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jamesbuk
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What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:29 pm

Hey guys and girls...

Lets set 2 scenarios here...

scenario 1) What would happen if say the only 2 pilots on a normal flight went over hours during a flight? But they didn't predict this happening as say head winds suddenly got stronger. By the way this flight is over land, Would they land and wait hours for a new crew?

scenario 2) Much like the other scenario - but this one is over an ocean, so nowhere to land. Obviously the crew would be forced to fly - but would it have to be an auto land landing? would the crews be punished?


Rgds --James--
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bx737
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:57 pm

I can't answer for pilots but it has happened to me, we have continued on with the flight, there is no point in annoying your pax by stopping off. If you do go out of hours unplanned, there is a delay so pax are annoyed anyway, why make it worse? When we got to wherever we were going, we then had a row with our crew control department
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:59 pm

An aircraft wouldn't land to get a new crew. The dispatch people usually know wind conditions before a flight leaves. If they were that close a relief pilot would have been put on the flight. There are exceptions that allow a flight crew to go over their duty day. But it is structured in such a way to prevent abuse by those doing the scheduling. And certainly any Pilots or F/A union would make noise if it was routinely done.
 
Pope
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:37 pm

Isn't there a provision in the FAR's that if a crew goes x% over it requires additional rest before it can legally operate again?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
kstatepilot
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:41 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 3):
Isn't there a provision in the FAR's that if a crew goes x% over it requires additional rest before it can legally operate again?

Kindof, it is in terms of hours worked and time flown...

If it is a weather issue then the crew is allowed to continue the flight. This is beyond the control of the airline. If they are still at the gate and know they will fly over time they can't legally take off!
 
JRadier
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:41 pm



Quoting Bx737 (Reply 1):
f you do go out of hours unplanned, there is a delay so pax are annoyed anyway, why make it worse?

Perhaps in order not to piss off the FAA/JAA equivalent? Duty-hours are regulated for a reason.
 
dispatchguy
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:43 pm

Legal to start, legal to finish

Yes, if a crew goes over a certain number of actual hours in an operational day, they may require increased rest before they fly the next day.

We dont have relief pilots in US 121 operations, except the long-haul overwater flights, where we will have pilots called "bunkies" who are "dozing for dollars" and just allow the prime flight crew cycle through required rest requirements enroute.

For example, UAL 895s (KORD-VHHH) will have two crews. The line crew, and the bunkie crew (two pilots each). Upon arrival in VHHH, the bunkie crew turns around (after 50 or so hours of rest) and heads back to KORD. The line crew (the crew operating the takeoff at KORD) continues on to somewhere in Asia, lays over, then back to VHHH, then back to KORD.

The prime crew does the 895 trip twice, and they are nearly maxed out for the month. Bunkie crew can do it 4 times a month then be timed out.

Domestically, as long as you are not forecasted to break 16 hours of duty in a duty period, legal to start, legal to finish applies.
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SWISSER
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:24 pm

You can go in discretion as well and that grants you a few extra hours over the limit, my airline has a democratic system,
the complete crew can vote to go in discretion but it's either everyone or no one, like a jury.
In practical this would mean you need to divert if you follow the 'book'.

Going into a flight with high suspicion of going over the limit in a situation as mentioned here is actually very bad planning,
always before you take-off you will know what the timing will be and you can not go in discretion before the duty starts.

Going over the limit with or without discretion, even with extra time included can result in loss of lisences if the issuer finds out. It happens and it is a serious issue.

On the other hand our 'book' is so complicated you need a lawyer to interprete exactly what's written there concerning duty timings, especially stand by's, call-outs and notification times...it's a nightmare!
What time is top of descent?
 
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litz
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:35 pm

Compare this to trucks and trains, where you stop when you reach your hours maximum ... there are cases where trains have stopped right in place on the mainline (a relief crew would have to be driven in) ...

Airplanes are a little more lucky, but no less regulated ...

- litz
 
ckfred
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:46 pm

My understanding is that it used to be normal to send a crew out that was legal upon departure, but illegal upon arrival. This wasn't routine, but often happened because of weather delays or ATC congestion.

Now, a crew can't be sent out, if it will be illegal before arrival. That doesn't mean that crews don't become illegal while flying, say because of weather not following predictions, but it happens less often.
 
flyf15
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midfli

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:59 pm

Here's how it all works (at least, in the US):

Using appropriate flight planning, the length of flight and estimated taxi times are determined. You must be projected to duty out by your legal duty time or you can't leave the gate.

If you are legal to push but encounter some kind of delay after push but before takeoff where your takeoff time puts you past duty limit, you must do a gate return.

If you are in the air and either you, crew scheduling, or dispatch has determined you took off illegally (ie: too late to make your duty time in and be legal), there are a few options depending on the severity of how far you are projected to be over. If it is a few minutes, you can create a new flight plan based on a shorter route / higher speed that will put you legal. If this cannot be done, you may have to change your destination to a destination where you can get on the ground legally (ie: divert). Although the diversion will keep the Feds off everyone's back, you can bet you're gonna be in some mighty hot water with the company. If this cannot be done, you are most likely already over max duty time (or will be upon landing) and unless you have a really good explanation, you, your schedulers, and your dispatch are going to have to have a nice little chat with the Friendly Airman Association thats going to result in some, possibly nasty, discipline.

As long as when you start your takeoff roll, based on current planning, you are planned to be legal to land, the entire flight is legal no matter what delays you incur inflight. If you go over your duty time due to holding, excessive headwinds, etc, you may have to make a little writeup explaining what happened, but no illegality occurred and nobody will be in trouble.
 
dispatchguy
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:10 pm



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 9):
Now, a crew can't be sent out, if it will be illegal before arrival. That doesn't mean that crews don't become illegal while flying, say because of weather not following predictions, but it happens less often.

Domestically, that rule is an interpretation of 121.471, which basically codified a maximum duty day of 16 duty hours for a domestic FAR 121 type flight crew with 2 pilots.

If, upon takeoff, your previous duty day since your last rest period, plus the scheduled flight time of the flight, plus the taxi-in time, plus your debrief time, put you in an over 16 hr duty situation, you were NOT legal for takeoff. I have called flights back from number 2 from takeoff to avoid a "Whitlow" violation (called Whitlow after the FAA General Counsel who wrote the ruling).

However, if you tookoff legally, and were estimated to complete the duty day before 16 hours of duty, but due to ATC, weather, etc., you exceeded 16 (conditions not under the control of the airline), legal to start, legal to finish. However, you will probably need more rest at the end of the duty day for going over 16.

Same on exceeding 8 hours of flight in a duty day, if your schedule was a legally built schedule, but through events beyond the control of the airline, you were now estimated to be over 8 for the day, you can continue to fly and complete your original schedule.

Say u have 8 1 hour long flights on a duty day. Your first segment goes overtime by 5 mins, so you now have 8+05 at the end of the duty day; you may complete that schedule, as long as your original schedule isnt changed. Now, lets say that last roundtrip cancels early in the day(now youre down to 6+05 of flight time), and the company wants to reassign you to other flying - another 2 hour roundtrip which is the same length as your previous schedule (back to an estimated 8+05 day); no can do for that is a reassignment - and you cant be reassigned over 8.

Like another poster said, flight crew duty time regulations are very complex, and can be very confusing. That is why a GOOD crew scheduler is worth their weight in Gold!
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Pihero
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:12 pm



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 10):
As long as when you start your takeoff roll, based on current planning, you are planned to be legal to land, the entire flight is legal no matter what delays you incur inflight. If you go over your duty time due to holding, excessive headwinds, etc, you may have to make a little writeup explaining what happened, but no illegality occurred and nobody will be in trouble.

That is the main point : If a crew encounters during the flight some unforeseen reasons that will put them over their duty time limit, they are legal to complete the mission. These unforeseen reasons are, as already been said :excessive ATC holding, re-routing, flight out of optimum, severe weather, failures that prevent a landing within the forecasted minimums...etc...
Contrail designer
 
beeweel15
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:39 pm

From my experiences over the years the following has happened:

1 - Once en route to POS from JFK the crew decided to fly non stop to POS and eliminate the BGI stop due to a maintenance problem with the aircraft at JFK. If the made the stop in BGI they would have had to get their manditory rest there.

