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SBBRTech
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Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:45 am

I read an article about the Dreamliner saying that Boeing prefers using the classic flight yokes ´cos pilots are more familiar with that...
I was wondering: besides Airbuses, are there other civilian a/c that use the so-called "joysticks" ?
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Ceph
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:49 am

Cirrus? I think the SR-22 is equipped with "sidesticks"
 
GRIVely
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:57 am

All Cirrus models (SR20 and SR22) have sidesticks. So do Lancairs. Can't say they are enormously better than a conventional yoke from a pilot's perspective but sidesticks are easy to use and quite comfortable. However, I am seriously left handed which makes it awkward to try to write down things while handflying my SR20. Seems ATC always wants to give you complicated information at the same time you are climbing, descending, or turning. I have gotten better at writing right handed but sometimes I can't read it myself. In a Cirrus, like most glass cockpit aircraft, you spend a lot of time on autopilot so the left handed challenge isn't insurmountable.


the GRIV
 
atct
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:23 am

"Joysticks" arent so common, now "Sticks" are very common. (As in a stick coming up from the floor between your legs).

The Boeing/McD C-17 Globemaster III is also a joystick.

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Starlionblue
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:58 am

Quoting SBBRTech (Thread starter):
I read an article about the Dreamliner saying that Boeing prefers using the classic flight yokes ´cos pilots are more familiar with that...

I think they use them because that's what the customers asked for. I'm pretty sure if 90% of the customers had wanted a sidestick Boeing would have mounted a sidestick. With feedback and servos of course.  Wink

If nothing else, a small sidestick saves a lot of weight.

Quoting ATCT (Reply 3):
The Boeing/McD C-17 Globemaster III is also a joystick.

Center mounted though.
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pilotpip
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:08 pm

I wouldn't really call the control in a Cirrus a true "Sidestick". It's more like a side yoke. It traverses in and out just like a yoke where the side stick on the Columbia rotates around like a true stick. Diamond aircraft also have a stick.

I've flown traditional yokes, sticks, sidesticks, the side yoke, and the bicycle handlebars (ERJ). With the exception of the ERJ I've flown from both seats with all of the control styles. It's not a big thing. Yeah, not having anything obstrucitng your view of the panel is nice but you know what, my body can pivot around to see stuff. You're rarely using two hands on the controls anyway because one is on the throttles/thrust levers anyway. You guys make way too much of a big deal out of this control philosophy thing.
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Pihero
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:25 pm

Dassault went for the sidestick and full envelope protection in their
So will Bombardier with the next CRJ.
Seems that the concept is catching.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 2):
However, I am seriously left handed which makes it awkward to try to write down things while handflying my SR20.

My problem when in the left seat of a SR22 or DA40....I'm a rightie, so flying a stick with my left hand is akward when you consider the stick time I had previous to that was in the J-3/PT-17/T-28/T-34/Yak-52....all with left hand throttle and right hand stick.....but like anything else, you get used to it with enough practice.

DeltaGuy
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FBU 4EVER!
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:22 pm

Had absolutely no problems converting from central yoke (MD-80) to sidestick (A330/340).Problem was where to put your right hand when V1 was called. And finally,with the sidestick out on your side,there's a table that extends in front of you,enabling you to have your inflight meals in a dignified manner!
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SlamClick
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:13 am

"Joy" sticks?

What's next? Air pockets?

Nobody in aviation ever called them joysticks. That is a video gamer word.

The big stick mounted on the floor of fighters, cropdusters and a few other cool planes is just a stick.
The one on the side is called a sidestick.

The other device is a yoke.
Not a steering wheel.

We don't "drive" airplanes.

We don't "take the Cleveland run"

Maybe that is worthy of a thread of its own: The phony "lingo" that outsiders put in our mouths in movies etc.
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nucsh
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:28 am

Diamond's aircraft have center sticks

Makes 'em much more fun to fly
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bond007
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 9):

Nobody in aviation ever called them joysticks. That is a video gamer word.

Ooooh no ... unless they had X-boxes in 1910 !!!

“In order that he shall not blunder inadvertently into the air, the central lever — otherwise the ‘cloche’, or joy-stick is tied well forward”.

Written by the first man to land on the Isle of Wight ... holding his joy-stick  Smile


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Starlionblue
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 7):
My problem when in the left seat of a SR22 or DA40....I'm a rightie, so flying a stick with my left hand is akward when you consider the stick time I had previous to that was in the J-3/PT-17/T-28/T-34/Yak-52....all with left hand throttle and right hand stick.....but like anything else, you get used to it with enough practice.

Even with a yoke, the left seater should hold it with the left hand in most situations. Not much different from a stick.

Quoting FBU 4EVER! (Reply 8):
Problem was where to put your right hand when V1 was called.

Grab your crotch!!!  Wink Seriously though, how about your lap.

Quoting FBU 4EVER! (Reply 8):
And finally,with the sidestick out on your side,there's a table that extends in front of you,enabling you to have your inflight meals in a dignified manner!

True, but as I have said before one can appreciate Boeing's difficulties. The Airbus tray is certified for the weight of a French flight attendant. Boeing would have to certify a tray for the weight of an American flight attendant, with all the increased structural demands that would entail.
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2H4
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 5):
and the bicycle handlebars (ERJ)

You should attach some streamers and maybe a bell sometime. Better yet, upload a photo of the setup to the database.


2H4

Intentionally Left Blank
 
pilotpip
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 13):

You should attach some streamers and maybe a bell sometime. Better yet, upload a photo of the setup to the database.


2H4

I'm sure it's been done. You could probably get a good picture of it in a Hawker. The embraer's yoke is much larger. Really makes a good crosswind landing a studying in leg avoidance.
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SlamClick
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):
Ooooh no ... unless they had X-boxes in 1910 !!!

They didn't have airplanes either. They had "flying machines" or possibly "aeroplanes" and they feared hitting an "air pocket" or getting into the dreaded "tailspin."

However, within the memory of people still living, it is a stick if attached to an airplane.
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Jetlagged
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15):
They didn't have airplanes either. They had "flying machines" or possibly "aeroplanes"

Hey, we still have "aeroplanes" this side of the pond.  Smile

As for the history of the term joystick, I'm afraid it may have something to do with a slang term for something else that's found between a pilots legs.  alert 
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SlamClick
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 16):
Hey, we still have "aeroplanes" this side of the pond.

Ahh yes. Jolly old England and its quaint, cobblstone language.  Smile
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SlamClick
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:50 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 16):
something else

Had a college class taught by a former Naval aviator (PBYs) who had a friend who was currently a cropduster. One day he was relating an accident that had befallen his friend. The hapless pilot, it seemed, had installed a rubber grip on top the stick of his airplane and while pulling up at the end of one pass across the field, the rubber grip came off the stick. His plane nosed down, struck the ground and flopped over on its back, out for the season. He was not hurt but did suffer some loss here.

The good professor could not understand why we were laughing so at his friend's misfortune. He was sitting on a high stool in front of us relating the story and pantomiming putting "this rubber thing" on "his stick" unaware that he was describing one thing while his class, every last Beavis & Butthead of us were picturing something else.
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mrocktor
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:08 am

There is absolutely no reason not to use a side stick, unless you need the mechanical advantage. With the prevalence of FBW, sidesticks will prevail in commercial aviation. Boeing's solution is, in my opinion, non-sensical. Basically only a "we're not following Airbus" thing. The whole "pilots prefer a yoke" thing is hogwash.
 
2H4
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:20 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 19):
The whole "pilots prefer a yoke" thing is hogwash.

Perhaps, but the whole "customers prefer a yoke" certainly isn't. If I'm not mistaken, Boeing explored the possibility of using sidesticks and presented the idea to airlines. The airlines told Boeing what they want, and Boeings continue to come with yokes.


