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c8j2h
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Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:26 pm

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/04/03/boeing-hydrogen-plane.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7330311.stm

Apparently the first plane in aviation history to be fueled by a hydrogen battery.

Very interesting, but why deny that this would serve the purpose of developing larger aircraft if the technology eventually becomes refined enough for use in smaller planes? Especially with a company like Boeing being in the business of developing larger aircraft for the demands of an industry requiring lower fuel costs.

[Edited 2008-04-04 11:28:51]
 
A346Dude
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:29 pm

Cool stuff. I assume you can only use this type of technology to turn a propeller, so really the only current application is turboprop-sized aircraft.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:47 am



Quoting C8j2h (Thread starter):
Very interesting, but why deny that this would serve the purpose of developing larger aircraft if the technology eventually becomes refined enough for use in smaller planes?

At the moment, there's still an immense energy density problem. No known or forecasted battery + fuel cell technology can achieve the required energy density that's needed for a commercial airliner. This doesn't mean it won't happen, obviously, but there's a huge scalability issue that nobody knows how to surmount yet.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 1):
Cool stuff. I assume you can only use this type of technology to turn a propeller

It would work with a turbofan too...just need a bigger electric motor.

Tom.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:11 pm

The big challenge with hydrogen isn't weight. In fact, it has more energy per weight than any other fuel. The problem is volume. A given volume of liquid hydrogen has about 1/8 the energy of Jet A. Someone also reported that they found a way to store hydrogen within a metallic matrix (not a tank, but actually within the metal crystal matrix) with the same density as hydrogen in a tank but at a lighter total weight and less risk of a leak. Such a system could also be formed into almost any shape desired (rather than needing to be cylindrical). Still, while the fuel is lighter, it takes up eight times the volume, which would limit space for cargo and passengers. Either that or you'd have to start getting really creative about where you were storing it in the airframe.

The beauty of hydrogen is that it can be an almost emissions-free. The emission of hydrogen combustion is water vapor. Now, water vapor is a greenhouse gas, but if the hydrogen is obtained from hydrolyzing water, then there is no overall change in hydrosphere composition. If the electricity for hydrolyzing the water comes from a clean source, such as hydro, wind, solar, or nuclear, then no fossil fuels would have to be burned to fly the plane. The problem is that any combustion in Earth's atmosphere is going to make nitrogen oxides, too.

Actually, in theory a fuel cell could fly a turbofan. The thrust from a turbofan comes from the fan, not from the jet. Thus, if you could somehow manage to make a strong enough fuel cell to spin a fan that quickly, you would have an emissions-free jet (it would exhaust liquid water, which could be dumped in flight and would probably evaporate before it hit the ground). Of course, such powerful fuel cells do not exist at present.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:17 pm

Has Boeing considered the effects of the greenhouse thing-a-roo?
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Slovacek747
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:24 pm

As stated above, water vapor is a greenhouse gas which can do just as much damage to the earth/atmosphere as CO2 and other gases.

I can see it now. 20 years down the road, the left wing environmental idiots will be causing a stir for us to stop using hydrogen/water as we are damaging the environment.  Sad

Slovacek747
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:25 pm

What greenhouse thing-a-roo?

Water vapor is a greenhouse gas, but that is only significant if this would increase the overall amount of water vapor in earth's atmosphere. As long as the hydrogen used comes from water in the first place, then it would have no effect on the overall water balance in the hydrosphere. It's not like CO2, where we're digging a bunch of carbon out of the ground and dumping it into the air, where it's not supposed to be.
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flexo
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:35 pm

Why do they take the detour of generating electiricity first and then use an electric engine? Couldn''t the hydrogen just as well be used in an internal combustion engine?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:34 pm



Quoting Flexo (Reply 7):
Why do they take the detour of generating electiricity first and then use an electric engine? Couldn''t the hydrogen just as well be used in an internal combustion engine?

I'm neither an aeronautical engineer nor a physicist, but...

My understanding is that the reason that internal combustion engines are no longer used in commercial aircraft is because the weight-to-power ratio and efficiency is more favorable with a gas turbine engine than with an internal combustion (piston) engine. To spin a turbofan with an internal combustion engine would require an enormous engine with many moving parts (a gas turbine engine really has only one or two moving parts: the shafts). It would then require a gearbox because an internal combustion engine doesn't have as high a range of speeds and cannot generate enough RPM directly to spin a turbofan fast enough to provide thrust. That's why internal combustion engines don't power 777's. Turbines also cause less vibration than pistons.

