swiftski
Topic Author
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

Stages Of Emergency Landing

Wed May 30, 2007 3:22 am

... are there any? I'm assuming so. If so, how are they categorised/prioritised?

I can clarify what I mean if needed.

TIA
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Wed May 30, 2007 3:32 am

From a cabin perspective during a planned emergency landing...

Before the landing attempt, there is a TEST brief (Type of Emergency, Exits, Signals and Time Remaining). Some carriers use NITS instead.

Cabin crew then briefs passengers, selects able bodied pax, reseats them, does exit briefings, assigns buddies, reviews brace positions. They report back to the flight deck.

At around 200 ft (sometimes higher at different carriers), the flight crew will announce the brace command, such as "brace brace" or flash the seat belt sign.

Cabin crew will then start shouting, "BRACE, BRACE, STAY DOWN" or something like that. They keep shouting until the plane comes to a complete stop.

The plane comes to a complete stop, people start clapping, smiling, etc. The flight deck assesses the situation, and announces something like:
"Cabin Crew At Stations" (if there is a possibility of evacuation)
"Remain Seated, Remain Seated" (if there will be no evacuation)
"Evacuate, Evacuate, Evacuate" (if there is to be an evacuation and after certain parts of the evacuation checklist is complete. Some carriers use Easy Victor). If there is an evacuation, the evacuation alarm is also activated if the aircraft is equipped.

Cabin crew will follow the instructions of the flight crew, but if they see fire, smoke, water, etc. they can self-initiate an evacuation. They will start commanding,
"Release your seat belts and get out! Leave Everything! Come this way" etc.

Until all the pax are out.

Again each carrier is different with the announcements and commands but that is just a general idea.  Smile
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5524
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Wed May 30, 2007 4:16 am

My primary flight instructor said that any emergency landing that you walk away from is a beauty. Don't know exactly how that applies to the topic but I thought I'd throw it in. As to the topic, once a pilot declares an emergency ATC is supposed to give them whatever they want if at all possible. Everyone else is supposed to get out of the way. There are no categories involved; which actually does cause problems, such as the Avianca 707 that ran out of fuel trying to land at JFK. They requested expedited handling but never declared an emergency; many pilots are reluctant to do so because they don't feel that their situation is "really" an emergency. But it's like a light switch; either on or off.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
FredT
Posts: 2166
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 9:51 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Wed May 30, 2007 6:36 am

"Pan pan pan" and "mayday" could be considered two stages of an emergency...

@MarkHKG,
is the details of the brace position discussed these days? In the safety cards, they always show you to tuck your legs under your own seat. Experience shows that one of the large killers in crashes where the initial impact leaves survivors is flailing injuries (broken legs from the legs flying forward into the seat in front) which then prevent the pax from getting away from any ensuing post-crash fire.

To me as an engineer it seems that putting your feet forward would make more sense, to reduce the amount of flailing positive.

Rgds,
/Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Wed May 30, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting FredT (Reply 3):
is the details of the brace position discussed these days?

Yes, bracing positions are still instructed on during a planned emergency.

Quoting FredT (Reply 3):
To me as an engineer it seems that putting your feet forward would make more sense, to reduce the amount of flailing positive.

I can tell you 20 years ago the safety cards did in fact show that the feet should be placed forward, to the degree that it is underneath the seat in front of you. However, the consensus now is that the feet show be placed flat on the floor, with the feet slightly behind the knees.

Quoting FredT (Reply 3):
In the safety cards, they always show you to tuck your legs under your own seat.

The feet should not actually be under the seat. The rationale is that if the seat collapses, your feet could be caught.

Quoting FredT (Reply 3):
Experience shows that one of the large killers in crashes where the initial impact leaves survivors is flailing injuries (broken legs from the legs flying forward into the seat in front) which then prevent the pax from getting away from any ensuing post-crash fire.

Significant research was conducted after the Kegworth Air Disaster, and the UK CAA eventually adopted a revised version of the brace position. The key parts of the research did involve the legs, in that:
- Many femur fractures were due not to hitting the seat in front, but rather due to a hard bar that was under the front part of the seat the person was sitting on which the femur "rode" over during the impact sequence.
- If the feet was placed too far in front, the legs could strike the seat in front and result in injury.
- Placement of the feet on high-friction carpeting could reduce flailing.

In his CAA sanctioned research paper, Dr. Angus Wallace noted,
"If the limb was placed slightly behind a vertical line drawn through the knee axis in the braced position, no flailing occurred and no contact was made with the seat in front. In the unbraced upright position limbs flailed and contact was made with the seat in front."

I think you're absolutely right that leg injuries are the second most important thing (first being the head) for the brace position to protect. Sadly, the fact remains that the brace position is a compromise between the economics of a forward facing seat (instead of rear facing) and safety.

[Edited 2007-05-30 00:10:00]
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3544
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Wed May 30, 2007 7:31 am

Quite simply there are 2 types of emergency.

A "Pan Pan Pan" which basically means that there is a major prolem but it isn't life threatening. Engine failure after take off on a quad for example would probably result in a pan call or a low fuel situation would be start as a pan and then if the situation deteriorated, then it could be upgraded.

and

"Mayday Mayday Mayday" which also means there is a major problem and it is life threatening. Engine failure after take off on a twin would probably result in a mayday.

See this video for great example :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhZwsYtNDE

There is no such thing as a fuel emergency or a medical emergency from an ATC point of view. It is either a Pan or a Mayday.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:54 am

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Wed May 30, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 2):
They requested expedited handling but never declared an emergency; many pilots are reluctant to do so because they don't feel that their situation is "really" an emergency.

There is really no concensus with pilots I've talked to about when to declare an emergency. It's left so much up to the pilot to determine when the situation warrants it that in alot of minds it never does. We can always make it one more mile, fly through the situation, maintain control, ect. So many situations sit on the fence, one pilot will take it as an emergency, another will say nothing to control about it.

Quoting Swiftski (Thread starter):
how are they categorised/prioritised?

My priorities for good ol Cessna's...

1. Fly the plane.
2. Find a place to go. (to ditch or divert)
3. Fly the plane
4. attempt to fix problem. (restart engine, put out fire, ect)
5. Fly the plane
6. Tell someone about your problem
7. Fly the plane
8. Save the pax/myself. Bend the plane as needed. A new plane can always be found, destroy it if it will save pax.
9. Fly the plane
10. Evacuate, wait for help.

Too many pilots are lost in emergency situations because they drop the plane to fly the mic. Too many pilots are also lost because we are hesitant to declare an emergency when we need to. We all have different standards we all follow to determine what is an emergency, unfortunately sometimes our standards are too lax.
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
FlyingColours
Posts: 2332
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:13 am

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Thu May 31, 2007 8:53 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 4):
Significant research was conducted after the Kegworth Air Disaster, and the UK CAA eventually adopted a revised version of the brace position. The key parts of the research did involve the legs, in that:

A fair number of injuries occured when the floor collapsed which mean the seats infront displaced and dropped onto peoples legs, that was the main reason we adopted our current brace position which is the same as the one you mentioned (legs slightly apart, slightly back & feet flat on the ground).

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 1):
Before the landing attempt, there is a TEST brief (Type of Emergency, Exits, Signals and Time Remaining). Some carriers use NITS instead.

We used NITS, (Nature, Intentions, Time Remaining & Special Instructions) but dont forget TTI (Type, Time & Intentions) which I believe is still used at Air Atlanta.

AFAIK We would get the brace call at 500ft (at all my previous airlines, including AAi) and the brace commands do differ from airline to airline.

If there is an unplanned emergency (as in, we were on approach and something went wrong and now we can't even make the airport) we would shout "Bend Down Bend Down" (Islandsflug, AAi) or "Get Down Get Down", as everyone has probably forgotten what the brace position is. Unplanned also includes overruning the runway or coming down after takeoff too, basically something where we have not had time to prepare the cabin and passengers.

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 6):
8. Save the pax/myself. Bend the plane as needed. A new plane can always be found, destroy it if it will save pax.

