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2H4
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Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:33 am

So I'm cruising around Ebay, looking for things I don't need, and I find this.

It's a watercolor painting from Boeing's "model shop" in Renton, apparently:



So yeah....if anyone knows anything about this thing, I'd love to hear it. Was this ever actually considered by Boeing? Would such a configuration be remotely feasible from structural and aerodynamic standpoints?

2H4

P.S. - If anyone is searching for gift ideas for their friend 2H4, this painting will do just fine.  Wink
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Starlionblue
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:50 am

Cool!

While we're on odd designs, do you have a drawing of the Hunchback of Mukilteo lying around?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
2H4
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:02 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
While we're on odd designs, do you have a drawing of the Hunchback of Mukilteo lying around?

As a matter of fact.....



2H4
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tdscanuck
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:22 am



Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
So yeah....if anyone knows anything about this thing, I'd love to hear it. Was this ever actually considered by Boeing? Would such a configuration be remotely feasible from structural and aerodynamic standpoints?

I don't know anything about this one in particular, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was considered at some point...the configuration guys come up with some very weird things. I have some pictures somewhere of a 1500+ seat seaplane with three hulls. The outer two were modified 747 fuselages and the center one was even bigger...spectacular stuff.

And I'll thank you two never to mention the hunchback of Mukilteo again....blech! To think something that ugly begat the 777...

Tom.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:31 pm

Ok. Some comments:
- I'm not an expert but doesn't that tailplane (or rather aft wing) look rather brittle to you? T-tails are all well and good but those fin/wing joints would be under tremendous strain.
- The entry door above the wing doesn't seem very wise.
- The fore wing/fuse fairing leaves much to be desired.
- What's with the Conny taper? I know it might be more aerodynamically efficient but manufacturing it would be a major PITA.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 2):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
While we're on odd designs, do you have a drawing of the Hunchback of Mukilteo lying around?

As a matter of fact.....

Forgive me for doubting you.  Wink

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 3):
And I'll thank you two never to mention the hunchback of Mukilteo again....blech! To think something that ugly begat the 777...

"Begat"! Ooooh. We could totally do the bible thing: The 367-80 begat the 707, which begat the 727, which begat the 757 and 767, which begat the 767-X, which begat the 777.

In any case, if it had been built a.nutters would love it since it's not just another tube with wings.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
2H4
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:16 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 3):
And I'll thank you two never to mention the hunchback of Mukilteo again....blech!

Were they to install giant "cockpit" windows at the front of the hump, you know you'd love it....  Wink

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
In any case, if it had been built a.nutters would love it since it's not just another tube with wings.

That wouldn't stop carriers from ruining it with eurowhite schemes, though....

2H4
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Lemmy
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:53 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5):

Were they to install giant "cockpit" windows at the front of the hump, you know you'd love it....

Damn straight. Kinda reminds me of:

I am a patient boy ...
 
N231YE
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:43 pm

Actually, I have seen some drawings of Boeing's B-47 and B-52 before they were finalized. If some of those things would fit the old pilot saying of, "an airplane will only fly as good as it looks," then boy, the good 'ol USAF would have been running in circles.
 
SNAFlyboy
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:26 pm

What a bizarre design... Maybe the perspective is just playing tricks on me, but is the bend in the top airfoil supposed to be centered with the fuselage? Is the left "stabilizer" just hidden from view, or is this aircraft really as strange as I think?..

Maybe they should design an airliner like the Ames-Dryden AD-1...

 Silly

~SNAFlyboy
 
2H4
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:32 pm



Quoting SNAFlyboy (Reply 8):
is the bend in the top airfoil supposed to be centered with the fuselage?

Yes, I think it is.

Quoting SNAFlyboy (Reply 8):
Is the left "stabilizer" just hidden from view, or is this aircraft really as strange as I think?..

It's just hidden from view. The upper wing is held by two forward-swept airfoils. I'm sure it would be all kinds of fun to service the control surfaces on the upper section....

2H4
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SNAFlyboy
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:39 pm

Ahhh, I see now... I guess it's not quite as bizarre as I originally thought, then...

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 9):
I'm sure it would be all kinds of fun to service the control surfaces on the upper section....

No kidding. Drop a piece or a tool from that center section of the top airfoil and suddenly you have a new hole to patch in the fuselage... Rats.   

~SNAFlyboy

[Edited 2007-11-28 11:40:46]
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:36 pm



Quoting Lemmy (Reply 6):
Damn straight. Kinda reminds me of:

That Buick ad is truly the product of a bygone era. Nowadays copywriters would never create such a wall of text. Apparently attention spans aren't what they used to be.  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
2H4
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:15 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
That Buick ad is truly the product of a bygone era. Nowadays copywriters would never create such a wall of text. Apparently attention spans aren't what they used to be.

I don't know how you expect people to read three sentences all packed together in a row like that...

2H4
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avioniker
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:43 am

I really do hate to show my age but. . .
The pic at the beginning of the thread is from the '60s. I recall seeing an article in POPULAR SCIENCE, I'm thinking around 1967or 68 with many such designs plus the X wing design as possible low drag/impact designs for supersonic aircraft.
Now you all find the back issues
 Smile
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
pmk
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:01 am

Does anybody remember the 747-300 tri-jet concept??

That always looked so weird to me...

PMK
 
57AZ
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:02 am

Actually, the 767-X design reminds me of the GM "Buffalo" coaches that Greyhound operated under the Scenicruiser brand.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
2H4
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:13 am



Quoting Pmk (Reply 14):
Does anybody remember the 747-300 tri-jet concept??



2H4
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:58 am



Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
Was this ever actually considered by Boeing?

Whoever drew that thing must have been smoking, or drinking, some good stuff  drunk 
 
2H4
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:06 am



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 17):
Whoever drew that thing must have been smoking, or drinking, some good stuff

Indeed. I wouldn't be surprised if, upon closer inspection, a unicorn is visible somewhere in the painting...

2H4
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WingedMigrator
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:25 am



Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
Was this ever actually considered by Boeing?

Dunno, but check this monster out!
http://www.google.com/patents?id=GDwZAAAAEBAJ

There are lots of CRAZY configurations patented by both Airbus and Boeing... search around a bit in the patent literature; some concepts make the Hunchback of Mukilteo look tame!

(incidentally, I've discovered that patents are also a great way to learn about arcane aircraft design details from shear ties to engine mounts and everything in between)
 
oly720man
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:16 am

Searching around for the above I found a Boeing "A380"..... as a possible bigger B747

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...asa.gov/19950005076_1995105076.pdf

Goto page 69,70 / 212 of this report






How about the Boeing 759-211?

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...asa.gov/19800012833_1980012833.pdf
(NASA TP-1625)
Parametric Study of Variation in Cargo- Airplane Performance Related to Progression From Current to Spanloader Designs

https://www.airliners.net/uf/536884808/php0cOl1h.jpg
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:32 am



Quoting Oly720man (Reply 20):
Searching around for the above I found a Boeing "A380"..... as a possible bigger B747

There was also the NLA that looked like a 380 but with the flight deck in the 747 position.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
lehpron
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:37 am

It's doubtful a Boeing engineer will draw up a plane and not do the analysis. In my experience, new/different ideas get more knocked off due to being different (the excuse of cost, implimentation and risk assement also follows when asked why).

I know because I've recieve a lot of that.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:14 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 3):
I have some pictures somewhere of a 1500+ seat seaplane with three hulls.

Found it:
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3658/picture26tm1.jpg
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/471/picture12gc8.jpg
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/2418/picture11xa5.jpg
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5229/picture27ay9.jpg

There was also the Kingon Battle Cruiser...
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/7352/picture24yl4.jpg
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/7247/picture7au5.jpg

the Transonic Seagull...


and the Seattle Sea Monster...


And, lest I be acused of being Boeing-centric...


Tom.
 
FWI747
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:49 am

I love it !!  rotfl 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:17 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 23):

Fantastic Pics.Where did you find them.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
2H4
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:17 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 23):
Found it:http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3658/picture26tm1.jpg

I can only imagine how much it would cost to deice such a beast.

I wonder what they would do with the outer cockpits. Those could be made into the ultimate travel suites...

2H4
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Starlionblue
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:02 pm

I musdt echo 2H4 and wonder what the outer cockpits were for.

Also the landing clearances would be fantastic. "Visual approach Runway 26L AND 26R, and try not to chew up the grass in between too much". "Roger that."
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:15 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 25):

Fantastic Pics.Where did you find them.

They're all from a humongous aeronautics presentation I got from a University of Washington professor. The "Super Clipper" was one of his "what if we wanted to fly 1000+ people" concepts just to throw ideas around and see what came out. I suspect the pictures came from Boeing's graphics bunch, given the background and overall look of it. The "Klingon Battle Cruiser" is actually a Boeing-patented configuration designed to take advantage of some of the features of a swept C-wing. There are some nice line drawings from the patent, but these pictures looks like they came from CATIA or something like it. The "Transsonic Seagull" is the unnatural result of the Boeing/McDonnellDouglas merger...it's MD's BWB with Boeing's C-wing...the picture is a picture of a real model (desktop mockup, I think). The "Pelican" comes from some marketing material provided for a Smithsonian magazine. Pictures from the same series were also in Popular Mechanics (or maybe Popular Science) about the same time.

I don't know where the A315 picture originates...someone was bored with Photoshop, I suspect.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):
I wonder what they would do with the outer cockpits. Those could be made into the ultimate travel suites...

Since this was purely a brainstorming exercise, as far as I know, I don't think they got down to the nitty gritty details like that. Maybe it was just that, with 1500+ people, you actually want a redundant flight deck. But yeah, what a view if they were passenger seats...

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 27):

Also the landing clearances would be fantastic. "Visual approach Runway 26L AND 26R, and try not to chew up the grass in between too much". "Roger that."

Actually, it's a flying boat. Hence the funny lower hull shapes and high-mounted engines. Once they broke the 80m x 80m box I think they basically threw the idea of conventional airports out the window.

Tom.
 
cloudy
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:26 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
- What's with the Conny taper? I know it might be more aerodynamically efficient but manufacturing it would be a major PITA.

Composites make many more shapes possible from a manufacturing standpoint. Making a practical seat layout and accommodating standard cargo containers may be a bigger problem.

Some reasons we may see more unusual shapes in the future...

- Possible efficiency gains look tempting when the price of oil is so high.

- Greater computing power + more advanced software make it easier to compute the aerodynamic
and structural properties of such designs.

- There will likely be more than just 2 100+ seat airframe builders in the future. A more dynamic and competitive market forces players to innovate. Oligopolies like the auto and aircraft industry tend to be very conservative - since there is more to be lost by being wrong about being to bold than by being to conservative. It is easier in an oligopoly to catch up to someone else's innovations than to recover from a failed radically new product launch. This is particularly true when there are high start-up costs to launch a new product. Necessity is the mother of invention. The only reason a company will turn out something radically new in a stable oligopoly is if they are afraid of being forced out of the market - that is what probably would have happened to Boeing had it not made a huge bet on the 787.
 
PlunaCRJ
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:09 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 28):
Actually, it's a flying boat. Hence the funny lower hull shapes and high-mounted engines. Once they broke the 80m x 80m box I think they basically threw the idea of conventional airports out the window.

What do you mean? So I can´t take my brand new 1000 plus seater to Las Vegas?

Out of joke, I don´t see anything bigger than the A380-900 coming to life. And definitely not a new flying boat.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:25 pm



Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 30):
So I can´t take my brand new 1000 plus seater to Las Vegas?

There's that big lake thingie.  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:51 pm



Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 30):
Out of joke, I don´t see anything bigger than the A380-900 coming to life. And definitely not a new flying boat.

Certainly not in the near term. To the best of my knowledge, the Super Clipper wasn't a Boeing marketing study at all (i.e. there was no implication that there was market demand). It was a design exercise to answer the question "What would we do if somebody wanted to fly 1000+ people?" It's good to explore those kinds of things when there isn't demand, to keep the engineers thinking about alternatives and to give you at least some baselines for discussion if/when a customer ever comes up with a wacky requirement like that. Plus, it's fun.

Tom.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:15 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 3):
And I'll thank you two never to mention the hunchback of Mukilteo again....blech! To think something that ugly begat the 777...

"Begat"! Ooooh. We could totally do the bible thing:

I think the picture was taken when the 767 was pregnant with the 777!  Smile

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):

That Buick ad is truly the product of a bygone era. Nowadays copywriters would never create such a wall of text. Apparently attention spans aren't what they used to be.

They didn't have the internet and electronic games to compete with for prospective customers' attention then. OTOH, they would've used it to bombard their target audience.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 23):

There was also the Kingon Battle Cruiser...

Now, who says trijets are dead?  Wink

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 23):
And, lest I be acused of being Boeing-centric...

That's very cute. Would make a fantastic toy for your little tyke or a nice trinket for your rear view mirror, or a gift key chain for your typical A.Nutter.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 27):
Also the landing clearances would be fantastic. "Visual approach Runway 26L AND 26R, and try not to chew up the grass in between too much". "Roger that."

They would need the equivalent (electronic?) of todays' wingwalkers for something that big when they come alongside the pier.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 28):

Actually, it's a flying boat. Hence the funny lower hull shapes and high-mounted engines. Once they broke the 80m x 80m box I think they basically threw the idea of conventional airports out the window.

And created the need for a novel waterport different from those used by the biggest carriers. Imagine the whole slew of new generation GSE (err, water support equipment?) that would have been spawned by such a creature - jetways on pontoons, baggage handlers, poop boats, tugboats for pushback, etc. and perhaps the biggest floating drydock/hangar like KIX. Refuelling might not be too much of an issue, but what about elect'l. grounding and tiedown points - drop huge anchors? Bollards may not be very practical because of the wing.  scratchchin 

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 32):
It was a design exercise to answer the question "What would we do if somebody wanted to fly 1000+ people?" It's good to explore those kinds of things when there isn't demand, to keep the engineers thinking about alternatives and to give you at least some baselines for discussion if/when a customer ever comes up with a wacky requirement like that. Plus, it's fun.

Makes me think Boeing engineers actually have a lot of free time to doodle around!  Big grin
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
L-188
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:55 pm

Can I nominate an aircraft that actually made it off the paper?

The Boeing L-15, the last single engine piston aircraft that Boeing ever made. It was designed to be broken down to fit in C-97 transports. The Air Force with the Cessna 0-1 instead. A couple of the twelve that where built ended up with USFWS in Alaska. My grandfather rode around in one.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ha763
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:26 am



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 9):
Quoting SNAFlyboy (Reply 8):
Is the left "stabilizer" just hidden from view, or is this aircraft really as strange as I think?..

It's just hidden from view. The upper wing is held by two forward-swept airfoils. I'm sure it would be all kinds of fun to service the control surfaces on the upper section....

It actually looks like there is no "left stabilizer." Check out the other aircraft in the lower right of the picture.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:28 am

Not strange, just infinitely "rare" and definitely classics.....

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/gallery/C8A-BW.html

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/gallery/C8B-ModelC.html

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/gallery/C8C-B1.html

.....and the twin-tailed, canard equipped, forward-swept wing civil tilt rotor.....

hs7450.tif

hs7451.tif

[Edited 2007-12-05 20:58:35]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
dw747400
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:57 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 32):
To the best of my knowledge, the Super Clipper wasn't a Boeing marketing study at all (i.e. there was no implication that there was market demand). It was a design exercise to answer the question "What would we do if somebody wanted to fly 1000+ people?"

One of the engineers who worked on the super-clipper and Klingon Battlecruiser gave a talk at an AIAA dinner a while back, and it was fascinating to say the least. They were researching innovative solutions for aircraft in the 500 to 750 passenger range, including flying wings and BWBs. The "KB" was actually an effort to make a very large aircraft operate out of a small airport. I don't recall exactly, but I believe it was able to carry 450 to 600 passengers off 7,000 feet of runway and fly 5,000 to 7,000 miles--all with a wingspan under 200 feet. In theory, fuel burn would have been slightly worse than a conventional design of the same size, so despite being infrastructure friendly it was never considered more than a case study.

The super clipper was the culmination of the work, an effort that investigated both how large an aircraft could be. It also helped the engineering team put their work in perspective with executives--when someone objected that a 600 seat plane was "insanely large", out came the clipper design--"no, but THIS one is".

Also, the 1500 figure assumed a luxury interior, with shops, restaurants, bowling alleys (sound familiar?). I'd imagine that a high density configuration would easily carry 50% more.
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
SNAFlyboy
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:24 am



Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 37):
Also, the 1500 figure assumed a luxury interior, with shops, restaurants, bowling alleys (sound familiar?).

Add mid-air refueling capability and a few reserve pilots and you've got it made. Big grin

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 35):
It actually looks like there is no "left stabilizer." Check out the other aircraft in the lower right of the picture.

I'm sure 2H4 must be correct, the physics involved with having only a right stabilizer out there at that strange angle would be miserable, to say the least...especially during hard landings. Ouch. I will say from an artist's point of view though, that the painter might have picked a less ambiguous perspective in order to better show off the aircraft...

~SNAFlyboy
 
BWilliams
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RE: Strangest Boeing Design Ever

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:54 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 23):
Found it:

Hm.. this might seem 'out-there', but parts of that massive thing might work. Taking just the center hull and essentially sticking some wings on it with a handful of massive engines (4 next generation GE90s, or 5-6 current GE90s?) and a standard tail would end up with a huge plane that would compete with, and even dwarf, the A380. My guess would be that, with an A380-esque layout extended onto the three (only 3, right?) decks, it would hold 700-750 pax + all of the amenities. In an all-economy layout without anything but seating... almost 1000.

Wouldn't be a good business move for B right now, but airlines will eventually want bigger then the A380.


And no, I'm not high as I'm writing this. Big grin
Regards, Brad Williams

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