Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
txkf2010
Topic Author
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:10 am

Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:26 pm

So in calgary about 6 weeks ago and was told 2 taxi into position and hold but 2 roll forward about 400ft so a 727 could also be in position and hold behind me, on runway 34. Ive looked all around and didnt find anything bout this being legal or not legal. Anyone know for sure or seen this b4? Controllers, other pilots?
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7872
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:13 pm

I couldn't find anything either, but from what I remember (having this happened during my flight exam) is that it is legal as long there is still sufficient runway length for take off and is at pilot's discretion if they feel it's safe or not safe. The same is with intersection take-offs (departing from another point on the runway other than the threshold), they are technically illegal however, can be made if the same criteria as above are met.

Perhaps, someone who isn't as tired would care to check up on the CAR's or AIP for a definitive answer.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...le

Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:47 pm

It's legal. Line 2 up on the runway so that the second one is ready to roll once the departure separation is satisfied. This used to save a few seconds. Add a few double line ups together that's an extra slot. It's done at Heathrow, Hong Kong, you name it, and these are major international airports.

Usual caveats - subject to local CAA rules and sufficient distance between the 2 to prevent jet blast/FOD.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
theginge
Posts: 533
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:53 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:01 pm

They line up 2 at a time at LHR using the intersections to get traffic away a bit quicker.
 
InnocuousFox
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:09 pm

I've seen it before at OMA but it involved a small private aircraft in front of a commercial jet. Not a lot of jet blast there.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
kstatepilot
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:23 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:28 pm

At PHX they clear the first aircraft to takeoff and immediately clear the second on to taxi into position and hold. Not exactly the same, but pretty close.
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:21 am

Ehhh. I wouldnt do it as a pilot or as a controller.

Two aircraft in position at the same time from the SAME interesection, thats illegal as far as I can see. (I also think youre an incompetent controller if you "have" to do that). Now one at an intersection in position and one full length, well this changes daily it seems with the FAA. We can do it during daylight, but not between sunset and sunrise I believe at the moment.

ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
User avatar
Acey
Posts: 1125
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 pm

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 5):
At PHX they clear the first aircraft to takeoff and immediately clear the second on to taxi into position and hold. Not exactly the same, but pretty close.

That's done at every airport that uses position and hold, so it's a not an issue.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
B6JFKH81
Posts: 2156
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:35 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:03 am

I have done this during the summer when there are a lot of GA departures. They would have some a/c taxi for a full length departure, some for an intersection departure. It was interesting to be in a Warrior III and have a GV right behind me LOL!
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
JRadier
Posts: 3957
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting Theginge (Reply 3):
They line up 2 at a time at LHR using the intersections to get traffic away a bit quicker.

I've seen 3 at AMS. 2 at the beginning of the runway, and an F50 on an intersection
 
NWA ARJ
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 9:54 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:05 am

It just depends upon where you go. In Fargo, ND they have done away with TIPH all together. Same at Bismarck, ND. And the airports that do do it have a waiver of some kind. And now the FAA says we cannot put two into position and hold simultaneously on the same runway
Nightmare 68, Fargo Tower, Runway 36, Fly Runway Heading, Mantain 10,000, Cleared For Takeoff, Change To Departure
 
9VSIO
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:00 pm

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:29 am

Here's another example: while at EGLC in little cessnas, there were two of us holding at the same point as a bizjet took off, then the guy ahead of me was instructed to enter, backtrack and line-up. I was then instructed to backtrack and line up behind the first cessna. So we positioned ourselves on the centreline while he was slightly to the right. Sounds silly, but I got more of a rush from this t/o. Reminded me of the photos of two planes being shot off a carrier! So far, its the only time that I've experienced it.

As we were both staying in the pattern, the separation wasn't that much resulting in a slow downwind leg so I wouldn't have to go around!
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:30 am

I've done it many times as a pilot, all during daylight hours, and all in light aircraft. They'll line three up on the runway and then give them takeoff clearance once the required separation is established.

This was a few years ago, however, and I understand that the TIPH rules may have changed since then.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
NWA ARJ
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 9:54 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:33 am

Yea it used to be done alot. At VFR towers I would do it all the time as a pilot. But as MIR pointed out it was changed a few years ago, in the US you cannot put two or more simultaneously into position and hold on the same runway.
Nightmare 68, Fargo Tower, Runway 36, Fly Runway Heading, Mantain 10,000, Cleared For Takeoff, Change To Departure
 
P3Orion
Posts: 382
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:01 pm

Quoting NWA ARJ (Reply 10):
It just depends upon where you go. In Fargo, ND they have done away with TIPH all together. Same at Bismarck, ND. And the airports that do do it have a waiver of some kind.