I wonder what my CFI would say if I told him that  Wink

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:09 am

OK... here are some cuts and pastes... *grin*

FLIGHT ATTENDANT EMERGENCY CALL
6 CHIMES ON ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANT STATIONS
• F/A1 SHALL IMMEDIATELY REPORT TO THE FLIGHT DECK
• CAPTAIN SHALL GIVE A SHORT BRIEFING TO F/A 1 CONCERNING:
• TYPE OF EMERGENCY ( TERRAIN / DITCHING )
• EXITS TO BE USED / BLOCK
• SIGNAL OF COMMUNICATION TO BE USED
• TIME REMAINING UNTIL IMPACT:
- WHO WILL DO THE ANNOUNCEMENT (PIC or F/A 1)
- SYNCHRONIZE WATCHES

PRIOR TO INITIATE THE APPROACH / THROUGH 1000 FEET
FLIGHT DECK TO F/A ANNOUNCEMENT “EMERGENCY STATION”

OR
1 (ONE) TIME FLASHING OF “FASTEN SEAT BELT” SIGN
ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANT SHALL IMMEDIATELY TAKE THEIR EMERGENCY STATIONS.

PRIOR TO IMPACT THROUGH / 500 FT
FLIGHT DECK ANNOUNCEMENT TO F/A “BRACE FOR IMPACT” OR 3 (THREE) TIMES FLASHING OF “FASTEN SEAT BELT” SIGNS
ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANT SHALL IMMEDIATELY TAKE THEIR BRACE POSITION
ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANT SHALL SHOULT TO THE PAX:
“EMERGENCY – BEND DOWN – HOLD YOUR KNEES”

UNPLANNED EMERGENCY

PRIOR TO IMPACT (WHEN APPROPRIATE)
FLIGHT DECK ANNOUNCEMENT TO F/A “BRACE FOR IMPACT” OR 3 (THREE) TIMES FLASHING OF “FASTEN SEAT BELT” SIGNS
ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANT SHALL IMMEDIATELY TAKE THEIR BRACE POSITION
ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANT SHALL SHOULT TO THE PAX:
“EMERGENCY – BEND DOWN – HOLD YOUR KNEES”

AFTER A REJECTED TAKE OFF OR ON THE GROUND EMERGENCY (WHEN THE AIRPLANE IS COMPLETELY STOPPED)
CAPTAIN TO F/A ANNOUNCEMENT:
“FLIGHT ATTENDANT AND PASSENGERS, KEEP YOUR SEAT, STANDBY FOR MY COMMAND”
ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANT AND PASSENGER SHALL REMAIN SEATED AND WAIT FOR FURTHER COMMAND FROM THE CAPTAIN


EITHER


WHEN EVACUATE IS NOT REQUIRED
CAPT TO F/A ANNOUNCEMENT:
“FLIGHT ATTENDANT AND PASSENGERS, REMAIN SEATED”
• F/A1 SHALL REPORT TO THE FLIGHT DECK FOR FURTHER INSTRUCTION FROM THE CAPTAIN

OR

WHEN EVACUATE IS REQUIRED
CAPTAIN SHALL ACTIVATE THE EVACUATION SIGNAL AND ANNOUNCE THROUGH
THE P/A: “EVACUATE – EVACUATE – EVACUATE”
ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANT SHALL INITIATE PAX. EVACUATION THROUGH THE APPROPRIATE EXITS.

----
EVAC CoMMANDS:
NORMAL DOOR:
LAND: Emergency – Open Seatbelt – Leave Everything – Come this way – Hurry – Jump and slide.
DITCH/PLANNED: Emergency – Open Seatbelt – Leave everything – Do not inflate – Come this way – Hurry – Inflate life vest here – Jump.
DITCH/UNPLANNED: Emergency – Open Seatbelt – Leave everything – Shoes Off – Take your life vest under your seat – Put it on – Do not inflate – Come this way – Hurry – Inflate life vest here – Jump.

WING:
LAND: NONE
DITCH/PLANNED: Emergency – Open Seatbelt – Leave everything – Do not inflate – Come this way – Hurry - One leg first – Then your head.
DITCH/UNPLANNED: Emergency – Open Seatbelt – Leave everything – Shoes Off – Take your life vest under your seat – Put it on – Do not inflate – Come this way – Hurry – One leg first – Then your head

CLOSED EXIT:
DITCH/PLANNED: Emergency – Open Seatbelt – Leave everything – Do not inflate – No exit here – Go another exit
DITCH/UNPLANNED: Emergency – Open Seatbelt – Leave everything – Shoes Off – Take your life vest under your seat – Put it on – Do not inflate – No exit here – Go Another Exit

--------------------

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Spruit
Posts: 367
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:34 am

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 5):
There is no such thing as a fuel emergency or a medical emergency from an ATC point of view. It is either a Pan or a Mayday

Am I right in thinking this only applies to UK Air Law?

Aren't fuel emergencies and the like valid calls in other countries?

Spru!
E=Mc2
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Swiftski (Thread starter):
. are there any? I'm assuming so. If so, how are they categorised/prioritised?

I can clarify what I mean if needed.



Quoting Spruit (Reply 9):
Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 5):
There is no such thing as a fuel emergency or a medical emergency from an ATC point of view. It is either a Pan or a Mayday

Am I right in thinking this only applies to UK Air Law?

Aren't fuel emergencies and the like valid calls in other countries?

Spru!

There is no such thing as a "fuel emergency". It's somewhat similar to being "almost pregnant". You either have an emergency or you don't. Now you can tactfully try to convey your fuel situation to the controller, but they're under no obligation to do anything.

In commercial ops, if you are getting a little tight on your fuel and are worried (I did not say you were into your reserves or anything like that) you can usually speak with dispatch and they can coordinate with ATC a swap. One of your company's aircraft can get vectored while you get in. However, if you're really concerned with your fuel state then you have no real option but to declare an emergency.

As far as ranking an emeregency, again, you either have one or you don't. Clearly you can convey your problem to give people on the ground a general idea of what your problem is but you don't have to get too technical as that will usually muddy the waters.
Fly fast, live slow
 
DrDeke
Posts: 807
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:13 am

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 5):

See this video for great example :-

OT, but what is the deal with the cyclic puffs of flame and smoke from the engine after the bird ingestion? Compressor stalls?

DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
SilverComet
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:04 am

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 5):
Engine failure after take off on a twin would probably result in a mayday.

No, it still results in a PAN. Twins are certified for single engine ops and the situation isn't life threatening. On the other hand, an uncontained fire would result in a mayday. Or having only your final fuel reserves (30min holding for turbines) left in the tanks.

 twocents 
 
User avatar
flashmeister
Posts: 2685
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting SilverComet (Reply 12):
No, it still results in a PAN. Twins are certified for single engine ops and the situation isn't life threatening.

In the ThomsonFly example (see YouTube link above), they clearly called Mayday right off the bat, not PAN first.
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:52 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 8):
LAND: NONE

Your carrier doesn't have any evacuation commands for the overwing exit? What happens if there is a deadheading flight attendant in the exit row...do they just evacuate or assist with the evacuation? On many carriers I am aware of, they do have commands for the overwing, i.e. "Out of my way (push away the pax, open exit) EXIT, LEG, BODY, LEG, follow the arrows, jump! )" or "Step out, foot first".

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 7):
We would get the brace call at 500ft (at all my previous airlines, including AAi) and the brace commands do differ from airline to airline.

I am aware of at least one carrier that does the call 2 minutes before landing...could you imagine staying hunched over in the brace position for that long?!  Smile People will want to get up to look around...particularly dangerous if the plane has not landed yet!

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 7):
"Bend Down Bend Down"

Variants I have heard are, "Grab your ankles", "Heads down, feet back", "Hold your knees".
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
FredT
Posts: 2166
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 9:51 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:07 pm

MarkHKG, FlyingColours,
thank you. That was enlightening and interesting. I need to find that UK CAA Kegworth study/report to read.

On a sidenote, I was writing my previous post in a hotel room. On the flight back yesterday I had a look at the braced position as depicted in the safety card on the A320, and it showed the feet well forward.

The crash injury modes are discussed to a surprisingly small degree in this industry I think. I guess we're all engineers and most engineers seem to be less interested in "soft" problems than in the hard tech issues, which is a shame. I also do believe the apparent lack of interest is in part due to the industry not wanting to scare payload away.

Best regards,
/Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:12 pm

Quoting FredT (Reply 15):
On the flight back yesterday I had a look at the braced position as depicted in the safety card on the A320, and it showed the feet well forward.

Interesting. Which air carrier did you fly on? Was it a UK carrier?

Quoting FredT (Reply 15):
I need to find that UK CAA Kegworth study/report to read.

Dr. Wallace's report is actually buried in this large document:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP583.pdf
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:12 pm

MarkHKG,
It's not my carrier... *grin* Though am relatively exposed to its policies.
The company policy is that a deadheading crew member be seated near the back. However, in a planned emergency, they shall be assigned an overwing exit row duties. If a whole crewset is carried while deadheading, then it will be two on the overwing exit row, and 1 on the last row, 1 on the first row. They automatically become designated ABPs to assist.

This is however, not stated in their crew emergency briefing cards, only in their FA Manuals. The quotation I made above are from the crew emergency briefing cards, which are carried separately from the manual... and is carried separately for review purposes in an emergency... the whole thing's treated as a memory item... the planning however, is not.

For the overwings, the pax are briefed and given the option (or forced) to exchange if they are unable to take the responsibility of the exit. In a planned emergency, in the time remaining, this is again done... and then pax is rebriefed in greater detail (this is again done on 1st and last rows of the exit in case of post impact crew incapacity).

Here we still use the "one leg first then your head" command... part of the reason is in an emergency all commands are bilingual, and the "one leg first then your head" is much clearer in Indonesian than "Out of my way (push away the pax, open exit) EXIT, LEG, BODY, LEG, follow the arrows, jump! )" or "Step out, foot first"."... Several cabin instructors have said in test trials and regulatory evac demos, they have tried other combinations of commands, unfortunately, it created more confusion rather than clarity... so they reverted to the "one leg first then your head" for the overwings.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
FlyingColours
Posts: 2332
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:13 am

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:16 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 10):
However, if you're really concerned with your fuel state then you have no real option but to declare an emergency.

Was there any truth to the story of the QF 742 which was inbound to LHR from the far east and having avoided stopping for fuel in AMS tried to declare a fuel emergency to get down quickly but ATC wouldn't have any of it and he ended up declaring a Mayday. Or was that a Concorde flight coming home with some excess time at Mach 2? My memory is fuzzing up  Smile

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 14):
Your carrier doesn't have any evacuation commands for the overwing exit?

I don't believe mine did either, I know at Islandsflug in a pre planned ditching the R2 crewmember (and L2X if carried) would remove the slides from the doors of L2 & R2 and relocate to an overwing exit each with the slide pack, so they could inflate it off the wing. Remember the L2 & R2 exits are likley to be unusable in a ditching on the 737 series, so its best not to open them even if the water level is lower.

Back to overwings, During boarding we would brief the passengers seated at the overwing exit. The brief included when to open, hazards, how to open and how to exit.

As far as ABP (Able Bodied Passengers) go, the best you can get would be fellow Cabin Crew or Pilots, Military personnel, Emergency workers, the ones you won't want by the door (who may be legal to sit by the exit but in a preplanned emergency they need to move) are guys & gals with the family on the row behind because as soon as we stop they are probably going to help their kids rather than open the door.

To brief a passenger on how to open the door you would tell them what "you" are going to do, (When I shout "open your seatbelts come this way, leave everything behind, Stay calm" - You & you will open your seatbelts and stand here and block the exit until I have opened it and the slide has inflated, then get out and help pull people off at the bottom) - that's a simplified version. You would also let them know what to do if you become incapacitated, let them feel the door handle and touch the door as you show them the viewing window to check for hazards, tell them that once the door is opened they need to remove you from your seat and throw you down first so you don't block the exit, then show them how your seatbelt unfastens. Then ask them if they are cool with that  Wink

I know when I was going over my Doors 3 briefing on the 757 I would show the folks on L3 how to open that door (as there is no crewmember at that exit), then I would show the folks at R3 how to open the door (some other crews do that too for peace of mind) along with how to open my seatbelt and "you gotta throw me out first otherwise my big head will be in the way". Then again those L3/R3 exits are small and a crewseat really will block the exit (depending on the seat placment, some aircraft have a single AFT facing seat closer to the Isle, some have it right next to the exit and some have a Double AFT facing one which takes up tons of room. Still its very cozy and if you are lucky enough to have a nice bunch of girls going on holiday say on row 31 you may never want to stand up  Smile

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:16 pm

Mandala, thanks for the very interesting post. I am always interested about the situation for international carriers, particularly since it's a challenge to be shouting bilingual commands in an emergency!
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
FredT
Posts: 2166
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 9:51 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:19 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 16):
Interesting. Which air carrier did you fly on? Was it a UK carrier?

Nope, t'was SpanAir this time around. Made some beancounter happy I hope.

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 16):
Dr. Wallace's report is actually buried in this large document:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP583.pdf

Thank's a lot! That one goes straight into my 'interesting reading for rainy days or long flights' folder! Much appreciated.
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:41 pm

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 18):
I know at Islandsflug in a pre planned ditching the R2 crewmember (and L2X if carried) would remove the slides from the doors of L2 & R2 and relocate to an overwing exit each with the slide pack, so they could inflate it off the wing.

Actually, thinking about this harder, the only ditching command I aware of for an overwing is, "Take this rope, attach it to the hook on the wing, step out, foot first, inflate your vest, move away." This was in reference to the ditching line, which is a surprise to many exit row pax.  Smile

I think a few carriers, like EasyJet, prefer the overwing exits on their a/c instead of even the forward doors during a ditching. Which surprises me since I would have thought it would be good to get the Door 1 slides as flotation devices.

Quoting FredT (Reply 20):
Nope, t'was SpanAir this time around.

If this is the brace position you saw: http://safety.mania.ru/img/spanair_md87_2.jpg
That is actually the brace positions recommended by the US FAA, albeit a while back. They are using graphics that are quite old. (The card is an MD-87...) The updated positions can be seen at:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/commerce/circulars/AC0155_att.htm

Here, feet are not placed under the seat in front.
Although this is from Transport Canada, the US FAA follows the same recommendations.
I would also point out that the only real difference between the US and UK is that the UK CAA recommends a different hand/arm position than the FAA does.
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
FlyingColours
Posts: 2332
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:13 am

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:47 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 19):
Mandala, thanks for the very interesting post. I am always interested about the situation for international carriers, particularly since it's a challenge to be shouting bilingual commands in an emergency!

Indeed  Smile

I remember last year we were operating a flight for XLA who's aircraft went tech the day before, we were flying from somewhere in Spain (may have been REU - I'll check my log) but we had a few Spanish nationals onboard who didn't speak English and were obviously concerned if this was their flight (considering they were expecting an Excel aircraft), since none of us could speak much spanish we played the intro to the Saftey Video in Spanish.

I noticed that when I flew KL to AMS last year all of the PA's were in Dutch and English, I assume lots of scheduled carriers is like this? How are PA's carried out on other carriers (LCC and Scheduled). In all my experiance we have only stuck to English announcements and drills, although the airline was looking for crews who could speak fluently in other languages (for future foreign subcharters).

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:02 pm

Hrmm... interestingly, the information I have about KLM is that they only use, "Emergency, Open Seat Belt, Evacuate" in English. Apparently this did cause confusion on at least one evacuation involving Spanish speaking pax:

http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/0...76847DC92/13891/2004_070_A_ENG.pdf
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
FlyingColours
Posts: 2332
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:13 am

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:10 pm

Thanks Mark, I'm just downloading that report. Looks interesting.

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
FredT
Posts: 2166
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 9:51 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:41 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 21):
If this is the brace position you saw: http://safety.mania.ru/img/spanair_md87_2.jpg

Indeed it was, albeit different graphics.

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 21):

That is actually the brace positions recommended by the US FAA, albeit a while back. They are using graphics that are quite old. (The card is an MD-87...) The updated positions can be seen at:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/commerce/circulars/AC0155_att.htm

Here, feet are not placed under the seat in front.
Although this is from Transport Canada, the US FAA follows the same recommendations.