2 - Crews on delayed flights inbound to JFK will take their rest plus extra hours. So the departing flight will be delayed.
 
bond007
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:50 pm



Quoting SWISSER (Reply 7):
You can go in discretion as well and that grants you a few extra hours over the limit, my airline has a democratic system,
the complete crew can vote to go in discretion but it's either everyone or no one, like a jury.

Yes, this is where the FAA rules differ from CAA/JAR. The FAA does not have the 'discretion' part, where the captain can choose to depart over the legal maximum (an extra 3hrs ?), depending on the 'vote' of the rest of the crew. With the FAA it is fixed, and it would be illegal to depart ... no 'extra' hours allowed.

I understand the captain can also use his discretion to reduce rest time.

All reportable to the CAA when he does use the discretionary option.


Jimbo
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AAR90
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:02 pm



Quoting Jamesbuk (Thread starter):
1) What would happen if say the only 2 pilots on a normal flight went over hours during a flight? But they didn't predict this happening as say head winds suddenly got stronger. By the way this flight is over land, Would they land and wait hours for a new crew?

Based upon flight planning, one is legal to takeoff IF the flight can be completed AS PLANNED within legal limits. Once airborne, a diversion is NOT required. Once the crew has landed (wherever), it may not depart on another flight unless it is once again legal to do so.

Quote:
2) Much like the other scenario - but this one is over an ocean, so nowhere to land. Obviously the crew would be forced to fly - but would it have to be an auto land landing? would the crews be punished?

HOW an aircraft is operated is NOT dependent upon crew legalities. Crews are/will be punished for intentionally (and sometimes unintentionally) violating FAR/JAR (or whomever's) regulations. All legal issues handled in a court/hearing room well after the fact and with little common sense applied.
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LTU932
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:04 pm



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 2):
An aircraft wouldn't land to get a new crew.

Actually it has been done sometimes. I recall a few times when a KL aircraft had to land either in Denmark or in Sweden while returning to AMS from a longhaul. I believe those flights were related to KL871, no idea though, but there have been times when they landed and had to wait until a new crew arrives from AMS, because the other crew timed out.
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access-air
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:47 pm

I guess my question is what constitutes duty time? Is it the actual "in aircraft" time or does it include all the flight preparations such as getting flight plans and weather before the start of the duty day? Also does Part 91 flying take from this duty time?
Also, are there any differences in the duty time restrictions between Part 135 carriers and 121 carriers that are running scheduled operations?

Access-Air
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dispatchguy
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:35 pm

Duty Time - time from crew checkin in operations before the first flight of the day, to completion of debrief after the last segment of the day.

Part 91 time, if flown as a part of a 121 duty day, doesnt add to the flight time, but adds to the duty time; so if you wanna do a Part 91 with 121 flying, its usually done at the end of a crews operational day, where no limits apply except if the crew calls fatigued.

135 vs 121, yeah lots, but being a dispatcher, we never touch 135.

Maxes for 121 domestic:
1000 - 121 hours in a year
100 - 121 hours in a month
30 in 7 days
8 in 24

There are crews who attempt to fly the max possible during the year, so as to 121 time out sometime in November, and have as a result, a very nice long vacation (drawing their monthly pay guarantee no less) at the end of the year. I knew one pilot who would try and time out by the 15th of November. The pilot I am thinking of timed out on 15 NOV 2003, with 998.5 flight hours.

He wasnt seen, nor heard from, nor telephone available (not that he was required to be, for he wasnt), until his first trip of the following year.
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
Tornado82
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:41 pm



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 11):

Same on exceeding 8 hours of flight in a duty day, if your schedule was a legally built schedule, but through events beyond the control of the airline, you were now estimated to be over 8 for the day, you can continue to fly and complete your original schedule.

Is that wheels up to wheels down? Or chocks in to chocks out?
 
dispatchguy
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:30 am

Time off blocks, gate departure to gate arrival.
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Tornado82
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:43 am



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 20):
Time off blocks, gate departure to gate arrival.

So if you are scheduled for let's say a run that goes let's say PHL-ORD-LGA-DCA-ORD and that was blocked at 7 hours on the time table. But let's say it's snowing on the east coast, and of course there are takeoff lines at PHL, LGA, and DCA... along with winds at ORD causing delays. Because of this you're at 7 hrs already when you get to DCA, and still have that 90 minute-ish trip over to ORD ahead of you, but that's going to take even longer because of the deicing at DCA in the snow, and the takeoff line at DCA with the snow. Since you were *scheduled* for 7 hours, and the airline didn't change your schedule at any point during the day, you're legal to go to ORD even though it will push you way over 8 hours?
 
Bellerophon
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:44 am

Bond007

...The FAA does not have the 'discretion' part, where the captain can choose to depart over the legal maximum...depending on the 'vote' of the rest of the crew....

UK CAA/JAA regulations refer to Commander's discretion, there is no reference to a vote by the crew, and no requirement to hold one, or take notice of one.

That's not to say that a good Commander wouldn't consult his crew, find out what their previous duties and rest periods had been, how tired they were feeling, see if anyone felt unwell and generally obtain all pertinent information before making the decision to extend a Flying Duty Period; but the decision to extend, and the responsibility for that decision, is solely down to the Commander.

If the company SWISSER flies for has a requirement for a vote, then I would suspect that it is a company requirement, or negotiated industrial agreement, because it isn't a CAA/JAA one.

Best regards

Bellerophon
 
B767300ER
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:10 am

I remember one incident while with TWA as a TLV / LLBG), Israel">LOD F/A on flight 888, JFK-CAI-RUH. TWA tower would request the captain to release the brakes to show an OT departure. One evening during a snow strom the brakes were released for an OT departure but we sat at the gate for over two and half hours awaiting to go to the de-icing stand. At that time part of the crew would only operate JFK-CAI-JFK and not do the RUH turn. Since they did not get the required rest in CAI the return
portion of the flight 891 was delayed in CAI to make the crew legal. Those crewmembers going to RUH had ther full
rest in RUH plus they had an additional rest period in CAI as their pairings were JFK-CAI-RUH/RUH-CAI/CAI-RUH. Once
your legal to leave the flight is completed unless your stop over at an intermediate point and become illegal for departure
from that station. To illustrate that point when TWA changed flight 885 TLV-JFK to stop at Shannon the crews were legal for the full trip. However when they instiuted a fuel stop in Cyprus to avoid fueling in TLV crews had to change in Shannon.
One of the reasons TWA dropped their most profitable internation service to TLV. But thats another story.
 
bond007
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:56 pm



Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 22):
UK CAA/JAA regulations refer to Commander's discretion, there is no reference to a vote by the crew, and no requirement to hold one, or take notice of one.

That's why I put 'vote' in quotes, BUT there certainly is a requirement for the commander to consult with all other crew members. So, if a commander did decide to extend the duty time, when one or more crew disagreed with the decision, it probably would mean some explaining to the company/authorities. So ... 'vote' or 'consult' ....




Jimbo
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HAWK21M
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:44 pm

There is an Extension provision Twice a month provided to cater to such occassions.
regds
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dispatchguy
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:47 pm



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 21):
Since you were *scheduled* for 7 hours, and the airline didn't change your schedule at any point during the day, you're legal to go to ORD even though it will push you way over 8 hours?

Yes, I have seen crews block way over 12 hours actual, domestically under 121.467.

As long as your schedule sequence isnt changed anywhere enroute, you're legal to continue and complete your schedule.

Even if you were to divert - as long as the flight number of the outbound leg doesnt change after the diversion, and the balance of your schedule doesnt change, youre good to go, as long as you still dont violate the 16 hour rule.

DS
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Bellerophon
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:53 am

Bond007

...So, if a commander did decide to extend the duty time, when one or more crew disagreed with the decision, it probably would mean some explaining to the company/authorities...

I'm not quite sure I understand the point you are trying to make, allow me to expand on my earlier answer.

All extensions decisions are reportable, and the circumstances surrounding the decision must be explained, so there is always going to be a written report required of the Commander by the CAA. Whether or not one or more of the crew disagreed with his decision does not affect the fact that a written report is always required by the CAA.

If the CAA subsequently requires a Commander to justify further an extension decision, the CAA will judge that decision on the basis of information known, or which should reasonably have been known, to the Commander at the time the decision was made. Whether or not one, some or all of the crew either agreed or disagreed with his decision will be (largely) irrelevant to that determination.

When a Commander uses his discretion to extend a Flying Duty Period, the only effect is that the proposed duty period now becomes legal. A Commander can't force his crew to operate, he can only make it legal for them to do so.

If an individual crew member should feel that they will be too fatigued safely to complete this new (extended) duty period, then they are under a legal duty to take themself off the trip. That is their decision and their responsibility, exactly as it is on every other trip on every other day of the year.

It is their own individual decision, whether or not to operate, and they must be prepared to justify that decision to their employer, as to why they felt they could not complete a legal rostered duty.

I suspect most airlines would take a very close look at all the circumstances surrounding a crew member who took themselves off a legal flying duty, citing fatigue as the reason! It's a big step to take, and it would be the individual crew member doing the explaining, not the Commander.

Best regards

Bellerophon
 
bond007
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:58 pm



Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 27):
All extensions decisions are reportable, and the circumstances surrounding the decision must be explained, so there is always going to be a written report required of the Commander by the CAA. Whether or not one or more of the crew disagreed with his decision does not affect the fact that a written report is always required by the CAA.

Yes, I am familiar with the reporting regulations. My point (as the discussion concerning 'vote' by the crew) was that if the Commander made a decision without consulting the crew, it would most certainly involve a lot more 'reporting' and explanation than required by regulations, since it is a requirement TO consult with the crew.

"...An aircraft commander may, at his discretion, and after taking note of the circumstances of other members of the crew, extend an FDP..."

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 27):
If the CAA subsequently requires a Commander to justify further an extension decision, the CAA will judge that decision on the basis of information known, or which should reasonably have been known, to the Commander at the time the decision was made. Whether or not one, some or all of the crew either agreed or disagreed with his decision will be (largely) irrelevant to that determination.

I hardly think that if he extended duty time and all the other crew disagreed with his decision, that this would be irrelevant to any inquiry. Of course,as you say, the crew can take themselves off the trip, and should in this case, but that's a different point of discussion.

I'm not sure how we got into this detailed discussion. An earlier post mentioned a 'vote' by the crew, and however you want to call it, the Commander MUST (according to regulations), take ' note of the circumstances of other members of the crew'. Whether the term 'vote' is correct or not is not important, since that is really what is going on ... each crewmember is giving his/her input on whether the flight should continue. It's fairly obvious to me, that if the majority of the crew (or even minority), have issues with it, then the Commander should not extend the time.

Jimbo
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b6flyboy
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:19 am



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 6):
Legal to start, legal to finish

The famous words of crew services
Your Seat Cushion Cannot Be Used As A Flotaion Device...
 
bond007
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:23 pm



Quoting B6flyboy (Reply 29):


Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 6):
Legal to start, legal to finish

The famous words of crew services

There's actually some minor inconsistencies on this thread that I'd like to question .... although I think I know the answer  Wink

Some say if your next flight is not going to put you over the limit(s), then you may depart, and whatever happens weather-wise, or ATC, it won't affect the legality of the flight, since you were NOT going to exceed the time when you initially departed.

I understand that, and agree ... but I get the impression from some, that if you WERE going to exceed the duty time, even if you departed on-time and arrived on-time, then you could not depart.

I may have misinterpreted the latter, but my understanding is that you can STILL depart, even if you know you will exceed your duty time, IF that flight is part of your scheduled duty day.

Actually this is what Dispatchguy described:

Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 11):
Say u have 8 1 hour long flights on a duty day. Your first segment goes overtime by 5 mins, so you now have 8+05 at the end of the duty day; you may complete that schedule, as long as your original schedule isnt changed.

Even before the last flight, the pilot knew he would exceed his duty time ... BUT since it was part of his original schedule, he can depart.

I just got the impression from some posts, that the pilot could NOT depart on the last flight ... which is not correct. Just wanted to clear that up.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
SWISSER
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:33 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 14):
Yes, this is where the FAA rules differ from CAA/JAR. The FAA does not have the 'discretion' part, where the captain can choose to depart over the legal maximum (an extra 3hrs ?), depending on the 'vote' of the rest of the crew. With the FAA it is fixed, and it would be illegal to depart ... no 'extra' hours allowed.

I understand the captain can also use his discretion to reduce rest time.

All reportable to the CAA when he does use the discretionary option.


Jimbo

That's correct, the captain can reduce the rest time or change the report time of the crew at his discretion downroute.

Our max duty time is relatively short, 12 hours and indeed a max of 3 hours in discretion, I was a bit bored on a night flights out of LHR to BAH two days ago so I opened 'the book' to check it again and under the DGCAM regulations the complete crew has to agree to go in discretion and only then it is possible to do it, if 1 member of the crew disagrees, discretion is not an option anymore.

but that is probably only specific for an A4O registered aircraft.

Quoting B6flyboy (Reply 29):
The famous words of crew services

"you have roster changes, press 2 now to hear the changes..."
What time is top of descent?
 
dispatchguy
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:08 am

The argument is scheduled vs actual

As long as you arent originally SCHEDULED to go illegal, you are legal.

Over 8 hours flight time (at least in 121 domestic) is fine, as long as your schedule, when published, didnt put you over 8 in a single duty period. Duty time (time at work - both flying and non flying time) cant exceed 16 hours in domestic 121, period. If it does, you had better at least departed your last segment legally, or you are in violation.

When u walk into the airport for work, you have to be legal; 8 in 24, 30-N-7, 100 a month, 1000 a year, 16hr duty max, whatever. What happens during the operational day is somewhat ok.

Like I said earlier, if a turn cancels and they try to reschedule you, and reschedule you over 8 hours block time (not duty time) in a day; that is a no go - since you are getting a new schedule. A schedule comprised of stuff you have already worked today, and stuff you havent yet worked today.

If say, in your 8 one hour leg day, on leg 7 you divert. Now, you are well over 8 regardless. You can still complete your schedule AS LONG AS the diversion recovery flight is still the same flight number, and the destination is your originally scheduled destination. If they try to send you somewhere new, and this reassignment puts you over 8 for the day - no can do for that is a reassignment over 8. The diversion and diversion recovery are not reassignments.

The one thing that cant be violated is (and again in domestic 121) the 16 hr duty max. Nearly everything else is legal to start, legal to finish.

Yes, at one time I was a flight crew controller for a major US airline.
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
SWISSER
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:15 am

So in short from what I understand according to the 121 domestic you cannot be scheduled for more then 8 hours flight time each duty time, but your block time can exceed 8 hours but not more then 16 hours maximum?

So in practical lets say the report time is 1 hour, the flight leg 'rostered' is 4 hours, turnaround 1 hour and check out 30 minutes; you could perfectly be rostered and perform JFK-LAX-JFK as a total duty time of 10.30 and flight time of 8 hours. So in theory you still have 5.30 on the duty limit but 0 on flight time which you can exceed until the 16 hour duty limit.

An then with the diversion example, because your flight is still assigned under the same duty you can perform the last leg to the destination as well if you are within the 16 hour limit, makes sense as well because you are not reassigned.

So in a nutshell, you can't roster more then 8 hours of flight time, but the duty time can be 16 hours max.

That's quite fair for both crew and rostering actually even with 16 hours max. The 8 hour flight time limit is excellent!

Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 32):
Yes, at one time I was a flight crew controller for a major US airline.

LOL!
I might believe you if you called me out from a SBY!
What time is top of descent?
 
dispatchguy
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RE: What Happens If A Crew Goes Over Time - Midflight?

Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:18 am

Last flight example:

Say a pilot shows for the day at 1100Z (all times UTC). His must duty off time is is 0300Z.

Calculating his last segments must takeoff time is like this: assume a 2+30 flight for the last leg.

0300 - Must duty off time
0015 - Debrief time
0245 - Last legal gate arrival time
0005 - Estimated taxi-in time
0240 - Last legal landing time
0230 - Estimated flight time from the flight plan
0010 - Last legal takeoff time

He must be airborne by 0010Z in order to complete his day within the 16hr duty max. If he launches at 0009Z, but gets inbound holding to destination due to weather/ATC, no foul per 121.471(c).

If our pilot launches at 0012Z and is in the gate at 0247Z, he is in violation, for he launched well after his "drop dead" time. Even if he speeds the flight plan up and makes it under 02+30, he still is in violation, for when he departed, he was illegal.

At least in the SABRE Dispatch manager flight planning system, you can display the "must be airborne by" time right on the flight plan.
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