CDreier
Topic Author
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:34 am

Speed Restrictions Below 10,00'?

Wed May 16, 2007 11:50 pm

FAR 91.117 - Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

------------------------------------------------

My question is whether a larger aircraft actually abides by this when departing a Class B airport (or any other) by holding IAS at 200 knots in the climb. Would someone please explain operations in terms of the FAR. In other words, say a B767, does it slow to 200 knots and operate at that speed when in Class B airspace while descending for landing - and does it hold the 200 knots after takeoff until out of the Class B airspace?

Thanks.
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Speed Restrictions Below 10,00'?

Thu May 17, 2007 12:27 am

You might want to check the 'similar threads' list below this screen.

Might have the answer.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
CDreier
Topic Author
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:34 am

RE: Speed Restrictions Below 10,00'?

Thu May 17, 2007 1:07 am

Thanks Jimbo. I did find something in one of the threads that possibly answers my question. That reading leads me to believe that a departing aircraft will remain within the Class B airspace (above any tiered floor) throughout the climb to 10,000' - thus the 200k restriction is not an issue? Again, my question wasn't / isn't about the 250k restriction, but rather, about the 200k restriction. Thanks.
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Speed Restrictions Below 10,00'?

Thu May 17, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting CDreier (Thread starter):
This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

You have answered your own question. The restriction doesn't apply. But, realistically, the aircraft will have departed with take off flaps and the reality is you need to clean up and then the min clean speed comes into play or 250KIAS, which ever is greater.
Fly fast, live slow
 
bond007
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Speed Restrictions Below 10,00'?

Thu May 17, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting CDreier (Thread starter):
In other words, say a B767, does it slow to 200 knots and operate at that speed when in Class B airspace while descending for landing - and does it hold the 200 knots after takeoff until out of the Class B airspace?

The answer is yes ...unless the minimum safe speed is more than 200kts, or ATC say otherwise. If not, it wouldn't be following the regs right? I think they are very clear.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4089
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Speed Restrictions Below 10,00'?

Thu May 17, 2007 1:26 am

If the pilot is familiar with the surrounding Class B airspace and the restriction of 200 KIAS I would say, yes they do comply either climbing or descending when below the floor.

I know from experience at IAH, days gone by before the new north runway opened in 2003 and the Class B redesigned for that runway and other modifications, large turbine powered aircraft would routinely be issued altitudes that could take them below a shelf of Class B airspace, some would question the speed, others would say they were slowing to 200 KIAS yet others refused the clearance which got interesting at times on the ole radio.  Smile

And then, as strange as it might seem, Class B charts are not things all pilots flying IFR review, especially if they are normally flying into or out of the primary airport of Class B airspace which would have the airspace down to the surface within a certain radius of that airport which would contain all the approach procedures. But ignorance of the airspace is not going to hold up in a violation in most cases.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
saab2000
Posts: 1220
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: Speed Restrictions Below 10,00'?

Thu May 17, 2007 1:30 am

The speed limit in Class B airspace is 250 knots. It is 200 knots below Class B. But airliners in the terminal area rarely are outside this, and if they are they are in Class E airspace, where the speed limit is 250 knots. Think of that proverbial 'upside down wedding cake' and you'll understand. The airspace is generally designed to keep larger airliner traffic inside the Class B airspace when in the terminal area and away from VFR traffic.

However....

Many airliners also depart from Class C and Class D airspace airports. In this case, the speed limit of 200 knots applies while in that airspace.

Keep in mind though that airliners climb at good rate (at least 2000 feet per minute initially) and are out of the airspace often before they get above 200 knots.

Clear as mud, huh?  Big grin
smrtrthnu
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4089
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Speed Restrictions Below 10,00'?

Thu May 17, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 3):
You have answered your own question. The restriction doesn't apply

Respectfully I have to disagree.

Quoting CDreier (Thread starter):
This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area.

Within Class B airspace area is the Class B itself....where the hierarchy regs win, Class B regulation outweigh the Class D airspace requirements. The area doesn't refer to being under a shelf of or being below the floor of Class B.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Speed Restrictions Below 10,00'?

Thu May 17, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 4):
unless the minimum safe speed is more than 200kts,

Sorry, I'm getting mixed up with 200 and 250....


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Speed Restrictions Below 10,00'?

Thu May 17, 2007 2:35 am

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...19E9A852566CF00614F49?OpenDocument

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 7):
Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 3):
You have answered your own question. The restriction doesn't apply

Respectfully I have to disagree.

In reality, it's a mute point, because on climb out, you'll never be above 200KIAS within 4 NM and on arrival you'll never be above 200KIAS within 4NM.

If you fly according to your company's SOP you will never bust any speed restrictions.
Fly fast, live slow
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4089
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Speed Restrictions Below 10,00'?

Thu May 17, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):
In reality, it's a mute point, because on climb out, you'll never be above 200KIAS within 4 NM and on arrival you'll never be above 200KIAS within 4NM.

If you fly according to your company's SOP you will never bust any speed restrictions.

There are some airports which aircraft opertate to and from that fall into this category. Quite often on approach or departure they end up beneath the floor of the Class B airspace, at times with an altitude restriction holding below the floor for a period of time due to traffic. It does happen quite often in the Houston area with aircraft departing airports other than IAH/HOU which have surface areas, IMO a good item to be versed on.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Speed Restrictions Below 10,00'?

Sat May 19, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):
If you fly according to your company's SOP you will never bust any speed restrictions.

Bingo. Different carriers have slightly different procedures in their FAA-approved ops specs. Conforming to them satisfies our operational requirements.
 
Bellerophon
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 10:12 am

RE: Speed Restrictions Below 10,00'?

Sat May 19, 2007 2:02 pm

PhilSquares

...In reality, it's a mute point, because on climb out, you'll never be above 200KIAS within 4 NM...

Sadly, that's probably true nowadays, but once upon a time, before Oct 2003.....  Sad

Best regards

Bellerophon

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