Again, thank you. It is good to see that there is work being done in this field, even though I do not see it.
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
schooner
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 10:29 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting SilverComet (Reply 12):
No, it still results in a PAN

It [email protected]@dy well wont if it happens to me! I think a loss of 50% of your available thrust warrants a MAYDAY call. Would you only upgrade it to a MAYDAY if you lost the other donk?

Cheers.
Untouched and Alive
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:54 am

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 5):
Engine failure after take off on a twin would probably result in a mayday.



Quoting SilverComet (Reply 12):
No, it still results in a PAN.



Quoting Schooner (Reply 26):
It bl@@dy well wont if it happens to me! I think a loss of 50% of your available thrust warrants a MAYDAY call.

Perfect example of...

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 6):
There is really no concensus with pilots I've talked to about when to declare an emergency.

You both are correct. One of you would use Pan, the other Mayday, and maybe someone flying a twin with a gazillion hours in the type would say nothing except they want to turn around and land. It's up to the pilot to decide what is an emergency in their eyes at that particular moment.
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
schooner
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 10:29 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:22 am

Maybe I'm just a wuss and dont have balls of steel.......
Untouched and Alive
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5524
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting Schooner (Reply 28):
Maybe I'm just a wuss and dont have balls of steel.......

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots....
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
VHXLR8
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:58 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:42 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 21):
Actually, thinking about this harder, the only ditching command I aware of for an overwing is, "Take this rope, attach it to the hook on the wing, step out, foot first, inflate your vest, move away." This was in reference to the ditching line, which is a surprise to many exit row pax.  

At QF, ovewing exits are a secondary means of escape (not used until absolotely necessary) on all aircraft EXCEPT the 737 800.
Initial ditching commands on all aircraft are "fit your lifejacket, located under your seat, high heels off"
once raft is inflated, primare door commands are "evacuate evacuate evacuate, unfasten sealtbelts, come this way, form one/two lines, pull tags, step into the raft, move the back, sit down!" yes, it's a mouthfull  Smile

At secondary exit (such as overwing, non 737 800), the commands are "evacutate evacuate evacuate, unfasten seatbelts, move forward/back, move forward back" (directing of course to the useable exits.

As for the overwings on a 737 800, R2 and R2A will launch 2 rafts; whilst there are no specific commands, it is the their responsibility to direct the pax as to what to do, such as "step into the raft, hold it close to the wing"; then the evac commands are the same as for useable doors.

You can see why crew hate doing the ditching day at recurrent training  Smile
 
CoolGuy
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:13 am

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:28 pm

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 8):
OK... here are some cuts and pastes... *grin*

FLIGHT ATTENDANT EMERGENCY CALL
6 CHIMES ON ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANT STATIONS
• F/A1 SHALL IMMEDIATELY REPORT TO THE FLIGHT DECK
• CAPTAIN SHALL GIVE A SHORT BRIEFING TO F/A 1 CONCERNING:

Where did you get all that from?
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:02 pm

CoolGuy,
Someone's manual *grin*... Several F/As asked for a small card containing certain parts of the manual for their own quick reference in emergencies.

For us reading that, at least we know if on some carriers we suddenly hear 6 chimes, something's going on!

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:42 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 32):
For us reading that, at least we know if on some carriers we suddenly hear 6 chimes, something's going on!

Actually, for most of the carriers I have studied, it is typically a PA announcement that says, "Will the SCCM please report to the flight deck immediately?" . This is the emergency "alert" which requires all flight attendants to report to their stations and pick up the interphone to await a briefing after the chief purser/SCCM/Inflight manager finishes getting their briefing from the flight deck.
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Stages Of Emergency Landing

Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:17 am

Quote:
This is the emergency "alert" which requires all flight attendants to report to their stations and pick up the interphone to await a briefing after the chief purser/SCCM/Inflight manager finishes getting their briefing from the flight deck.

Yeah I know... but some 732s here are so old that they don't have a proper intercom so everything is communicated through the cabin chime... for emergencies like the 6 chimes, the F/A1 goes into the cockpit to get the briefing while the F/A would clean up cabin as quickly as possible and get the briefing when the F/A1 finishes.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos