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klm672
Topic Author
Posts: 2563
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 6:09 am

Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 1:27 am

I just have a quick question regarding flying lessons. I have zero hours and my goal is to become an airline pilot. Luckily as a former Flight Attendant I do have connections and help explaining things is just a phone call away from numerous pilot friends. I had it all planned out, take out yet another loan and fly 3X a week, minimum. Just looked at my financial situation and my other loans and it doesn't look like its going to happen. I'd have to be paying out of pocket and could only afford to do it once a week or even once every other week. I've always been told to fly my butt off, and to do it as often as possible to save time and money but that isn't possible. Hit the books, study, watch dvds and then fly once a week or so do the trick? Would too much rust develop during the week? I do have heart and desire to become a pilot!
Thanks!
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:54 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 1:54 am

Flying once a week will definately work. Don't expect to finish in minimum times, you will be on a slower path, but you will finish. The slow path is not necesarilly a bad path, just a different one. Plan on taking 8-10 months to finish your private license IMO.
If you do only fly 1X a week make sure you get a good solid 1.5-2.0 hours in the plane every week. Budget for that time so you can not only stay proficient at old topics but learn new maneuvers and practice them too. That would get you 6-8 hours of flight time a month which really isn't all that bad if you are studying and learning inbetween.

Flying once a week is probably a minimum for a good student who studies inbetween lessons. If you fly once every 2 weeks it won't matter how much you study, as a new pilot you are going to be wasting money knocking the rust off your fresh skills.

I see you are in the Northeast US. This would probably be the time to start. As we head into generally good weather and summer time you can get some good flying and learning in. Winter storms will cause some cancellations so building a good base of experience and knowledge now can help when the times come and bad weather rolls in. You could probably get the basics down and solo before the end of summer easily.
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EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 3:48 am

1. Being an airline pilot does not require a degree in quantum physics; moreover it is simple muscle memory, which means flying often is better. That, in turn, will help you finish early and get hired by a regional sooner. As you know, the industry is seniority based, and the sooner you get hired the more security and pay you have.

2. Get a commercial multi/inst, and pay for an RJ transition course( or even better, a ATR or Q400 course, as that is where the industry is going) as opposed to paying for a CFI. I have said this for years, for the simple reason that whatever CRM experience one gets will never outweigh the fact that flying piston engine a/c in the flight training environment has very little to do with the airlines. There is no V1 cut, no flight director, no pressurization, no antiicing, no special departure procedures, no radar, no gas turbines...the list is endless. The military teaches in high performance, turbine a/c to minimize the time, and therefore cost, it takes to produce a qualified pilot. You should think in the same light.

3. Fly your butt off. Do not follow the crowd, and realize that group think in terms of getting hired, and rumors, are the worst 2 things one can be subjected to.

4. Good luck.
 
YWG
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RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 4:09 am



Quoting KLM672 (Thread starter):
Hit the books, study, watch dvds and then fly once a week or so do the trick? Would too much rust develop during the week?



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 1):
as a new pilot you are going to be wasting money knocking the rust off your fresh skills.

True story. I went at all my endorsements hardcore, 3-5hrs a day. You learn from your mistakes quickly, and progress fast!
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
klm672
Topic Author
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Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 6:09 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 4:12 am

Ok, with that in mind, is there any loan out there that lets me start paying as I finish the each rating? Is that too good to be true? I've looked into pilot financial and I think I'd have to pay $60.00 a month which is due able I guess but I'd be living from paycheck to paycheck.
 
YWG
Posts: 1054
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2001 11:29 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 4:15 am



Quoting KLM672 (Reply 4):
I guess but I'd be living from paycheck to paycheck.

It's not a glamorous life until you make it to the big show!
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 4:19 am



Quoting YWG (Reply 5):
It's not a glamorous life until you make it to the big show!

Where, exactly, is the "Big Show"? Major US pilots have given back tens of thousands of dollars to subsidize the airlines. Fly for the love of the job, not the $$.
 
Soku39
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Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 5:03 am



Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 2):
pay for an RJ transition course( or even better, a ATR or Q400 course, as that is where the industry is going) as opposed to paying for a CFI.

This is the worst thing I've ever read. Let the airline pay for your jet training, and your type rating when you get on the left. Time teaching is not time wasted, especially when a CFI only takes 15 more hours in the plane (part 141 at my specific school, part 61 you could do it in 5 if you wanted to) after you get your commercial. It can be done with 1500 bucks.
The Ohio Player
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
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RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 5:11 am



Quoting Soku39 (Reply 7):
This is the worst thing I've ever read. Let the airline pay for your jet training, and your type rating when you get on the left. Time teaching is not time wasted, especially when a CFI only takes 15 more hours in the plane (part 141 at my specific school, part 61 you could do it in 5 if you wanted to) after you get your commercial. It can be done with 1500 bucks.

I love advice from a 16-20 year old. You should follow the exact path you have described above, as you clearly know it all. All you have to do, friend, is have your resume selected from the thousands of others that think like you, and are 1500 hr CFIs. Best of luck with that-
 
YWG
Posts: 1054
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2001 11:29 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 5:25 am



Quoting Soku39 (Reply 7):
This is the worst thing I've ever read. Let the airline pay for your jet training, and your type rating when you get on the left.

Hell if you have the money, why not? One more thing to throw on the resume that will make you just a little bit better than the other 1499 applicants!

Quoting Soku39 (Reply 7):
especially when a CFI only takes 15 more hours in the plane (part 141 at my specific school, part 61 you could do it in 5 if you wanted to) after you get your commercial. It can be done with 1500 bucks.



Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 8):
I love advice from a 16-20 year old

Yup sounds like you're right on the ball. I'm going to have to call you out on the whole "Commercial, Instrument Rated". That comment on becoming an instructor after your CPL with $1500, has got to be the most absent minded comment I have ever read on this website. All I can say is WOW!
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
Illini_152
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 6:00 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 6:10 am

Horseshit.

I don't know where you guys are looking, but in the next 6-12 months, there's going to be a whole lot of RJ pilots out on the street here in the states with 600 hours, 400 of it in an RJ and no CFI. Now what are they going to do? Time spent teaching is NOT time wasted, it builds valuable experience on how to deal with others in the cockpit, CRM, customer service, act as PIC and teach, as one day (if) when you upgrade to captain, you will be called upon to teach again and groom those green FO's into CA's.

18 months ago I MIGHT have agreed with you; do whatever you can to get on with a regional ASAP, but right now? Get your ratings (that INCLUDES a CFI) gain experience, and get a job teaching others and learn all you can. Get a job flying freight as soon as you can. Gain REAL experience.

The regional airline industry in the US is going to go through some hard times in the next few years, don't shoot yourself in the foot by spending 4 grand on what you'll be taught in new hire training anyway. In the next few months, there's going to be a LOT of pilots on the street with <1000 hours, almost all of it as SIC in an RJ. Be sure your resume will distinguish you from all the others.
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
Soku39
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RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 6:44 am

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 8):
All you have to do, friend, is have your resume selected from the thousands of others that think like you

That wasn't such a tall order 12 months ago. 300 Hours could get you into a CRJ/ERJ/Beech/SAAB just about anywhere. I've got dozens upon dozens of friends who got the magical phone call without some dumb transition course (and I would have been with them if I didn't have a semester of college left, you sound like the kind of person who would drop out senior year of college to go fly a 1900 or something), and a whole bunch of friends who waited a couple months for their chance at the King Air and the 441. Go ahead and get typed in something that you'll never fly, then tell me it's not a waste of money. Until we get to another late 2007 hiring period I will continue flying my ass off (instructing, getting paid to fly, not paying to fly, let alone paying to fly a computer), oh and as for standing out. 100% african american minority in a 99.8% white male industry, go ahead, hate me.

[Edited 2008-05-12 23:45:18]

[Edited 2008-05-12 23:47:51]
The Ohio Player
 
YWG
Posts: 1054
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2001 11:29 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 3:42 pm



Quoting Soku39 (Reply 11):
you sound like the kind of person who would drop out senior year of college to go fly a 1900 or something),

Personal attacks on a forum? Grow up.

Quoting Soku39 (Reply 11):
oh and as for standing out. 100% african american minority in a 99.8% white male industry, go ahead, hate me.

I'm still going to have to say get as many ratings and endorsements as possible to make yourself more marketable. If you're going to play the "minority" card, well good luck. No one cares about race anymore (apart from the affirmative action people). Besides what are you going to do, write your ethnicity under the Accreditation's portion of your resume?

Quoting Soku39 (Reply 11):
I will continue flying my ass off (instructing, getting paid to fly, not paying to fly, let alone paying to fly a computer),

First get your CFI and tell me how much it costed you! Then have a good 4-6years stuck in the circuit smelling your knees in a 152.
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
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RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 3:57 pm



Quoting KLM672 (Thread starter):
I have zero hours and my goal is to become an airline pilot.

Have you considered the military route?

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
SlamClick
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RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 4:16 pm



Quoting KLM672 (Thread starter):
my goal is to become an airline pilot

I didn't see any mention of a college degree. As that is a sine qua non for airline pilots I assume you know that and already have it?

I just took a look at my first logbook and see that I went from zero-time to a private license in 266 days paying as I went. I did not take out any loans for it as I had a mobile home payment and a car payment at the time. The hourly rate I paid for flight instruction in a C-150 was equal to about six hours and twenty minutes worth of my wages at the time. If I didn't do much of anything else I could reasonably expect to fly an hour about every other day. That is how it went - I didn't go out with girls for about five months. I put off home and car repairs. I got pretty careful with my dining habits and I didn't drink at all during this time. I see on the pages of my logbook some pencilled notations as to balances owed and amounts paid at various times.

I don't remember the times as being hard, I don't remember the regimen as difficult. Instead I recall a great deal of satisfaction all along and that spring and summer was really a golden time in my life. I see that as of the private checkride I had logged 52.5 hours in 59 flights. That would appear to be an average of one lesson about every four and a half days. Well, we had a month of really bad weather early on, so I'm sure the actual dates are not quite that evenly spread. I'd guess I might find two flights in the same day. The important thing was I just kept at it, and I studied at night for the written and I hung around commercial pilots and it all led in the same direction.

That was for the private. Lucky me, I got a Ho Chi Minh scolarship for the commercial, multi and instrument and even helicopter so they cost me nothing but four and a half years of my life and a few funerals. I've wondered how pilots get started these days.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:54 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 4:22 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 14):
The hourly rate I paid for flight instruction in a C-150 was equal to about six hours and twenty minutes worth of my wages at the time.

Wow. $5/hr for a plane. You flew a looooooong time ago.  Smile  duck 

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 14):
car repairs.

Translation: horse and buggy repairs.  duck 
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 4:37 pm



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 15):
Wow. $5/hr for a plane. You flew a looooooong time ago.

As recently as 1998, I was paying $10/hr for a 152.

Wet.

Granted it was an employee benefit at the FBO, but my point is that there are ways to make it happen. You just have to get creative.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 14):
Well, we had a month of really bad weather early on

That's a not-insignificant factor. Andre, I notice you live in Vermont and Cleveland. If my experiences in Michigan are any indication, you can count on having to cancel a very large percentage of your flights due to wind, precipitation, low ceilings, or some combination of the above.

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 5:03 pm



Quoting Illini_152 (Reply 10):
Time spent teaching is NOT time wasted, it builds valuable experience on how to deal with others in the cockpit, CRM, customer service, act as PIC and teach, as one day (if) when you upgrade to captain, you will be called upon to teach again and groom those green FO's into CA's.

It is always the 18-22 yr olds that know it all. Think your gonna be great at CRM when you get in to a 737 cause you bumped around in closed VFR traffic in a bugsmasher? Think again. The worst disaster in airline history was a CRM issue with a very senior CA and relatively senior FO. By the time you are teaching other people as an airline CA, you will probably be 10 years older.

Quoting Soku39 (Reply 11):
100% african american minority in a 99.8% white male industry, go ahead, hate me.

That is absolutely pathetic that you don't have the personal pride to get hired on merit and instead choose to play the race card. Keep the stereotype alive!
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 5:10 pm



Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 17):
Think your gonna be great at CRM when you get in to a 737 cause you bumped around in closed VFR traffic in a bugsmasher?

I think someone with CFI experience, be it VFR or IFR, will probably have a better perspective on CRM, and will have a better understanding of the potential pitfalls of multi-crew communication than someone who spent the same amount of time flying checks by him or herself.

Illini's point is 100% valid - Time spent teaching is NOT time wasted.  checkmark 

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
I think someone with CFI experience, be it VFR or IFR, will probably have a better perspective on CRM, and will have a better understanding of the potential pitfalls of multi-crew communication than someone who spent the same amount of time flying checks by him or herself.

Illini's point is 100% valid - Time spent teaching is NOT time wasted.

Newbies think that a cursory CRM class somehow enables them to be assertive yet respectful, and that somehow that exceeds judgement. When the typical civilian CFI shows up at an airline, the learning curve is so steep that CRM is completely neglected for the first 500 hours or so. Every new guy gets the , "hey, you may be high, but you are fast." And oh, by the way, the next takeoff will probably be a flaps 1 bleeds off and the APU is MEL's so we'll be taking off unpressurized out of LAS.

CRM? No way. It is a one way discussion, in which most new guys won't even admit (or even be aware of) when they are overloaded. It is called a lack of experience, and whatever the CFI rating says about CRM is about as applicable as soft field landings to a 121 environment.

Teaching someone to fly maneuvers he or she will never do in an airliner is a total waste of time. If someone wants to be a career flight instructor, excellent, but let's not confuse the career paths because they are quite divergent.
 
bond007
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RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 8:45 pm

Well, to the question of flying only once a week... IMO that's fine, and probably the lowest frequency that you can do without losing time again on the next lesson for catching up. Whenever you get any extra cash, add another hour in the week, because there's no doubt that the more frequent the earlier flying, the more effective it is. I actually only started flying once every few weeks, and the first 30 mins of flying every time, was spent getting confident again and getting familiar with everything... so, really it was wasted time. It also took me many hours to pass my checkride (I won't admit how many), because of that.

Read the books, watch the DVDs, in between lessons, so you don't waste your time in the air being taught stuff that you could have learned free of charge sitting on your sofa.

Good luck,

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Illini_152
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 6:00 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 9:05 pm

EP,

You are definitely correct in pointing out that there can be very little CRM when all the experience resides in the left seat. But do you really think that 10 extra hours spent playing in the sim is going to help that?

I've seen both, and there's a world of difference between a 1500 hour pilot who's instructed, and maybe flown a little charter in the FBO's 421 or King Air, and a 200 hour wonder, who can barely keep up with the airplane, and has no SA, because they're still thinking about how to fly, because they do not have the muscle memory built from experience.

Sure, there are exceptions, gifted individuals that are just naturals. But until flight schools adopt a selection and weeding out process similar to the Air Force, there is no substitute for experience. I just fail to follow your logic, while on one hand lambasting new FO's for a lack of experience, then at the same time, telling new pilots not to gain that experience, but to plunk down 10 large on a CRJ systems course so they can get into that airliner quicker.

If I were king for a day, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to get to the right seat of an airliner in 6 months as many of these schools claim. A glider rating and tailwheel endorsement would be prerequisites to obtaining a commercial certificate, and an ATP would be required to act as SIC on a transport category aircraft. We'd reintroduce basic acro into the private pilot syllabus, and spin recoveries on a predetermined heading would be part of the checkride. Maybe then we'll start producing aviators again, instead of x-box players.
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 9:51 pm

Quoting Illini_152 (Reply 21):
But do you really think that 10 extra hours spent playing in the sim is going to help that?

Yes. I think doing a V1 cut, flying a flight director, listening to the TCAS, noticing what is where and on what panel, observing a start cycle...Yes. I think seeing this for 10 hours is absolutely worth it, b/c prior to that, you have not. Are you going to fly a piston single for an airline? No.

In the military, they say: "train like you fight, fight like you train".... Why is that?

Quoting Illini_152 (Reply 21):
1500 hour pilot who's instructed, and maybe flown a little charter in the FBO's 421 or King Air, and a 200 hour wonder, who can barely keep up with the airplane

Both the King Air pilot and the "200 hour wonder" will be lost for the 1st 300 hours in the airline business. The King air guy trying to meet multiple crossing restrictions coming down from FL370 with 80 kt tail winds while dodging thunderstorms in an area of terrain has no more advantage over the "wonder", but the "wonder" has wasted less time getting where he wants to be. Fly like you train, train like you fly, remember? Think the airlines want you to use the Fundamentals of Instruction and write a lesson plan for them? You guys are critical of the "wonders" because of group think, and oh btw, most Naval Aviators go to the boat with less than 300 hrs total time.

Quoting Illini_152 (Reply 21):
I just fail to follow your logic, while on one hand lambasting new FO's for a lack of experience,

I'm not lambasting any FOs... just telling you how it is. Face it, you have no idea what the airlines are like, never been a Part 121 pic, and yet you have the audacity to have no regard for my viewpoint?

Quoting Illini_152 (Reply 21):
but to plunk down 10 large on a CRJ systems course so they can get into that airliner quicker.

While you were still in junior high, a lot of guys did just that realizing it was what they had to do to get ahead. Ethical issues, yes there are many, but the vast majority of those guys are at the majors, and a good portion are captains. Just food for thought...

[Edited 2008-05-13 15:25:48]
 
Illini_152
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 6:00 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 10:46 pm

No, I've never been an airline pilot; does international 135 PIC count for anything?

I went from hauling freight in twin Cessnas to the right seat of a Lear 35 in the northeast. Ancient RNAV, no VNAV, basic autopilot, no FD on the FO's side, no moving maps, very high-workload airplane. Before that I towed gliders, flight instructed, towed banners, hauled skydivers, and a host of other time building jobs. While my SA improved dramatically after the first few weeks, another 10 sim sessions wouldn't have had any effect on the initial comfort level in the real-world operations.

I never said I had no regard for your viewpoint; I just disagreed. But I guess since I'm not an airline pilot, I can't have an opinion on the best way to get started in this industry. Putting all your eggs in the RJ basket, with no other way to make a living is not a place I'd want to be in this economy. In 6 months when Expressjet, PSA, Piedmont and a host of other regionals start furloughing the bottom quarter of their seniority list, I would not want to be a broke 900 hour RJ FO with no CFI, no dual given and $80,000 in student loan debt.

I've never thought of my time building years as a waste, I think back to my experience and maturity level at 300 hours, and there was no way I'd want to put that pilot in a jet. I learned about weather, icing, performance and aircraft handling all in marginally performing aircraft so that it was second nature. And I had a lot of fun in the process.

FWIW- those nuggets making their first traps at 300 hours went through a much tighter screening process than a credit check for a student loan. If airlines wanted to do REAL ab-intio training in the states, do military style screening for the applicants, and wash out pilots that take more than two lessons to complete objectives, fine. THEN we can compare a 300 hour military pilot with a 300 hour civvy. Until then, they have not experienced the same 300 hours.
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Tue May 13, 2008 11:43 pm



Quoting Illini_152 (Reply 23):
In 6 months when Expressjet, PSA, Piedmont and a host of other regionals start furloughing the bottom quarter of their seniority list, I would not want to be a broke 900 hour RJ FO with no CFI, no dual given and $80,000 in student loan debt.

- I appreciate that, but furloughs are a threat for airline pilots even in the best of times. When you are on top of the hill, all you can do is go down.

- $80k in debt may be there no matter if you are towing banners or flying RJs, assuming a 4 year degree.

- airline experience is marketable to other airlines...witness the very high percentage of ex Independence Air pilots that have been rehired (and may get furloughed again if they are at XJT, for ex)

- if one is furloughed and represented by a union, typically that is a force multiplier in that the union will protect those jobs while finding other potential sources of work



Quoting Illini_152 (Reply 23):
I've never thought of my time building years as a waste, I think back to my experience and maturity level at 300 hours, and there was no way I'd want to put that pilot in a jet. I learned about weather, icing, performance and aircraft handling all in marginally performing aircraft so that it was second nature. And I had a lot of fun in the process.

Good for you, I respect that.

Quoting Illini_152 (Reply 23):
FWIW- those nuggets making their first traps at 300 hours went through a much tighter screening process than a credit check for a student loan.

Well, one can only speak for himself. There has never been a "tighter screening process" than I have imposed on myself, and that goes for any endeavor.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3183
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Wed May 14, 2008 7:22 am

I'm going to jump into the buy a rating vs. build time as CFI argument. I'm not a pilot, but I have been a aircraft mechanic for 18 years. In those years I have learned more about my craft from teaching another mechanic than fumbling around by myself. The moto is; see one, do one, teach one. When you teach a proceedure, questions get asked and you need to come up with answers. It makes you think about why you are doing what you have been taught.

I went to college with a bunch of pilots. BTW SlamClick is very correct this is very importaint if you ever desire to fly for an airline of size. Get a BS in something. Most went the CFI route for at least a few months. Some got their 727FE written done through a course at school. The pay for a rating crap was just getting started back then. I only remember one of my friends doing it. He got typed on some Turboprop with the promise of a couple of interviews with airlines. Those interviews didn't get him a job. He did get a turboprop flying job, but not any quicker than the CFI crowd. The real answer is networking to get those early career jobs. My close friends got most of their early flying jobs through contacts.
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Wed May 14, 2008 3:24 pm



Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 24):
There has never been a "tighter screening process" than I have imposed on myself, and that goes for any endeavor.

My, you must be very, very good.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Soku39
Posts: 1731
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Wed May 14, 2008 8:31 pm



Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 17):
That is absolutely pathetic that you don't have the personal pride to get hired on merit and instead choose to play the race card. Keep the stereotype alive!

Hey if I've got to stand out, I'll use what I'm born with, this is a competitive industry and you know it. If they're gonna throw scholarship money and jobs my way, I'm gonna take them. As for keeping the stereotype alive, the only stereotype I'm keeping alive is my school continually producing excellent pilots, no one from my school washes out. I'd love for you to show me the young African American pilot stereotype, because I'm the only one I know.

That being said I will take my CFI checkride next week, I will do some time in the '72s, I will get my CFII next month, and I will teach in the instrument environment. While I do this I will gain experience in dealing with many different types of individuals, I will deal with ATC, and I will teach the very things I must know for my first interview. This I find much more valuable than learning a type specific flow, not using it, and forgetting it a month later.

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 22):
I think seeing this for 10 hours is absolutely worth it, b/c prior to that, you have not

So I guess my question is why would you pay for it in whatever, instead of just waiting to get hired, and the airline paying for it in what you will specifically be flying.

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 22):
The King air guy trying to meet multiple crossing restrictions coming down from FL370 with 80 kt tail winds while dodging thunderstorms in an area of terrain has no more advantage over the "wonder"

Well he's certainly learned how to make decisions, and conduct a safe flight in marginal conditions, I don't understand how you could not give him that.
The Ohio Player
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Thu May 15, 2008 2:23 am



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 26):
Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 24):
There has never been a "tighter screening process" than I have imposed on myself, and that goes for any endeavor.

My, you must be very, very good.

Yes, it is a sad commentary on today's society to think that any effort that exceeds the norm is not worth the effort...
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Thu May 15, 2008 2:28 am



Quoting Soku39 (Reply 27):
Hey if I've got to stand out, I'll use what I'm born with, this is a competitive industry and you know it.

You aren't worthy of a response for playing the race card. That is pathetic.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Thu May 15, 2008 3:05 am



Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 29):
You aren't worthy of a response for playing the race card. That is pathetic.

Is a woman applying for a Women in Aviation scholarship pathetic for playing the "Sex Card"?

What about applying for and taking scholarship money because you happened to be born in a certain place? Would that be playing the "Locality Card"?

There is currently a scholarship limited to applicants who are children of active, retired, or deceased members of the Air Force Aid Society. Would a student accepting this scholarship be pathetic for playing the "Mom or Dad is an Active, Retired, or Deceased Member of the Air Force Aid Society Card"?

Now, don't get me wrong....there have been times where I have been extremely, extremely frustrated to go through (ie: pay for) flight training as a white male. Example:

I clearly remember standing at the dispatch desk one day next to an individual who belonged to a minority. He was on a full-ride scholarship largely because of his race. We had both just finished flying and were waiting for our receipts. He was handed his receipt. It showed a negative balance (credit) of around $40,000, which had come from the scholarship and would never have to be paid back.

Then I was handed my receipt. It showed a (remaining) credit of around $3000. Just a few months earlier, it had read $10,000, all of which I knew I'd soon be paying back. Worst of all, I knew that the next $10,000 would have to come from yet another loan. A loan that, as far as I knew, I may or may not someday be able to repay.

He walked off to his reliable, late-model car, and because he didn't have (or need) a job, he drove off to spend the weekend barbecuing outside and waterskiing with friends. I walked over to my old beater with 250,000 miles on it and drove off to work all weekend at my full-time job. This job, by the way, was in addition to a full load of classes and a full flight schedule.

The thing is, despite feeling very frustrated, and despite being absolutely convinced (to this day) that such situations are completely unfair, I never once faulted him for taking advantage of the resources at his disposal, because I would have absolutely jumped at the chance to do the same.

Soku39 is not pathetic. Nor are his actions related to taking advantage of opportunities.