2H4

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Jetlagged
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:43 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 20):
Perhaps, but the whole "customers prefer a yoke" certainly isn't. If I'm not mistaken, Boeing explored the possibility of using sidesticks and presented the idea to airlines. The airlines told Boeing what they want, and Boeings continue to come with yokes.

The point is, though, that those same customers do not demand Airbus replace the sidestick with a yoke. For Boeing to fit sidesticks would have required some back-tracking on some of their arguments against them and the Airbus philosophy in general.

Both A and B control philosophies work, neither is wrong or less safe.
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2H4
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 21):
Both A and B control philosophies work, neither is wrong or less safe.

I hope I didn't imply otherwise. I was simply pointing out that the folks paying for the airplanes have opinions that matter.


2H4

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Jetlagged
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 22):
I hope I didn't imply otherwise. I was simply pointing out that the folks paying for the airplanes have opinions that matter.

No, I didn't think you had. However I suspect if you put those same airline executives in a room with Airbus people they would probably come out thinking sidesticks were best. In other words both arguments are equally persuasive.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 19):
The whole "pilots prefer a yoke" thing is hogwash.

How do you explain Embraer?
DMI
 
9VSIO
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 9):
"Joy" sticks?

I've always used "if it goes into the floor and the whole thing moves, it's a stick, but if only parts of it move, then it's a joy stick"
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tdscanuck
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 19):
There is absolutely no reason not to use a side stick, unless you need the mechanical advantage. With the prevalence of FBW, sidesticks will prevail in commercial aviation. Boeing's solution is, in my opinion, non-sensical.

Until relatively recently, there was a reason not to use a sidestick: you couldn't get the autopilot tracking right.

For leverage reasons, you can't have a sidestick on a commercial airliner unless its FBW. FBW has no inherent autopilot tracking so you need to either add it back in with actuators or forget it entirely. Airbus went the latter route. Boeing, while not so adamant that pilots absolutely wanted a yoke, was adamant that they wanted autopilot tracking. The 777 was right on the cusp but Boeing felt that they wouldn't be able to get the quality and reliability of actuators into a sidestick.

With the 787, they've said that they could do it but they're selling airlines on the flexibility of a mixed 777/787 fleet, so they pretty much had to go with yokes on the 787 to make that pitch.

Had the 777 been built a few years later, we might see Boeing going all sidestick on their widebodies now.

Tom.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 25):
but if only parts of it move, then it's a joy stick"

Except that the people who manufacture planes with this device and the people who fly planes with this device and the people who maintain planes with this device ALL call it a sidestick.

I have never heard ANY person with any connection whatever to the real world of airplanes call it a "joy" stick. I have seen any number of them grit their teeth when some noob does, however.

But suit yourself.
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9VSIO
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:19 am

I also forgot to add "when mounted in the middle". I was under the impression that the stick in the C-17 only started halfway up?
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SlamClick
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 28):
I was under the impression that the stick in the C-17 only started halfway up?

Actually that is quite common, and has been for decades in military aircraft. I can think of several that hinge fore-aft for elevator control at the base, then hinge laterally for roll control at about mid-stick.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Suresh A. Atapattu


Not real obvious but that is the case in this photo. Hinged in about the middle.
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SlamClick
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 28):

BTW what does your signature mean?
Seems to lose a bit in the importation process.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 30):

BTW what does your signature mean?

Level 60 used to be the highest level possible for a World of Warcraft character (the cap has since been raised to 70). I guess Mr 9VSIO was just amused at the non sequitur. My signature is a bit more explicit about World of Warcraft.
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bond007
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
I have never heard ANY person with any connection whatever to the real world of airplanes call it a "joy" stick. I have seen any number of them grit their teeth when some noob does, however.

But suit yourself.

We can argue this, but the truth is that it was called a joystick and it was called a stick ... whether we like it or not. Sure it got changed over the years, and from country to country, and from manual links to FBW etc. etc.

BTW, I wasn't making my quote up ... it was from a 1910 diary.

Hey, I call it a stick ... but it sure was called a joystick by pilots way back.


Jimbo
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SlamClick
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:00 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 32):
... but it sure was called a joystick by pilots way back.

Yep. One of my early instructors told me that they "used to" call it that. As late as 1966 though, he still talked about the "rudder bar" in the plane we were flying. I assure you they were pedals, not a bar. Hell, they even had brakes! (unlike the Jennies he'd originally instructed in)
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bond007
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 9):
Nobody in aviation ever called them joysticks. That is a video gamer word.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
I have never heard ANY person with any connection whatever to the real world of airplanes call it a "joy" stick.

C'mon .... now you're just trying to humor me  Smile

Did they really have flying instructors back in 1966?? I thought they just gave you a copy of "Joystick and Rudder" and let you loose. Solo on your first flight  Wink


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9VSIO
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:58 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 31):
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 30):

BTW what does your signature mean?

Level 60 used to be the highest level possible for a World of Warcraft character (the cap has since been raised to 70). I guess Mr 9VSIO was just amused at the non sequitur. My signature is a bit more explicit about World of Warcraft.

haha, yes indeed. It seemed rather surreal that I would be asked that. I seem to forget at times that the older ones also play WoW. His question kinda popped outta nowhere - I only said I played video games!
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mrocktor
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:55 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 20):
Boeing explored the possibility of using sidesticks and presented the idea to airlines. The airlines told Boeing what they want, and Boeings continue to come with yokes.

That is their spin. In truth, something as simple as the age profile of the "customers" (read: airlines' chief pilots) can explain the apparent yoke preference. And that is excluding the possibility that Boeing creatively interpreted the data.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 21):
The point is, though, that those same customers do not demand Airbus replace the sidestick with a yoke.

Exactly.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 21):
Both A and B control philosophies work, neither is wrong or less safe.



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 22):
I hope I didn't imply otherwise. I was simply pointing out that the folks paying for the airplanes have opinions that matter.

You were perfectly clear 2H4, but on this forum sometimes it is important to stress what Jetlagged said - since not everyone has as much common sense.

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 24):
How do you explain Embraer?

Mechanical controls.
 
speedracer1407
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 36):
Mechanical controls.

Er, no, FBW controls in the case of EMB 170-195.
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mrocktor
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting Speedracer1407 (Reply 37):
Er, no, FBW controls in the case of EMB 170-195.

The ailerons are hydromechanic. Don't ask me why.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:50 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 38):
Quoting Speedracer1407 (Reply 37):
Er, no, FBW controls in the case of EMB 170-195.

The ailerons are hydromechanic. Don't ask me why.

Why?  Wink Seriously though, there must be a reason.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
pilotpip
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 38):

The ailerons are hydromechanic. Don't ask me why.

Well, considering the elevator is cable on the 145 I guess they had to keep something old school on the 170.
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redflyer
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:43 pm

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 5):
I've flown traditional yokes, sticks, sidesticks, the side yoke, and the bicycle handlebars (ERJ). With the exception of the ERJ I've flown from both seats with all of the control styles. It's not a big thing. Yeah, not having anything obstrucitng your view of the panel is nice but you know what, my body can pivot around to see stuff. You're rarely using two hands on the controls anyway because one is on the throttles/thrust levers anyway. You guys make way too much of a big deal out of this control philosophy thing.

  
I think Airbus' real innovation was not so much the sidestick, but the FBW they incorporated into their product. The sidestick got all the attention because that is what people could see as the innovation.

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 19):
There is absolutely no reason not to use a side stick, unless you need the mechanical advantage. With the prevalence of FBW, sidesticks will prevail in commercial aviation. Boeing's solution is, in my opinion, non-sensical. Basically only a "we're not following Airbus" thing. The whole "pilots prefer a yoke" thing is hogwash.

I have a hard time following that logic (I don't mean that disrespectfully). Boeing broke with tradition in every sense and manner with regards to the 787. To imply that they didn't go the way of the sidestick because they didn't want to follow Airbus is to imply that they didn't change 1% of aircraft design because of Airbus. Just doesn't make sense. Airbus was on the cutting edge when it came to the use of FBW, carbon fiber, and even a twin widebody design, yet Boeing had no problems incorporating those features in their designs.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 21):
The point is, though, that those same customers do not demand Airbus replace the sidestick with a yoke. For Boeing to fit sidesticks would have required some back-tracking on some of their arguments against them and the Airbus philosophy in general.

What about Boeing backtracking on many other arguments against them and the Airbus philosophy, such as FBW or the use of corbon fiber or even the development of a widebody twin?

Quoting FBU 4EVER! (Reply 8):
with the sidestick out on your side,there's a table that extends in front of you,enabling you to have your inflight meals

I hear this argument often from the sidestick proponents. Fact is, you don't fly 5 or more hours with a meal tray in front of you nor with your charts sitting there in front of you. Those things sit in front of you for a short period of time during the course of the flight. The slide-out table is nice and certainly convenient. But is it a compelling reason?

***************************************

I think the real question regarding the stick vs. yoke issue needs to be looked at from a different perspective. If the stick is "superior" in its performance vs. the yoke, would a manufacturer consider putting it in the center instead of on the side. In other words, if the stick alone provides more control (precision) over a yoke, could/would a manufacturer put it in the center between the pilot's legs (such as on a C-17) and still retain as many pilot proponents/advocates over the yoke?

Edit: I am NOT saying yokes are better! I firmly believe it comes down to a matter of preference. What I am saying is that I don't believe a sidestick is any better than a yoke. Keep that in mind before you flame me.

[Edited 2007-08-28 05:52:33]
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DeltaGuy
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 19):
The whole "pilots prefer a yoke" thing is hogwash.

What if we do? What if alot of people prefer it overall?

Fact is there's enough pilots and customers out there to keep yokes and sidesticks. Why do we all need to conform to one set system?

Here's another example- Gulfstream and Dassault. The new Falcon 7X has sidesticks....Gulfstream has stayed the course and kept the yokes on the G550 (same yoke style on most of the a/c in the fleet). Time will tell but I think some of the old hats know what to keep.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
mrocktor
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
What about Boeing backtracking on many other arguments against them and the Airbus philosophy, such as FBW or the use of corbon fiber or even the development of a widebody twin?

Boeing made a big hoo-ha about the yoke vs stick issue when they made the 777, it makes it hard for them to back down now.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 39):
Seriously though, there must be a reason.

Care to speculate what would the reason be for keeping mechanical aileron systems and all the weight, maintenance and installation penalties they entail if you already have a full authority, flight critical, FBW system for the elevator, rudder and spoilers and are already paying the penalties for that?  devil 
 
jetfixer
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 38):
The ailerons are hydromechanic. Don't ask me why.



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 39):
Why? Seriously though, there must be a reason.

It is for redundancy. Total power failure you still need to be able to control a FBW aircraft. Embraer chose to control the ailerons mechanically which required a yoke. Airbus chose to control the horizontal stab and rudder mechanically using rudder pedals and a trim wheel.

Jetixer
 
SlamClick
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
Fact is, you don't fly 5 or more hours with a meal tray in front of you nor with your charts sitting there in front of you.

You've just made the argument for a sidestick.

With a Boeing you use the yoke for five minutes in a nine-hour flight. The rest of the time it is a useless hunk of machinery that is always in your way. Absurd. It is bad enough that you have to put up with a three-foot tall thing between your knees when it is rendered useless for the majority of the flight by autopilot usage, but if the thing was nothing but a "joystick" (pardon me) for a FBW system its uselessness is a little too in-your-face for me.

The yoke is rather like the horseless carriage. They made early automobiles look like horsedrawn buggies because that was the comfort level of the early drivers. Thank God we were able to train a generation of drivers who didn't have to pretend there was an invisible horse out there. The yoke is a relic every bit as much as inches and ounces.

I flew short and long flights on more than one FBW Airbus and more than one Boeing. It is my opinion that Boeing is a superior product in almost every possible way. The exception is the flight deck. I hate that cramped Boeing cubbyhole so much that I bid Airbus even though I didn't trust it for most of the second half of my career. I bid it when the money or other considerations might have been better on the junior Boeings. I had to be "bumped" onto the Boeings.
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redflyer
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 45):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
Fact is, you don't fly 5 or more hours with a meal tray in front of you nor with your charts sitting there in front of you.

You've just made the argument for a sidestick.

With a Boeing you use the yoke for five minutes in a nine-hour flight. The rest of the time it is a useless hunk of machinery that is always in your way. Absurd. It is bad enough that you have to put up with a three-foot tall thing between your knees when it is rendered useless for the majority of the flight by autopilot usage, but if the thing was nothing but a "joystick" (pardon me) for a FBW system its uselessness is a little too in-your-face for me.

Can't argue with your logic. So let me ask this question: Is the sidestick "superior"? The arguments I've heard are that it's "superior" because it frees up the space in front of the pilot and renders it more useful vis-a-vis the slide-out tray. Okay, can't argue with that and there's no denying that it definitely does free up that space and make it less cluttered. But is the sidestick "superior" from the standpoint of hand-flying the airplane?

I have a hard time believing that when Boeing designed the 787 from scratch and incorporated every conceivable advantage it could think of into the airplane, they held back on ONE item -- the sidestick -- because they did not want to follow Airbus' philosophy. TDSCanuck's explanation in Reply 26, above, regarding commonality with the 777 is the most plausable one I've heard thus far, and it may in fact be the real reason why Boeing stuck with the yoke. But I tend to think that there are other reasons that led Boeing to continue incorporating a yoke.

The only arguments I've heard in favor of the sidestick are that it frees up the space in front of the pilot and makes the space more usable for other tasks. I've yet to hear anyone say it makes the airplane easier to hand-fly. So is this the reason why Boeing sticks with the yoke? Because even though a pilot may hand-fly the airplane for only 10 minutes in a 9 hour flight, at the end of the day it is still the pilot that is responsible for flying the airplane -- the pilot is the keystone in the cockpit.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
mrocktor
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting Jetfixer (Reply 44):
Total power failure you still need to be able to control a FBW aircraft.

Not redundancy. If you kill all power on an E-jet you are dead. No elevator, no rudder. Having ailerons won't save you. Oh, and the ailerons are not mechanically reversible - without hydro power you can't control them either.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 46):
But is the sidestick "superior" from the standpoint of hand-flying the airplane?

In a word, yes.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Joysticks: How Many Went For It?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 43):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 39):
Seriously though, there must be a reason.

Care to speculate what would the reason be for keeping mechanical aileron systems and all the weight, maintenance and installation penalties they entail if you already have a full authority, flight critical, FBW system for the elevator, rudder and spoilers and are already paying the penalties for that?

Hehe. Maybe they were in a hurry? I dunno.

Quoting Jetfixer (Reply 44):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 39):
Why? Seriously though, there must be a reason.

It is for redundancy. Total power failure you still need to be able to control a FBW aircraft. Embraer chose to control the ailerons mechanically which required a yoke. Airbus chose to control the horizontal stab and rudder mechanically using rudder pedals and a trim wheel.

IIRC the 380 has no mechanical backups. But I may be wrong.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 46):

Can't argue with your logic. So let me ask this question: Is the sidestick "superior"? The arguments I've heard are that it's "superior" because it frees up the space in front of the pilot and renders it more useful vis-a-vis the slide-out tray. Okay, can't argue with that and there's no denying that it definitely does free up that space and make it less cluttered. But is the sidestick "superior" from the standpoint of hand-flying the airplane?

Interesting question. However I think the question should be: Are they both good enough to hand fly the plane? If they are, other considerations, such as cockpit comfort, should have an impact on the decision.

There's more to it. In Normal Law, the stick on a FBW Airbus does not control roll like the yoke on a Boeing. It's a roll rate selector, not an aileron deflection selector. Very different.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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