Moderators: richierich, ua900, hOMSaR

 
CoolGuy
Topic Author
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:13 am

Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:14 pm

The JetBlue A320 that had to circle around LAX for hours because it couldn't dump fuel is an example of an aircraft that can't. Which ones do have that capability and what's the reason that this wouldn't be included in the design of an aircraft. It was a quite a surprise to me that the A320 could not do so.
 
SFOMB67
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:20 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:00 pm

I know a 762 cannot dump fuel, but the 763 can. I believe an aircraft that cannot dump fuel has the ability to land with full fuel load. I think this is generally a weight problem.
Not as easy as originally perceived
 
GQfluffy
Posts: 3072
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 1):
I believe an aircraft that cannot dump fuel has the ability to land with full fuel load.

Try again.... Oh, and try looking here...you...and the thread-starter...who obviously is too lazy to even attempt to look anything up for himself.

https://www.airliners.net/info/
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:27 pm

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
AJ
Posts: 2299
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:54 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:21 pm

Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 1):
I know a 762 cannot dump fuel, but the 763 can.

Not all our -300(ER)s have fuel dump. Fuel can only be dumped from the CWT of the 767 so often it is not of any use anyway when over MLW!

As for the 767-200 it would seem that Continental's late build -224s have fuel dump, as evidenced by the dump nozzle in this photo:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jørgen Syversen - AirTeamImages



Cheers.
 
Valcory
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:56 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting CoolGuy (Thread starter):
It was a quite a surprise to me that the A320 could not do so.

Why is it quite a surprise? The 737 does not have a Jettison system the 757 which is larger than the A320 does not have a Jettison system the 767-200 (early version) does not have a Jettison system. How ever i am surprise that the A320 has a RAT.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:55 pm

Quoting Valcory (Reply 5):
How ever i am surprise that the A320 has a RAT.

Considering that the B737 has got Manual control Provisions in the Pitch & Roll & a Second Rudder Actuator [Stby] hence no RAT needed.The A320 is FBW hence the RAT is an Important add.
The B757 has got a RAT too  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:58 pm

With the ditching in NYC, I start to wonder if fuel dumping should be implemented on the A320?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
flexo
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:55 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:20 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 7):
With the ditching in NYC, I start to wonder if fuel dumping should be implemented on the A320?

Why is that? I fail to see how that would have helped here!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:17 am



Quoting Flexo (Reply 8):
Quoting Alessandro (Reply 7):
With the ditching in NYC, I start to wonder if fuel dumping should be implemented on the A320?

Why is that? I fail to see how that would have helped here!

Wouldn't fuel in the wings actually help the aircraft to float since fuel is lighter than the same volume of water?
 
Zuluaviator994
Posts: 319
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:50 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:30 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Wouldn't fuel in the wings actually help the aircraft to float since fuel is lighter than the same volume of water?

I think the plane still floated for a sufficient amount of time, and I doubt this will be needed a lot in the future (I'm not saying it won't happen again, but it's unlikely).
If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:18 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Wouldn't fuel in the wings actually help the aircraft to float since fuel is lighter than the same volume of water?

But the volume of air in the tanks is even lighter than the volume of fuel. I'm not sure how the vent system would handle it though...empty tanks would float higher initially but might not float for as long as full tanks.

However, I don't really see how dumping fuel would have helped in this case.

Tom.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:36 am



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 7):

With the ditching in NYC, I start to wonder if fuel dumping should be implemented on the A320?

Considering the situation in this case.it would have not helped irrespectively.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
citationjet
Posts: 2544
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:26 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:28 pm

According to Boeing Website the following aircraft have fuel jettison capability:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/faqs/fueldump.pdf

707 - yes
717 - no
720 - yes
727 - yes
737 - no
BBJ - no
747 - yes
757 - no
767-200/300 - **
767-400 - yes
777 - yes
787 - yes
DC-8 - yes
DC-10 - yes
MD-11 - yes
MD-80 - no
MD-90 - no

** Early models did not have fuel jettison capability, although airlines could install capability. Later models had jettison capability.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773,788.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:19 pm



Quoting Flexo (Reply 8):
Quoting Alessandro (Reply 7):
With the ditching in NYC, I start to wonder if fuel dumping should be implemented on the A320?

Why is that? I fail to see how that would have helped here!

More time to act since the gliding rate would´ve been better and better floating ability.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:33 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Wouldn't fuel in the wings actually help the aircraft to float since fuel is lighter than the same volume of water?

As Tdscanuck says, you have to compare the density of fuel with what would be there after dumping fuel, i.e. air.  Smile

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 14):
More time to act since the gliding rate would´ve been better and better floating ability.

At 3000 ft with no power from the engines, how much fuel could they have dumped before running out of height? One could argue that even thinking about dumping fuel might have wasted too many of those precious few seconds.
 
citationjet
Posts: 2544
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:26 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:12 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 15):
At 3000 ft with no power from the engines, how much fuel could they have dumped before running out of height? One could argue that even thinking about dumping fuel might have wasted too many of those precious few seconds.

Agreed. Also would you really want to dump jet fuel over Manhattan at 3,000 ft? The crew didn't even have time to hit the "ditch switch" which closes all of the valves, vents, etc in the aircraft before ditching.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773,788.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19819
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:15 pm

Agreed with Flexo. Fuel dumping is not needed on the narrowbodies

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 16):
Also would you really want to dump jet fuel over Manhattan at 3,000 ft?

I think that if it had been an option and the crew had deemed it a good idea, they would have dumped, even over Manhattan. This is not like fire bombing. The fuel doesn't come down in a big splash.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3915
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:43 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
I think that if it had been an option and the crew had deemed it a good idea, they would have dumped, even over Manhattan. This is not like fire bombing. The fuel doesn't come down in a big splash.

Indeed. Even if fuel dump had been available, the amount of fuel that could have been dumped in three minutes or so would have been inconsequential. Look at the size of the fuel dump pipes on airplanes that do have fuel jettison capability.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2844
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:26 am

Dumping fuel would have been the last thing on my mind in the 4 minutes of flight that they had.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Wouldn't fuel in the wings actually help the aircraft to float since fuel is lighter than the same volume of water?

Fuel has a density that is very close to water. That's one of the reasons it must be inspected for contamination, is susceptible to microbial growth and suspended ice crystals.

Quit playing armchair pilot. That crew did a fantastic job.
DMI
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:24 am



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 19):
Fuel has a density that is very close to water. That's one of the reasons it must be inspected for contamination, is susceptible to microbial growth and suspended ice crystals.

Quit playing armchair pilot. That crew did a fantastic job.

Well, since the option wasn´t there no point of think of it.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:26 am



Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 18):
Indeed. Even if fuel dump had been available, the amount of fuel that could have been dumped in three minutes or so would have been inconsequential. Look at the size of the fuel dump pipes on airplanes that do have fuel jettison capability.

Well, everything to improve your gliding ability is good or?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19819
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:01 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 21):
Well, everything to improve your gliding ability is good or?

Not if it adds workload which could be better used for other stuff.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:30 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 21):
Well, everything to improve your gliding ability is good or?

If you really need to ditch a few meters further down the Hudson.  Smile

And if you're thinking they could have made TET, for example, after dumping a little bit of fuel, well, you might be right... with hindsight. However, the crew only had seconds to make a decision. A lot of those seconds would have been wasted calculating how much fuel they could dump in the seconds available and then whether or not they could make TET having done that. It sounds a bit "iffy" to me but I'm not a pilot. They knew they could definitely ditch in the Hudson.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 22):
Not if it adds workload which could be better used for other stuff.

 checkmark  Given the choice of concentrating on getting down as safely as possible and concentrating on getting a few more meters' gliding during the few seconds available, I know which makes more sense to me.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:42 am



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 21):
Well, everything to improve your gliding ability is good or?

The additional weight of the jettison system could have been larger than the amount of fuel they could have dumped in that time.

Tom.
 
speedracer1407
Posts: 330
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:23 am



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 19):
Dumping fuel would have been the last thing on my mind in the 4 minutes of flight that they had.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Wouldn't fuel in the wings actually help the aircraft to float since fuel is lighter than the same volume of water?

Fuel has a density that is very close to water. That's one of the reasons it must be inspected for contamination, is susceptible to microbial growth and suspended ice crystals.

Quit playing armchair pilot. That crew did a fantastic job.

How does posing a question about the density of fuel have anything to do with being an armchair pilot?

What an odd response.
Dassault Mercure: the plane that has Boeing and Airbus shaking in their boots.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:10 am



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 19):
Fuel has a density that is very close to water.

It's not that close...fresh water is 8.33 lbs/gal while fuel is 6.7 (about 20% lighter). It's about 23% lighter than salt water. In large volumes, the weight difference is pretty large.

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 19):
That's one of the reasons it must be inspected for contamination, is susceptible to microbial growth and suspended ice crystals.

The reason you can't catch water by density is that the percentage is normally so small...1% water contamination (which is pretty bad) would only shift the overall fuel density by 0.2%, which is well inside the Jet-A specification for density.

Tom.
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:25 am



Quoting David L (Reply 23):

Given the choice of concentrating on getting down as safely as possible and concentrating on getting a few more meters' gliding during the few seconds available, I know which makes more sense to me.

Actually, a heavy airplane glides further which doesn't make sense; but true - years of glider flying and airline heavy jet operation is my experience. You have to begin descent sooner from altitude at higher weights than lower. Inertia and a higher best lift over drag speed is the reason. That's why competition sailplanes carry water ballast. Russ Farris
 
rwessel
Posts: 2448
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:47 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:39 am



Quoting Maxpower1954 (Reply 27):
Actually, a heavy airplane glides further which doesn't make sense; but true - years of glider flying and airline heavy jet operation is my experience. You have to begin descent sooner from altitude at higher weights than lower. Inertia and a higher best lift over drag speed is the reason. That's why competition sailplanes carry water ballast.

That's not exactly right. Adding ballast doesn't really improve your L/D curve, it mostly moves it to the right, so that your (basically unchanged) best L/D now happens at a higher speed. So you can fly the same distance, but in less time. Or make better penetration into a headwind.
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:30 pm

Yes, you are exactly right I oversimplified things there (and misstated the facts.)
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2397
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:46 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Wouldn't fuel in the wings actually help the aircraft to float since fuel is lighter than the same volume of water?

just to add ...lower stall speed at lowr weights
 
troubleshooter
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:22 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:46 pm

FAR 25.1001 defines the requirements for a FUEL JETTISON SYSTEM
No big miracle...
This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:57 pm

Here's one that can:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marc Hasenbein

 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:11 am



Quoting 474218 (Reply 32):
Here's one that can:

And another (B727):


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Robert M. Campbell

 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:38 pm



Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 1):
I believe an aircraft that cannot dump fuel has the ability to land with full fuel load.

That would be nice, but sometimes an a/c may have to deal w/an overweight landing inspection. A nuisance at best.  Wink
Living the American Dream
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:45 am



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 34):
That would be nice, but sometimes an a/c may have to deal w/an overweight landing inspection. A nuisance at best.

If an aircraft without a fuel dump system has to go to make an air return to the departure field due to a mechanical issue, or land short of the destination due to a medical emergency, or for any one of a number of other reasons you can bet they will make an overweight landing.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2260
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:22 am



Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 1):
I know a 762 cannot dump fuel

Ours can.
 
zappbrannigan
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:41 am

RE: Which Aircraft Can Dump Fuel?

Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:32 am



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 21):
Well, everything to improve your gliding ability is good or?

You have very little time in this type of situation. The time you do have must be used to make quick command decisions based on training an experience, and act on them without delay - it's not the type of situation that allows you to enter the hold and casually run some abnormal checklists.

The process of dumping an insignificant amount of fuel would simply eat up time - even if it's only 5 seconds - that is needed for those crucial decisions on accurately flying the aircraft to a landing area - which was done brilliantly. Not to mention that the negatives of dumping fuel at a low altitude over a populated area, and flying the aircraft to a potential crash whilst deliberately spraying fuel from it, probably outweigh the positives, for a reduction in weight equal to a few pax at best.

And I can guarantee the last thing our glorious captain was thinking as he approached the Hudson was "I wish I could get rid of 200kg of fuel, that might provide fractionally better floatation when this baby's bobbing around in the water".

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Rolls and 45 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos