Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
ALexeu
Topic Author
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:44 pm

My friend, who is studying aviation law, told me that thrust reversers are illegal in Europe if the aircraft can stop with spoilers and brakes. Since he is not an aviation geek, I explained him that a lot of aircrafts in Europe use thrust reversers, but he still didn't believe me. He said that t/r are too dangerous because if one of the engines doesn't fully reverse, the aircraft can slip from runway.
So, are t/r legal to use in Europe?

p.s. I am talking about after touch-down t/r use, and only if the aircraft could stop with spoilers and brakes.

Regards
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:53 pm

Your friend is wrong on two accounts.

First, reverse thrust is permitted. It is not going to be banned by a regulatory agency because of the possibility of asymmetric thrust. The manufacturer has to test and certify the operation of thrust reversers. Pilots deploy thrust reversers and only after they are deployed are the engines spooled up. A backup for a failure of a thrust reverser is differential braking, nose wheel steering and rudder control.

Second of all, landing distances do not take into account for reverse thrust. It is a nice benefit to reduce stopping distance or to improve brake life, but reverse thrust is not calculated into landing roll distance. Planes can always land and stop exclusively with brakes.

There is no way that thrust reversers would be on airplanes if they were not allowed to be used. They are a heavy addition to the airplane. Airplanes are incredibly weight conscious. Fractions of a pound are examined. Thrust reversers do have a benefit and are used at the airline/pilot's discretion.

Now to argue a different side, they may be banned from being used during night operations at some airports. They are loud when the engine is spooled up and some airports may not permit their use at night due to noise curfews and ordinances, but I personally don't know of any airports like that.

[Edited 2008-04-07 07:58:11]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:53 pm

Horse Manure.

They are not illegal.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 5108
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:53 pm


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Daniel Nicholson


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Simon Curtis


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Raymond Wang


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Henry Lidster


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dickson Ching - HKAEC



I think your law student friend needs a new major, or at least to spend more time studying and less time at the campus bar!
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:01 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Thread starter):
My friend, who is studying aviation law, told me that thrust reversers are illegal in Europe if the aircraft can stop with spoilers and brakes. Since he is not an aviation geek, I explained him that a lot of aircrafts in Europe use thrust reversers, but he still didn't believe me. He said that t/r are too dangerous because if one of the engines doesn't fully reverse, the aircraft can slip from runway.
So, are t/r legal to use in Europe?

1) There is no prohibition on reverser on aircraft in Europe (EU I assume you mean?). Quite a few airports have restrictions on the use of reverse thrust during certain hours. The restriction can range from reverse idle to no reverse above a certain N1 or EPR setting.

2) The restrictions are all qualified with a statement that would read "unless needed in the judgement of the PIC" or "unless needed for operational reasons". So again, there is nothing "illegal" about thrust reversers.

3) Finally there is no danger from asymmetrical reverse. In fact, some airlines have, on 3/4 engine, no prohibition from using asymmetrical reverse on landing.

My advice to your friend would to go back and re-read whatever law book he got his information from. He must have missed something the first time around.
Fly fast, live slow
 
chksix
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:16 pm

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:55 pm

He might have mixed up the FAA law that forbids including R/T in the landing distance?
The conveyor belt plane will fly
 
ALexeu
Topic Author
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:26 pm

Thanks for replies.

I got what I was expecting, but how am I going to convince him ?! He claims that most photos are not ordinary flights  Yeah sure

When I said that r/t creates sudden noise after touchdown, he said that, that sound could be something else...

Regards
 
avioniker
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 5:38 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:04 pm

Is your friend taking the course next semester that outlines Space Law prohibiting human presence on the Moon necessitating staging the moon landings in Hollywood sound stage sets?
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2493
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:19 pm



Quoting Avioniker (Reply 7):
Is your friend taking the course next semester that outlines Space Law prohibiting human presence on the Moon necessitating staging the moon landings in Hollywood sound stage sets?

That's a hoot!! It really was in Hollywood, wasn't it??  sarcastic 

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 6):
I got what I was expecting, but how am I going to convince him ?! He claims that most photos are not ordinary flights

When I said that r/t creates sudden noise after touchdown, he said that, that sound could be something else...

Sounds like I would just drop it, you won't win this arguement with him. Forget it.

Quoting Chksix (Reply 5):
He might have mixed up the FAA law that forbids including R/T in the landing distance?

I think some carriers do use it for landing data.
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:40 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 6):
I got what I was expecting, but how am I going to convince him ?! He claims that most photos are not ordinary flights

You have to be very careful when talking to brick walls. Sometimes people can get confused and think you are the idiot.
Phrogs Phorever
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:48 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Thread starter):
So, are t/r legal to use in Europe?

If they were NOT, then I would be in prison already! I used the T/R in about 730 landings in Europe!! 730 times life sentence for me for using the T/R in Europe!

Of course they are allowed! Some airports just don't like them because they are pretty loud! But it is NOT forbidden to use them!

And I just used them again about 1.5 hours ago! FULL reverse thrust Big grin Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20606
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:13 am



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 6):

I got what I was expecting, but how am I going to convince him ?! He claims that most photos are not ordinary flights

Tell him to go out to an airport and seefor himself.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 6):
When I said that r/t creates sudden noise after touchdown, he said that, that sound could be something else...

The sound of all the passengers farting in unison? He's grasping at straws...

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 8):
Sounds like I would just drop it, you won't win this arguement with him. Forget it.



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 9):

You have to be very careful when talking to brick walls. Sometimes people can get confused and think you are the idiot.

Never argue with an idiot. He'll just drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8573
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:02 am



Quoting AlexEU (Thread starter):
My friend, who is studying aviation law, told me that thrust reversers are illegal in Europe if the aircraft can stop with spoilers and brakes.

All aircraft, by law (in both the US and Europe), have to be able to stop with brakes alone. Therefore, if your friend were right, all thrust reversers would be illegal.

Quoting AlexEU (Thread starter):
He said that t/r are too dangerous because if one of the engines doesn't fully reverse, the aircraft can slip from runway.

That's a design condition. The differential thrust from uneven reverse is not nearly as big an issue as engine failure at takeoff, and all airliners have to be able to take that.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 1):
There is no way that thrust reversers would be on airplanes if they were not allowed to be used. They are a heavy addition to the airplane.

And they're a maintenance pain in the @#%[email protected]

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 6):

I got what I was expecting, but how am I going to convince him ?!

1) Show him the FAR (or EASA equivalent) that requires that you be able to stop using brakes alone.
2) Show him a plane that can stop with brakes alone using reversers.
3) Make him show you the law he's talking about (he can't because it doesn't exist).
4) Go to the pub and do something more productive than arguing with someone this intransigent.

Tom.
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:47 pm

If you can get your hands on some Jepp plates, you could show him the noise abatement section for any one of many airports where it says that "reverse thrust above idle should not be used unless necessary for safety of flight". There alone he would be wrong because idle reverse is still reverse.
Proud OOTSK member
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30120
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:07 pm

I guess your friend mixed his regulations with Restricted T/R use at certain Airports due Noise restrictions.
T/Rs are built for a purpose & can be used.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:15 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
T/Rs are built for a purpose & can be used.

And must be used if necessary! Even if it's only idle reverse!

If I imagine I wouldn't be allowed to use the T/R on the MD11F with MLAW on a rather short runway: damn, we would get brake overheat nearly all the time! With the T/R we can avoid that... Thank god!

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
ALexeu
Topic Author
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:21 pm

I gave him some photos and info about t/r ! He said he will have to check it will somebody, so he could be 100% sure....

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 10):
If they were NOT, then I would be in prison already! I used the T/R in about 730 landings in Europe!! 730 times life sentence for me for using the T/R in Europe!

Do you count (or do you have logbook space for r/t) each time you use r/t ?  biggrin 

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 8):
That's a hoot!! It really was in Hollywood, wasn't it??



Quoting Avioniker (Reply 7):
Is your friend taking the course next semester that outlines Space Law prohibiting human presence on the Moon necessitating staging the moon landings in Hollywood sound stage sets?

or perhaps Bollywood. He can't beat me !
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:43 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 16):
Do you count (or do you have logbook space for r/t) each time you use r/t ?

Easy, 100% of the time. As a minimum, it's at least minimum reverse, sometimes more, but never less.
Fly fast, live slow
 
ALexeu
Topic Author
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:38 pm

My friend contacted aeronautical engineer, who explained me that I was wrong, with his 60s book !! They obviously don't believe a.netters nor themselves. I don't want to argue anymore.

Regards
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:41 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 16):
Do you count (or do you have logbook space for r/t) each time you use r/t ? biggrin

I think only once I haven't used the t/r because it was inop... And yes I have a logbook where I keep track of all my flights... And I always use t/r on landing...

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 18):
They obviously don't believe a.netters nor themselves. I don't want to argue anymore.

He does not need to believe a.netters, but he SHOULD believe Pilots who do that everyday!  Wink

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20606
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:56 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 18):
My friend contacted aeronautical engineer, who explained me that I was wrong, with his 60s book !! They obviously don't believe a.netters nor themselves. I don't want to argue anymore.

 rotfl  Talk about data mining.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:11 am

Guess I will just keep breaking the law.
Proud OOTSK member
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:42 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 21):
Guess I will just keep breaking the law.

 highfive  yeah, me too!

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
LASoctoberB6
Posts: 1936
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:23 pm

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:42 pm

As my sister and I say, you can't convince the stupid.
[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:09 pm

Since we are correcting mistaken notions:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 12):
All aircraft, by law (in both the US and Europe), have to be able to stop with brakes alone.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Show him the FAR (or EASA equivalent) that requires that you be able to stop using brakes alone.

Speaking for US FARs, not correct. Part 25 "Airworthiness Standards for Transport Category Airplanes" permits, for both rejected takeoff and for landing that means other than wheel brakes may be used in the calculations so long as that means is 'safe and reliable' and 'is used so that consistent results can be expected in service' and is such that 'exceptional skill is not required in controlling the aircraft.'

The main reason airlines and manufacturers don't use reverse thrust or arresting gear, for that matter, is that whatever you do use must be operational for each takeoff and landing or performance penalties will apply. It is, operationally easier simply not to rely of them to meet required performance. We can then use reverse thrust to extend brake life or make the occasional early turnoff.

And yes it is permitted in Europe, subject to certain conditional restrictions.

* * *


And

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 16):
or perhaps Bollywood.

I think under the current spelling convention it is Mullywood now.

* * *


As for asymmetric reverse, you know it is not like we press a 'reverse' button and go out for coffee. We pull the handles back into that range and then use EPR or N1 to set the amount of reverse thrust we need.

It is permitted during this operation to reduce the thrust on the operative engine if one quietly goes to sleep during the transition.

Slam
"Jake Brake MAX please"
Click

(Hello friends, yes I'm bored)
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:42 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 24):
Slam
"Jake Brake MAX please"
Click

(Hello friends, yes I'm bored)

Long time, no see.

Hope you are well.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:37 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 6):
I got what I was expecting, but how am I going to convince him ?!

Ask him to prove it to you. Ask him what law makes it illegal. Ask for a citation and post it here. This should be interesting.

You're being asked to prove a negative - that a law doesn't exist. Ask him to prove the affirmative. It should be very easy for him.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:40 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 26):

Oh yeah that would be interesting for sure! Because I can sue every airline then for acting illegal! MONEY MONEY! Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
musapapaya
Posts: 1035
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:02 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:13 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 10):
And I just used them again about 1.5 hours ago! FULL reverse thrust

Hey Wilco, you should avoid using Full reverse, to save up some fuel? Isnt idle reverse good enough? Fuel is expensive now dude! LOL!!
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:14 pm



Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 28):
Hey Wilco, you should avoid using Full reverse, to save up some fuel? Isnt idle reverse good enough? Fuel is expensive now dude! LOL!!

Yupp, that's true! But an MD11F with MLAW (222.9 tons) and only idle reverse usually ends up in hot brakes! And then you need to change the brakes earlier than needed, which is expensive as well! So if you use reverse thrust and brakes together, then it's the optimum! That's what we've been told!
But yes, you are right, we should save as much fuel as possible and that's what I try to do on every flight...

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30120
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:53 am



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 29):
Yupp, that's true! But an MD11F with MLAW (222.9 tons) and only idle reverse usually ends up in hot brakes!

Are these Carbon Brakes.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:31 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 30):
Are these Carbon Brakes.

No clue! I can ask the mechanics later!

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
User avatar
UltimateDelta
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:56 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:10 pm

It is most certainly not banned. If it was, the lawmakers would be compromising safety. In some places, it is restricted, like at National Airport in D.C, (Planes only use it for a short time) but it is nowhere near banned. It's true, brakes could easily stop a plane, but in some cases it is necessary to use reverse thrust. Like I said, it is not banned.
Midwest Airlines- 1984-2010
 
ALexeu
Topic Author
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:02 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 26):
Ask him to prove it to you. Ask him what law makes it illegal. Ask for a citation and post it here. This should be interesting.

''the safety aspect''.

Damn, his book sais that it's illigal (unless in emergency cases). I really don't know how to prove it (cause he doesn't want to visit airport), and he even ''proved'' to his family and friends that I am wrong. I don't want to waste my time trying to prove something that I am right about.
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:04 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 33):
Damn, his book sais that it's illigal (unless in emergency cases).

NOW I got curious what kind of book this is!!! Because this is just WRONG!!!!

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:14 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 24):
As for asymmetric reverse, you know it is not like we press a 'reverse' button and go out for coffee.

With a little prior planning, you can make the coffee (and anything else not strapped down) come to you.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 33):
''the safety aspect''.
Damn, his book sais that it's illigal (unless in emergency cases).

I don't see how not using reverse would be safer. I suspect this might be an older publication which has since been superseded. These sorts of things do get updated from time to time.
Proud OOTSK member
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Reverse Thrust And Law

Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:19 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 35):
With a little prior planning, you can make the coffee (and anything else not strapped down) come to you.

 rotfl  What a mess, but good idea Big grin

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 35):
I don't see how not using reverse would be safer.

neither do I! Only on contaminated runway if the runway is very slippery, using R/T could give you a yaw moment which might blow you off the runway! Then you have to be careful with R/T! Or better would be: Head to your alternate where the runway conditions are better or wait until the snow or ice was removed from the runway  Wink

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Eiszeit and 21 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos