richm
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Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:23 pm

Sorry to disappoint, but this thread is not about that commercial featuring an edited A320 landing!

I saw this video on youtube and was quite surprised, it looks somewhat different to your average landing video! The GPWS warnings were sounding left right and centre and touchdown was hard! I question whether or not it was a safe landing?

Makes an interesting watch anyway:


Enjoy

- Rich
 
extspotter
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:41 pm

Any landing you walk away from is a safe landing.
AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
 
EMBQA
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:58 pm

Although his approach speed looked a little fast maybe he had to keep it up because of the approach. You'll first hear the Auto Pilot Dis-engauge Alarm.... then the Altitude Alerter Alarm as they passes through the altitude they had pre-set (all normal) then you get the GPWS Alarms because he's flying through a valley...again.... normal. He does smack the runway a little hard... but again a lot of that is driven by the approch, wind conditions and his speed.

[Edited 2008-03-23 09:06:43]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
kimberlyRJ
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:09 pm

Hey

If the aircraft had been big (i.e. anything over a Avro 100/B737 or Airbus A319) then I would have been worried but with such a responsive Saab 340 I think it was with in safety parameters. What I would question is how the passengers felt about that landing, it did not look the most comfortable approach and landing – but as EXTspotter said any landing you walk away from is a safe landing (ish)…

Kimberly
 
Soku39
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:49 pm

I think the only way to decide whether that was safe or not is to see the approach plate, I'm assuming it's a visual, and that the approach follows that river through the valley as you come down, but I can't seem to find any plates for that airport. At any rate I couldn't tell you without being in the cockpit at the time and without having the plate, but there is a 99.9% that was a safe approach, with a sensationalized title on the video. I assume everyone walked away, and that the plane was reused, thereby making it a GOOD landing.  Smile

[Edited 2008-03-23 10:51:42]
The Ohio Player
 
cptspeaking
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:03 pm

Looked fine to me...the Saab is notorious for being a difficult airplane to make a smooth landing in also. The approach looked like it could have been planned a bit better, but they got it down in one piece...
...and don't call me Shirley!!
 
2H4
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:47 pm



Quoting Soku39 (Reply 4):
I'm assuming it's a visual, and that the approach follows that river through the valley as you come down

You assume correctly:

http://i28.tinypic.com/33nxe03.jpg
http://i26.tinypic.com/2w2r4mo.jpg


Quoting Soku39 (Reply 4):
there is a 99.9% that was a safe approach, with a sensationalized title on the video.

I agree. I'd be interested in hearing those labeling it a "dangerous" approach describe how it could be flown more safely.

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:02 pm

There is no way that is a normal speed video, it's definitely sped up. The saab has a really low approach speed and that is not the normal sight you'd see on final approach as far as speed. Not a dangerous landing.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:34 pm



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 7):
There is no way that is a normal speed video, it's definitely sped up.

Nope... it's real and at normal speed.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:38 pm

Not sure how that looked any different than any other airline video on youtube.

On touchdown, the camera always bounces around a lot, exaggerating the impact. Follow the fiver, land the plane, take off and do it again. Next
 
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UltimateDelta
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:09 pm

Since the plane could be used again, it was probably a good landing.
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Ward86IND
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:21 pm

I don't see anything dangerous about the approach. It was a visual approach through the valley and it's not like they got dangerously close to the terrain. As far as the sink rate warnings, that is also normal considering if you look at the chart it calls for a roughly 1200 fpm descent at the speed they were going. Also the video looks like normal speed to me, and with the continuous audio I don't see how it could have been sped up.
Live your dream.
 
FlyUSCG
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:43 pm

It was a completely safe landing and probably normal for that airport. How can I say it was safe? well... It was a VISUAL approach. The ground and all hills very CLEARLY visible and there is obviously no way around them. As for the landing itself, they probably had a wicked crosswind to be touching down with that much bank in.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 7):
There is no way that is a normal speed video, it's definitely sped up. The saab has a really low approach speed and that is not the normal sight you'd see on final approach as far as speed.

Do you fly Saab's? Not every approach is at the appropriate speeds and profiles, ESPECIALLY in turboprops. Thats the great thing about them, we can do way more and have a lot more fun than our RJ brothers. I've had captains come in at 40kts above Vref and then cut the power on about a 1/4 mile final and land perfectly on speed. As well as others that pretty much round off an entire visual approach and are never truly lined up with the runway until they are maybe 1000 feet from the end of it. I've also been at 6,000 downwind just past the end of the runway for 36R in CLT when tower said they had a slot if we could land from right there. Captain said of course (I was flying), we threw the props full forward, started a descent somewhere in the vicinity of 2500fpm and basically did a short approach from 5000' above the airport. And that was while I was on IOE! Gotta love the Dash.
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
lowrider
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:35 pm

While not typical , it looks safe enough to me. I wouldn't mind trying it myself sometime. I like the weird stuff.

EDIT: After taking a closer look at the terrain, I think this approach would probably be unusable in certain wind conditions. However, I am sure the operators that use it have taken that into consideration.

[Edited 2008-03-23 16:43:14]
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AirWillie6475
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:36 pm



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 12):
Do you fly Saab's? Not every approach is at the appropriate speeds and profiles, ESPECIALLY in turboprops. Thats the great thing about them, we can do way more and have a lot more fun than our RJ brothers. I've had captains come in at 40kts above Vref and then cut the power on about a 1/4 mile final and land perfectly on speed. As well as others that pretty much round off an entire visual approach and are never truly lined up with the runway until they are maybe 1000 feet from the end of it. I've also been at 6,000 downwind just past the end of the runway for 36R in CLT when tower said they had a slot if we could land from right there. Captain said of course (I was flying), we threw the props full forward, started a descent somewhere in the vicinity of 2500fpm and basically did a short approach from 5000' above the airport. And that was while I was on IOE! Gotta love the Dash.

If that was in normal speed then those guys were going way too fast for that type of approach you'd probably want to be as slow as possible so you can maneuver. If you're coming in to land in DFW with a 777 behind you then yes you should be going fast in a tprop. And yes I do have Tprop experience those 10K downwind approaches were fun. Smile
 
EMBQA
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:48 pm

There are several videos taken at the same airport from... I guess the same person... very cool stuff. Anyone know where that is,,,??
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
2H4
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:57 pm



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 14):
If that was in normal speed then those guys were going way too fast for that type of approach

How fast were they going?

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:59 am



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 16):
How fast were they going?

Give me a break...
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:06 am



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 15):
There are several videos taken at the same airport from... I guess the same person... very cool stuff. Anyone know where that is,,,??

Isola D'Elba. An island in the Mediterranean (off Tuscany) famous for being the site of Napoleon's first exile.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
lowrider
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:50 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 16):
How fast were they going

Asked a buddy of mine that used to fly the Swedish Concorde. He said that ref speeds could vary from about 110 to about 135 knots. They might have carried a little extra speed for maneuvering margin or wind gusts.

[Edited 2008-03-23 19:51:53]
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2H4
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:25 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 19):
Asked a buddy of mine that used to fly the Swedish Concorde. He said that ref speeds could vary from about 110 to about 135 knots. They might have carried a little extra speed for maneuvering margin or wind gusts.

Ah, thanks. It's tough to judge with any shred of accuracy just how fast they were going on that grainy, shaky, 425x225 pixel Youtube video.  Smile

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
BWilliams
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:54 pm



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 12):
As for the landing itself, they probably had a wicked crosswind to be touching down with that much bank in.

Looking at the plate that 2H4 posted, it looks normal to bank right before the runway... the approach isn't aligned to the runway until maybe 1500ft before the end of the runway, but is about 30 degrees off. It looks like they might have overshot the turn SLIGHTLY, but considering they're trying to watch their speed, sinkrate, and distance from the runway, it's close enough.

My question: a 10.2% glide path seems really high... is that somewhat common for visual landings, or is that just in this case because of the surrounding terrain?
Regards, Brad Williams
 
Dufo
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:25 pm

I worked on Elba island in 2006 and most of our approaches with L410 were on runway 16 because of prevailing winds. We never performed straight-in approaches over the mountain (unlike Interflug Dash8-300's!).

Landing itself is is not really dangerous but interesting because of double turns in the valley. Takeoff from the opposite side is also nice Big grin Marina di Campo is strictly VFR anyways.

You can see one of our approaches here: (beginning at 4:40)

I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
 
Dufo
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:54 pm

Apologies... I meant Intersky, not Interflug Big grin
I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
 
GRZ-AIR
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:09 pm



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 12):
Gotta love the Dash.

There is a nice saying about the Dash ... whatever you see below, you can reach  Wink !

You should check out the Intersky DVD landing at ELBA.. spectacular:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marc Michel

When I joined A.net it was still free, haha ;).
 
skywatch
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:51 pm

Also bear in mind that the camera was zoomed out to a wider angle than most cockpit videos are filmed from. This will always create an appearance of greater speed. The touchdown was a little rough, but all in all, it looked fine to me.

---Skywatch
------Forever Watchin' The Sky------
 
Boeing747_600
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:01 pm

Other than what appeared to be a slightly late and perhaps insufficient flare, there was nothing dangerous about the landing. There is the perception of them being somewhat low on finals, but without a PAPI/VASI reference, one cannot say for sure.

[Edited 2008-03-25 16:02:13]
 
Max Q
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:30 pm

I flew the SAAB a lifetime ago, good ship.

This crew did a good job, terrain warnings MAY be acceptable if you can see all the terrain which they obviously could.

Not a firm landing either, I remember quite stiff struts on the -340, and in any case, more important to put it down on that short runway.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
MissedApproach
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RE: Is This A Dangerous Landing?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:10 am



Quoting Max Q (Reply 27):
more important to put it down on that short runway.

Exactly. I'd rather a firm arrival in the touchdown zone than a greaser that's long by 1000 feet.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 27):
terrain warnings MAY be acceptable if you can see all the terrain

Could some of those be caused if the airplane was not configured for landing (ie, late gear deployment)?

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 12):
Gotta love the Dash.

I do!  bigthumbsup 
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