl: "Romeo Mike Golf"
Acft "Oh, ok, roger, turn left to Romeo Mike Golf"

The waypoints have 5 letters, the NAVAIDS have 3 letter identifiers.Navaids also maybe located over waypoints which are actually named after the city,town etc they are in.An example there is a VOR,and waypoint named EGG(which is actually named after Eggenfelden.) Sometimes controllers clear you direct to Eggenfelden and you can reply shortly as EGG.

Quoting FlyMatt2Bermud (Reply 3):
Roger, you are cleared to ITECA that's I "ah", T, E "ah", C "ah" A. So when we could not find IATEACAA our only response was "Unable." I am being totally serious with this post, I am not poking fun.

After 2 years in the USA (ERAU) getting very much used to clear English of the American controllers,I was very sure that I can understand and speak with every kind of ATC in the world.After all I was able to speak with the native English speakers how hard would it be now.But in rest of the world everybody speaks the English with their national slang and it may become a pain to understand if you are not familiar.

Not to cause misunderstandings the controller you have spoken should have spell it with the phonetic alphabet like,India-Tango-Echo-Charlie-Alpha.
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flymatt2bermud
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:58 am

RE: Atis Comms

Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting Spruit (Reply 4):
So did you reported this lack of ability to communicate to the relevant ATSU as a priority!?

No. To be honest, there was never any real problem other than frustration with communications, which WAS understood, we had to be extremely careful with our interpretations and verified anything that had even a hint of error. However, if we were not knowledgeable of our routing and waypoints it may have been a problem.

Quoting Wing (Reply 7):
But in rest of the world everybody speaks the English with their national slang and it may become a pain to understand if you are not familiar.

Not to cause misunderstandings the controller you have spoken should have spell it with the phonetic alphabet like,India-Tango-Echo-Charlie-Alpha.

You are absolutely correct on both points. English is spoken differently in many areas of the world and/or simply by some individuals, even US stateside.

Didn't mean to get off topic, I thought it may have been a slang term on the poster's ATIS recording.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward" Leonardo Da Vinci

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