So the next question is whether to burn the hydrogen directly in a gas turbine engine, which would essentially be a minor modification of a current gas turbine engine, or whether to use a fuel cell to generate the electricity.

A fuel cell is actually more efficient, I believe, than a gas turbine engine, at least theoretically, because it generates less heat. However, at this point, you would have to have an enormous number of state-of-the-art fuel cells to generate enough power to fly an A380. I'm not sure such an aircraft could even get off the ground! Perhaps in the future when we can make smaller, lighter, and more powerful fuel cells, this could be a possibility.
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flexo
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:35 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
My understanding is that the reason that internal combustion engines are no longer used in commercial aircraft is because the weight-to-power ratio and efficiency is more favorable with a gas turbine engine than with an internal combustion (piston) engine. To spin a turbofan with an internal combustion engine would require an enormous engine with many moving parts (a gas turbine engine really has only one or two moving parts: the shafts).

I am aware of that, I was hinting at Boeing's test aircraft which would normally have a propeller driven piston engine.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
A fuel cell is actually more efficient, I believe, than a gas turbine engine, at least theoretically, because it generates less heat.

Not that I am claiming to be an expert in that field, but couldn't fuel cells also be fueled by common Jet-A fuel? So what I am wondering is, why are they trying to use hydrogen as a supplier of elictricity for electric engines instead of burning it directly in the engines like they are doing now with hydrocarbons.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:40 am



Quoting Flexo (Reply 9):
Not that I am claiming to be an expert in that field, but couldn't fuel cells also be fueled by common Jet-A fuel? So what I am wondering is, why are they trying to use hydrogen as a supplier of elictricity for electric engines instead of burning it directly in the engines like they are doing now with hydrocarbons.

To my knowledge, you could not fuel a fuel cell with a hydrocarbon fuel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#Types_of_fuel_cells

The wiki explains it better than I can.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:39 am



Quoting Flexo (Reply 7):
Couldn''t the hydrogen just as well be used in an internal combustion engine?

The efficiency is a lot lower. Fuel cells are a chemical reaction that goes directly from chemical to electrical energy. IC engines go from chemical to thermal to mechanical to electrical (assuming you're powering a generator), and the thermo cycle has a maximum efficiency that's a lot lower than any other the others.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):

My understanding is that the reason that internal combustion engines are no longer used in commercial aircraft is because the weight-to-power ratio and efficiency is more favorable with a gas turbine engine than with an internal combustion (piston) engine.

You can build piston engines with the required power, but the biggest reason that piston engines died out and jets took over is the greatly improved speed and reliability. With piston engines, the reliability goes down as the size goes up. For today's commercial airliners, you'd be failing engines all over the place on a regular basis (this was the norm for the last generation of piston transports). Jets are *far* more reliable. The ability to go faster and higher helps too.

Quoting Flexo (Reply 9):
Not that I am claiming to be an expert in that field, but couldn't fuel cells also be fueled by common Jet-A fuel? So what I am wondering is, why are they trying to use hydrogen as a supplier of elictricity for electric engines instead of burning it directly in the engines like they are doing now with hydrocarbons.

Fuel cell's can't use the carbon in Jet-A, but they can be fed Jet-A and produce electricity. For low temperature cells, you need a reformer to convert the Jet-A to CO2 and H2 and then feed the H2 to the fuel cell. For high temperature cells, they can basically self-reform but the overall reaction it the same.

The reason they're going with hydrogen here is that 1) they're trying to push the green aspect, which doesn't work if you're using Jet-A, 2) cells which can run on straight Jet-A probably aren't technologically ready for aircraft installation, and 3) there's not much technology to be demonstrated in running a combustion engine on H2...it's pretty trivial.

Tom.
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:51 am



Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 5):
20 years down the road, the left wing environmental idiots will be causing a stir for us to stop using hydrogen/water as we are damaging the environment.

I dont think so . Instead, by then, Jet A might be made from Algae biofuel , and you and I will both be driving electric cars or biofuel hybrids. Nobody will use gas because it will be too expensive.

Where do you think the price of oil will be in 5, 10 or even 15 years from now? Sooner rather than later, all these alternative energy ideas will be embraced, not because their environmentally " friendly"; but because they'll be much cheaper than fossil fuel.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:27 am



Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 5):
As stated above, water vapor is a greenhouse gas which can do just as much damage to the earth/atmosphere as CO2 and other gases.

No it can't because the water exhausted is produced by hydrolyzing water. As long as we don't use hydrogen from other sources (methane hydrates, etc.) we introduce no new H2O into the hydrosphere and thus cause no greenhouse effect.

And this isn't about left or right wing. This is about saving the human race and civilization as we know it.
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Francoflier
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:11 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
So the next question is whether to burn the hydrogen directly in a gas turbine engine, which would essentially be a minor modification of a current gas turbine engine, or whether to use a fuel cell to generate the electricity.

That reminds me of those crazy projects from Airbus and others back in the 90's of H2 powered jets with huge Hydrogen tanks in the roof of the A/C or under the wings...



Or this one by Daimler and Tupolev:


Running a jet engine on Hydrogen is not really a challenge, nor is it a technological step up, but so far it would still be the only way to make an airliner fly on H2. A fuel cell that would generate as much power as a CF-6 would still weigh way too much.

The only problem then is to store enough hydrogen, and do it safely enough to give it any range and not be a high speed Hindenburg. By judging on how fast those projects made it to the bin, I'd say this technology is also far out of reach.

Boeing is not excluding using fuel cell in civilian airliners in the future though, as a replacement for APU or engine driven electricity generators.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:21 am



Quote:
as it produces only harmless water vapor as a byproduct.

Ironic, considering it's also the #1 greenhouse gas. Can't wait until some eco-freako tries gets that all twisted as well.
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sibille
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:37 am

I think Tupolev has a modified Tu-154 with hydrogen engine (at least one of three). It's not new and some photos must be avaible on the net (even here maybe
 
LockstockNL777
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:46 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
No it can't because the water exhausted is produced by hydrolyzing water. As long as we don't use hydrogen from other sources (methane hydrates, etc.) we introduce no new H2O into the hydrosphere and thus cause no greenhouse effect.

indeed

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 15):
Ironic, considering it's also the #1 greenhouse gas. Can't wait until some eco-freako tries gets that all twisted as wel

read the above, you can not make more water from water...

And what do you suggest otherwise concordeboy? I know you are a bit put off by this idea because it is supported by "eco-freakies". And I get the feeling you have the urge to keep as much distance between yourself and anything that has anything to do with "eco-freakies". But we should just stop flying around the globe?!

Sorry if I am a bit harsh here, but as you might know my country is for 50% below sea level. As sea levels rise there is a possibility that a big part of my country and the complete city I live in will be fishfood. So I kind of sympathise with "eco-freakies" that at least have the feeling something has to be done. And I applaud these initiatives by Boeing, Virgin and Airbus! But I guess you are a true oil-freakie, the kind of person I percieve as "twisted"..
 
osiris30
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:49 pm



Quoting SIBILLE (Reply 16):
I think Tupolev has a modified Tu-154 with hydrogen engine (at least one of three). It's not new and some photos must be avaible on the net (even here maybe

I think that was liquid natural gas?
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tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:12 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):

And this isn't about left or right wing. This is about saving the human race and civilization as we know it.

Let's not overstate the problem here. Under the worst case scenarios the environmental effects are severe, but they're not extinction level. We're talking about gradual widespread flooding over years and major shifts in vegetation and weather, not turning the Earth into Venus.

Humans will survive just fine from this...we might kill ourselves in other ways, but that's a different problem.

Tom.
 
WPIAeroGuy
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:06 pm

If all the H2 and O2 is going to come from water, then isn't the same amount of energy spent making the fuel as getting it out? Admittedly I haven't done a ton of research, but even if fuel cells become extremely efficient, because the fuel will have to come from the hydolysis of water then there would be wasted energy. Hydrocarbons have basically been created before us, and provide lots of energy with minimal comparative refinement. Are people assuming that if the H2 and O2 are formed from renewable energy, then this problem is acceptable? I would make sense that it would be and could at least be an interim solution until the next energy discovery came around.
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flexo
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:10 pm



Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 20):
Are people assuming that if the H2 and O2 are formed from renewable energy, then this problem is acceptable? I would make sense that it would be and could at least be an interim solution until the next energy discovery came around.

The real advantage would be the independence of fossil energy sources which will eventually run out. Hydrolysis of water will create a water cycle which will never end. As a power source for generating the hydrogen one could rely on i.e. nuclear, sun or wind energy. It would also be very advantegous strategically to be independent of middle east countries for energy.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:19 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
My understanding is that the reason that internal combustion engines are no longer used in commercial aircraft is because the weight-to-power ratio and efficiency is more favorable with a gas turbine engine than with an internal combustion (piston) engine.

I'm going to nitpick here. Jet engines are internal combustion engines.

For an example of external combustion, look at steam engines.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
WPIAeroGuy
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:41 am



Quoting Flexo (Reply 21):
Hydrolysis of water will create a water cycle which will never end.

The fuel that goes in the vehicle will never run out yes, but tremendous more amouts of energy will be needed to be generated. Using hyrolisis means that twice the energy will be spent to do the same amount of work as fossil fuels (give or take what refining uses) 1. Convert water into H2 and O2, and then 2. Recombine it in a fuel cell to power vehicle/machin etc. Unless people start learning the facts about nuclear energy, I don't see any other type of power plant becoming dominant enough to double our energy production.

On the other hand, if all the sources of energy are renewable and enough could be generated, it really doesn't matter how many resources it takes. I just don't feel that fuel cells are revolutionary enough to power vehicles for more than 10-25 years. I am confident either a new form of power generation or energy storage will come about within that time frame that will render
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Starlionblue
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:13 am



Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 23):
I am confident either a new form of power generation or energy storage will come about within that time frame that will render

I think the black helicopter crews got him. He obviously knew too much.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
WPIAeroGuy
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:55 pm

Ha ha whoops, I don't know what happened there. I was going to say it will render all contemporary forms of energy obsolete, such as combustion of hydrocarbons. I wish I knew what it was, but I don't; I just have a feeling something big is going to come around soon.
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cedarjet
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:16 pm



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 12):
Where do you think the price of oil will be in 5, 10 or even 15 years from now?

I think we'll be looking at $150 / barrel by the end of the summer. In five years? God knows. (It probably won't be priced in USD by then. Part of the reason for the spike to where we are now, $107 or whatever, is cos the USD has lost value. If the USD keeps sliding it probably won't be the only currency oil is sold in.) I am very pessimistic about the immediate future of energy supplies. Humanity has had a very easy ride in the last 100 or so years, we didn't blow ourselves up by testing the bomb, or by pointing loads of them at each other, or in god knows how many other scientific experiments, no really major natural disaster. So we assume the transition to a post oil energy economy will be effortless, that the gigantic technological breakthroughs we need will happen right when we need them or before. Truth is, if Saudi can't raise oil production (I suspect they're at the peak right now), the price is going to go so high that our economies will simply collapse and our way of life will end. There is no reason why that can't happen. A hydrogen energy economy is decades away. And while I'm not an expert, surely you need another energy source to charge up the hydrogen? Is hydrogen not an energy carrier, rather than the hoped-for energy source? So it's energy negative? Anyway let's say we can make it work, it's decades away. I don't think we have anything like that long before the oil gives out. There was the beginning of this discussion the other day in the main aviation forum ("What is the future of aviation?") but some over-zealous moderator nixed it. We really need to address it.

Speaking of addressing these very serious issues, why are some Americans so hostile to anyone who is concerned about our future and how we treat our habitat so it isn't completely destroyed that they have to brand anyone holding such ideas with name-calling and insults? Surely "tree hugger" is a great compliment?

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 5):
left wing environmental idiots



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 15):
eco-freako

fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
cedarjet
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:01 pm

PS I suspect the Future Of Aviation thread hit the cutting room floor cos it drifted into oil and energy and away from aviation, but this stuff does belong in the av forums cos even though it's an existential threat to our societies, as fans of aviation, employed by the industry and / or regular travellers, this energy crisis and specifically it's immediate threat to the supply of transport fuels, it will affect us more, and sooner (AH, TZ, Skybus) than other people.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
flexo
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:10 pm



Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 26):
Speaking of addressing these very serious issues, why are some Americans so hostile to anyone who is concerned about our future and how we treat our habitat so it isn't completely destroyed that they have to brand anyone holding such ideas with name-calling and insults? Surely "tree hugger" is a great compliment?

I don't think tree hugger is a compliment as trees are basically a natural resource and hugging resources seems silly too me.
As to why are they hostile? Because the "eco freakos" as they were called earlier think they know everything better and try to impose their view of the world on others. I don't quite agree that we are destroying our natural habitat by using its resources. Will it get warmer by higher CO2 emissions? Maybe, but far from proven. And if so, I'm sure the human race will even then not be doomed as we are made to believe.

Back to aviation: I think we will see hydrogen powered airplanes eventually, simply because there is no other alternative. The only other feasible possibility, biologically grown hydrocarbons, have the disadvantage of taking up too much valuable farm space which is needed for food.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:08 am



Quoting Flexo (Reply 28):
The only other feasible possibility, biologically grown hydrocarbons, have the disadvantage of taking up too much valuable farm space which is needed for food.

Hence the nice possibilities of algae...there's a whole lot of ocean out there, and a whole lot of un-arable land where you can stick a pond of water.

Tom.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:34 am

How about sticking collectors to the bums of all the cows? Lot's of methane plus a significant decrease in greenhouse gas production.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
flexo
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:41 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 29):
Hence the nice possibilities of algae...there's a whole lot of ocean out there, and a whole lot of un-arable land where you can stick a pond of water.

Interesting, do you know of any projects that are testing the feasibility of turning algae into fuel of some sort?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:30 am



Quoting Flexo (Reply 31):

Interesting, do you know of any projects that are testing the feasibility of turning algae into fuel of some sort?

Sheehan, John, et. al., “A look back at the U.S. Department of Energy’s Aquatic Species Program –
Biodiesel from Algae,” NREL/TP-580-24190, July 1998

Good overview at: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/environment/pdf/alt_fuels.pdf

Tom.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Pla

Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:30 pm

Quoting Flexo (Reply 31):
Interesting, do you know of any projects that are testing the feasibility of turning algae into fuel of some sort?

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tec...ond.scum.fuel.cnn?iref=videosearch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyoKTbxerpQ&feature=related

[Edited 2008-04-12 15:43:33]
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lehpron
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:12 am

Quoting C8j2h (Thread starter):
Very interesting, but why deny that this would serve the purpose of developing larger aircraft if the technology eventually becomes refined enough for use in smaller planes? Especially with a company like Boeing being in the business of developing larger aircraft for the demands of an industry requiring lower fuel costs.

Since having taken a business & economics class in college I ask the question "why can't they" of companies less, as I have a good idea why: Money and Market. Technically the technology exists to make just about anything, but someone has to buy it, even if it were just research, it has to pay off somehow. Applied new technology is usually expensive and doesn't provide the luxuries of mass market products. An airliner running on fuel cells could be made, but the unit costs could be well beyond the US's stealth bombers or even a Mars mission. It probably won't have the speed, range or payload of an equal-weight modern airlienr

The technology has to mature to get anywhere, companies/organizations don't start small or cheap out of choice, per se. In a business, this technology maturity naturally occurs over time ** and with each product iteration, customer response and new methods of design and construction found, the tech can get cheaper. Most of all, there has to be enough customers to buy it (be it an airline or numbers of passengers or a private company) so the company can claim they made money off them (proving a market exists, i.e reason for competition), otherwise the ball doesn't start rolling.

** The only way to speed this time up is through a major investment (either time spent or money spent, whether yours or someone else's).

It can be said that Boeing believes in fuelcells for airplanes to pursue it (yes there are techs that few believe in to pursue; if anyone asks, the reason is lack of faith, IMO, as there are too few good examples to make people crave the tech. If you know me, I'm talking about SST's. There are too many aviation-atheists out there).

Though it could also be a need to make Boeing look more green than blue.

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 23):
Using hyrolisis means that twice the energy will be spent to do the same amount of work as fossil fuels (give or take what refining uses)

This is why I am a proponent of Geo-thermal power, as the energy needed to run the system would be free apart from ROI of the generator station itself. Really, efficiency of the process only seems like a big deal if we are limited by energy going in. I'm not justifying being wasteful, just leave those precious and sensitive jobs (like grid power or hydrolysis) to the near-infinite heat source that is Earth's underground through power generation. I realize GTP won't work everywhere, I'm not saying it will be an end-all, just an option apart from solar or wind, and other green-techs that I feel more confident about.

[Edited 2008-04-15 22:37:14]
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flexo
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:38 pm



Quoting Lehpron (Reply 34):
just an option apart from solar or wind, and other green-techs that I feel more confident about.

Actually producing hydrogen might be just the thing for wind power as the biggest problem really is the fluctuating availability of wind as an energy source. Also most of the wind is usually available at sea so both energy and water would be available.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing Experimenting With Hydrogen Powered Plane

Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:02 pm



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 15):

Ironic, considering it's also the #1 greenhouse gas. Can't wait until some eco-freako tries gets that all twisted as well.

Remember, it's only a greenhouse gas if it adds to the total water content of the atmosphere. If the hydrogen comes from electrolysis of water, then it is not a contributor to the greenhouse effect.

Even if we could pull energy directly from the vacuum (which is a theoretical possibility), we would still run into an issue with global warming from waste heat.
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