If you miss using TIPH, put in your paperwork and come down to ORD. We need people.
Baker's 7 year, Carpano Antica, Luxardo, Bittercube cherry bark vanilla bitters
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:25 pm

Now that we (my airline) have a ton more flights leaving early. When we are taking aircraft back to the gate from the hangar, I have been cleared across the runway but told to hold short of taxiway Charlie. If you look at most airports this is a very limited space. The first time the controller told me to do this I hesitated and asked him to repeat his instructions. One of our birds took off behind me and that gave me room to get between the other 4. About 0600 at Love Field. Dang it's getting busy here. I am taxi/run qualified and a licensed pilot. You will be amazed at what will be asked of you in your flying experience. Just be safe.

737tdi
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:06 pm

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 14):
If you miss using TIPH, put in your paperwork and come down to ORD. We need people.

What things do you ORD guys NOT have waivers for?  biggrin 

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ednovak
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:45 pm

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting NWA ARJ (Reply 13):
in the US you cannot put two or more simultaneously into position and hold on the same runway.

According to 7110.65R, para 3-9-4g2, only one aircraft can be taxied into position and hold at an intersection. This seems to imply (right?!?) that you CAN use TIPH with multiple aircraft at the end. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
NWA ARJ
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 9:54 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:05 am

In change 3 for the 7110.65 I found this in 3-9-4i:

i.Do not authorize aircraft to simultaneously taxi
into position and hold on the same runway,between
sunrise and sunset,unless the local assist/local
monitor position is staffed.

The whole change can be found here:
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...at_orders/media/CHG3ATC8-30-07.pdf

I also found this:

f. Change paragraph 3-9-4, subparagraph f, to subparagraph g and to read as follows: An
aircraft may be authorized to taxi into position and hold at an intersection between sunset and
sunrise. The procedure must be approved by the appropriate Director, Terminal Operations
(service area office), and by the Director, Terminal Safety and Operations Support, and must be
contained in a facility directive. The following conditions must apply:
(1) The runway must be used as a departure-only runway.
(2) Only one aircraft at a time is permitted to taxi into position and hold on the same runway.

This was found in Notice 7110.465 which can be found here:
http://web.nbaa.org/public/ops/airspace/tiphnotice_200612.pdf

So it can be done with alot of waivers and if there is enough personell in the tower. Howver our ATC instuctors at the FAA academy tell us we cannot do it. So who knows

[Edited 2007-09-28 02:20:45]
Nightmare 68, Fargo Tower, Runway 36, Fly Runway Heading, Mantain 10,000, Cleared For Takeoff, Change To Departure
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
What things do you ORD guys NOT have waivers for?

...all the things OSH has waivers for.  Wink

2H4

Intentionally Left Blank
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting NWA ARJ (Reply 10):
It just depends upon where you go. In Fargo, ND they have done away with TIPH all together. Same at Bismarck, ND

Yea at most small facilities it is done away with.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
What things do you ORD guys NOT have waivers for?

They only wish they had the waivers and skills as IAH controllers  Wink

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
...all the things OSH has waivers for

Next year OSH...I will wear my pink shirt proud!
Trikes are for kids!
 
P3Orion
Posts: 382
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:56 am

Quoting ATCT (Reply 20):
They only wish they had the waivers and skills as IAH controllers

IAH? Do you ever get to say "Number two, cleared to land?" When are you gonna step up to and play in the Major Leagues?

[Edited 2007-09-29 04:05:31]
Baker's 7 year, Carpano Antica, Luxardo, Bittercube cherry bark vanilla bitters
 
phxplanes
Posts: 381
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:24 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:01 pm

I got to position and hold behind a P-51 mustang who was holding, that was pretty cool.
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:58 am

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 21):
IAH? Do you ever get to say "Number two, cleared to land?"

:P

ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4139
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:06 pm

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 21):
Do you ever get to say "Number two, cleared to land?" When are you gonna step up to and play in the Major Leagues?

LMAO.....they only get to say #2 if we hold the first airplane someplace until the second is close!  Smile

Hey ATCT, skills, come on, you really didn't think that would fly did ya?
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Simultaneous Taxi Into Position & Hold On...legal?

Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 24):
Hey ATCT, skills, come on, you really didn't think that would fly did ya?

It was worth a try. Not to hard to slip something past I90 people  Wink

j/k j/k

keep the blue side up and green between
ATCT
Trikes are for kids!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos