vikinga346
Topic Author
Posts: 314
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Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:02 pm

There may be a pretty straight forward answer to this question, but I've always wondered....

Taking SFO for example - there are plenty of 747s and other heavies that take off on a regular basis, most of which use RWY 28R because of the runway length. I understand that the runway in use will be determined according to the wind; however, what if you have an extremely strong wind, say 010 @ 50mph?? Would the heavies still be taking off on 28R with an extremely strong crosswind? RWY 28R10L has a length of 11,870 feet - on a daily basis the heavies will request 28R if they are for some reason given 28L - even though 28L is still a plenty long 10,602 feet.

Also, do planes EVER land on 10R/10L?? I have listened to SFO ATC for several weeks now and I have never heard any planes doing an ILS into 10R/10L. I would imagine it is because the ILS glideslope would have to be steep because of the obstacle (hills) beyond the threshold. Anyone knwo for sure?

Thanks!!
...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
 
dragon6172
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RE: Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:12 pm



Quoting VikingA346 (Thread starter):
010 @ 50mph

Pretty sure they do not or can not use it in their calculations, but with that kind of wind speed a heavy should be able to get off the deck on 1R (8648ft). Already a third of the way to your rotation speed with that head wind!
Phrogs Phorever
 
Mir
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RE: Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:15 pm



Quoting VikingA346 (Thread starter):
I have listened to SFO ATC for several weeks now and I have never heard any planes doing an ILS into 10R/10L. I would imagine it is because the ILS glideslope would have to be steep because of the obstacle (hills) beyond the threshold. Anyone knwo for sure?

There is no ILS to 10L/R. They can certainly land on that runway, but IIRC the winds don't really blow that way all that much, so it's rare.

I would guess that heavies would not be taking off from 28 in that sort of wind. They'd be going off of 1L/R, and if they couldn't get off that runway at their takeoff weight, they'd either wait for the winds to change or start bumping passengers and cargo.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
timz
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RE: Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:38 pm



Quoting VikingA346 (Thread starter):
do planes EVER land on 10R/10L??

When arrivals do use the 10s it often only lasts for a few hours. They were doing it one morning within the last couple weeks-- I always notice, since arrivals are then passing over Oakland WSWward at 7000-9000 ft, and there's no other reason for any airliner to do that. I think that was the second time it's happened this winter.

Quoting VikingA346 (Thread starter):
I would imagine it is because the ILS glideslope would have to be steep because of the obstacle (hills)

I suspect not. What are the hills, maybe 400 ft high at 5 nm from the runway? Is that enough to rule out a 3-degree ILS?

I was at SFO one day 10+ years ago when they were landing on runways 1-- JL departed for Tokyo off 1R, but NW waited for a gap in the arrivals to depart on 10L with an immediate left turn.
 
vikinga346
Topic Author
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RE: Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:54 am



Quoting Timz (Reply 3):
I was at SFO one day 10+ years ago when they were landing on runways 1-- JL departed for Tokyo off 1R, but NW waited for a gap in the arrivals to depart on 10L with an immediate left turn.

Yea, aircraft frequently depart on 1L/1R and arrive on 28R/28L with heavies cleared to depart on 28R. They will take turns landing and departing as these runways do intersect.

You're right about the hills not being an obstacle - I spoke prematurely and didn't realize the hills aren't very high! I was just trying to think of a reason that aircraft typically don't land on 10L/10R. It would make sense though, because the ocean is to the west and the wind often blows in from the ocean and not out to the ocean  Smile

I'll wait for the day when we do a visual approach into 10L or 10R - I've landed at SFO a dozen times at least and we've ALWAYS done the approach into 28. Have yet to even see an approach into the 1s or 19s.

Viking
...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
 
apollo13
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RE: Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:15 am

Ive seen Aer Lingus take off from the 1's. I have always wondered why. Considering that it is going to Dublin. Yet with United going to LHR and if its in a 777, why wouldnt they also use the 1's for takeoff? Does the A330 have an advantage over the 777 for using a shorter runway?
 
bablackpilot
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RE: Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:11 am

Well technically the wind speed is given in knots not miles per hour so [email protected] would actually be [email protected]
Now considering that at that speed it would probably exceede the crosswind componet of the airliners, I'm sure they would just close the airport due to winds.
Taking off with a cross wind like that, regardless of what direction you're taking off in is very dangerous. Once you put the aircraft into a situation that it was never tested in or for, you stop becoming a regular pilot and become a test pilot.
As far has hearing a flight cleared for the ILS into SFO RWY 10, it will happen anytime soon because there isn't a procission approach for those runways. There is a couple of non-precission approaches.
I have been on a few flights that have taken off and approach and landed 10....It was no big deal, just like any other approach.
SFO does land RWY 1 every once in a while....maybe 2-3 times a year. Mostly the flights will shoot the ILS or Visual 28 with a circle to land 1.
Once again, no big deal....just requires a few extra turns.
My friend who flys for AA told me he's landed RWY 1R a couple of times and said it's really no differenent then landing at KSAN. He said both approaches are standard except for the BIG mountain in the way. As long as you don't hit it, your day won't be ruined.
My arrogance is only an issue between you and your self-esteem!"
 
slimshady
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RE: Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:25 pm

Funny, I was having lunch at the panera bread in Millbrae, right next to the 'In n Out' and I was suprised as **** to be buzzed by a virgin america airbus which was landing on 010. it was the first and only time I have ever seen planes landing on 010.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:34 am

For the various runway configurations at SFO and resultant airport acceptance rates (AARs), see:
http://www.fly.faa.gov/Information/west/zoa/sfo/sfo_aar.htm

As you can see, anything that takes them off visual approaches (VAPs) to 28L and 28R and departures off 01L and 01R starts to slow the place down, and delays ensue. Cloud decks and/or reduced visibilities (nowhere near ILS CAT-I minimums) can cause the loss of VAPs, and it's like losing use of one of the 28s. The distance between their centerlines is about 750 feet, and not enough to allow parallel ILS approaches (2,500 feet centerlines) or simultaneous ILS approaches (4,300 centerlines).

For available approaches, scroll to the bottom at: http://www.airnav.com/airport/KSFO
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
vikinga346
Topic Author
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RE: Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:55 pm

Thanks OPNLGuy, that is very useful.
...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
 
kimberlyRJ
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RE: Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:05 pm

Hello

I have flown into and out of KSFO many, many times and we almost always seem to use 28’s, however sometimes we have used runway 01R, which not often. BA of course use B744 aircraft on the SFO route.

Kimberly
 
mandargb
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RE: Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:22 am

SFO is pretty standard to have
1]
28 L / R for heavy international departures and 1 R / L for most local departures.
28 L/R for most arrivals.

2]
In winter when winds shift.
sometimes 10 R/L ALL departure.
19 R/L ALL arrivals.
3]
In rare situations
1 R/L arrival (approach on 28 and then circle to land) and departures.

4]
In extreme rare conditions
10 R/L arrivals and departures.

case #3 and #4 are interesting to watch.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:13 am



Quoting Mandargb (Reply 11):
19 R/L ALL arrivals.

That's a huge mess when it happens. There's only one ILS, so when that combined with cloudy weather, it really slows the flow of arrivals down and makes for plenty of holding and vectoring around...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Bellerophon
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RE: Heavies Taking Off From SFO

Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:15 am

VikingA346

...I understand that the runway in use will be determined according to the wind...

Generally yes. Sometimes however, in light winds, where ATC are already operating two or more runways for departure, pilots will elect to use a shorter runway that is much closer to their gate, rather than a longer runway that is much further away.

SFO is a good example of this, where flights departing from the international terminal may well request a departure from 01R rather than 28R. A B747-400 will handle a departure from 01R for LHR with ease, and I've done it several times.


...however, what if you have an extremely strong wind, say 010 @ 50mph...

Now that the wind has become such a significant factor, then I would suggest most aircraft would decline to use 28L/R and would request 01L/R.


...on a daily basis the heavies will request 28R if they are for some reason given 28L...

It's probably just because, knowing the 28s are in use, they've done the take-off performance calculations, and set up the FMS, for a departure from 28R. It's easier to taxi a little further than to re-calculate and re-program everything for a 28L departure!

Statistically, errors are more likely to creep in when re-calculating and re-loading performance figures whilst taxying-out than whilst parked at the gate, so in my experience most crews prefer to leave performance and route data alone, once the initial set up has been completed and cross-checked, unless it becomes necessary to change them.

The first accident to a B747 happened at SFO, for, broadly speaking, reasons similar to this.


Best regards

Bellerophon

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