What is pathetic, EssentialPowr, is the consistently sour attitude you have been spreading throughout these forums. Be happy for Soku39 for embarking upon the career of his dreams and keep your negativity to yourself. I think everyone will find the resulting experience vastly more enjoyable.

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Thu May 15, 2008 3:00 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 30):
Is a woman applying for a Women in Aviation scholarship pathetic for playing the "Sex Card"?

Absolutely, in all cases. Unbiased scholarships are great, those that are based on some sort of legacy are BS.

This country is becoming crippled by lowered standards and a chronic lack of accountability.

SATs and ACTs have been lowered 4 times in the past 2 decades to allow everyone who wants a college degree to get one, as opposed to the theory that those who can, do, and those who can't must do something else, and there is no shame in that.

We have a plethora of sub 35 year olds in this country who have "degrees" but lack the ability for critical thought. They have degrees, and b/c of that feel the world owes them a living.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 30):
The thing is, despite feeling very frustrated, and despite being absolutely convinced (to this day) that such situations are completely unfair, I never once faulted him for taking advantage of the resources at his disposal, because I would have absolutely jumped at the chance to do the same.

That kind of attitude, that something is OK if you can get away with it, is exactly my point. That is TOTAL CRAP, and it will continue as long as people allow it. I suspect you don't have kids, but when minorities get freebies just for their color, and others have to pay through the nose to the point that finances, not ability, limit their opportunities, maybe then you will get the idea.

Some punk that claims, "hey, I'm black, I'll get a free ride (or of course I'll sue)" makes me want to vomit, and frankly adds to that stereotype.

I have worked and served with all colors and races, and that has been a priviledge, but the fact that some 19 year old thinks he has truly endured racial hardship in this country and wants a bennie for it... and the fact that others accept it... will cause the downfall of our democracy. When the majority votes in a government that gives them the most for the least, that is the beginning of the end.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Thu May 15, 2008 3:03 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 30):
What is pathetic, EssentialPowr, is the consistently sour attitude you have been spreading throughout these forums.

That is your opinion, not my feeling. Soku39 is pathetic, and that is my opinion, like it or not.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Thu May 15, 2008 3:10 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 30):
He was handed his receipt. It showed a negative balance (credit) of around $40,000, which had come from the scholarship and would never have to be paid back.

One other thing. Whether that money comes from a federal or private source, and I can assure you in a public school some does, the fact that it won't be paid back is EXPLICITLY the problem. That decreases opportunity form those who may be truly need based, such as YOUR case. But you seem to accept this.

That friend, is the exact problem.
 
EssentialPowr
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Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Thu May 15, 2008 3:45 pm



Quoting Soku39 (Reply 27):
I'd love for you to show me the young African American pilot stereotype, because I'm the only one I know.

Well put. One is too many, but there are unfortunately many more...
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Fri May 16, 2008 5:04 pm

Quoting YWG" class=quote target=_blank>YWG (Reply 5):
Quoting KLM672 (Reply 4):
I guess but I'd be living from paycheck to paycheck.

It's not a glamorous life until you make it to the big show!

I guess I'm in the big show, but it's nothing like glamorous. If you think otherwise, get out now.

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 6):
Quoting YWG (Reply 5):
It's not a glamorous life until you make it to the big show!

Where, exactly, is the "Big Show"? Major US pilots have given back tens of thousands of dollars to subsidize the airlines. Fly for the love of the job, not the $$.

That is the best advice I have seen in this thread. Fly because you want to fly, not because of any potential compensation. Myself and thousands like me have given up nearly 50% of our salary and our pension, meaning that we have to save enough on the remaining 50% to fund our retirement. That's one big reason I have finished a second graduate degree, so I can ultimately leave the industry. The "Big Show" is a mirage, with very (VERY) few exceptions.

Quoting Soku39 (Reply 11):
oh and as for standing out. 100% african american minority in a 99.8% white male industry, go ahead, hate me.

Well I wasn't predisposed to hating you, but tell me how this is relevant to a discussion of flying skills.

To answer the original question, yes, flying once a week can work; that's the way I started. It isn't for everyone, but I would definitely not go deeply into debt to have any part of this industry.

[Edited 2008-05-16 10:07:18]
 
AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Sat May 17, 2008 5:50 pm

Save your money and spend you efforts on a real job and not on a joke of an industry.

[Edited 2008-05-17 10:53:59]
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2268
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RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Sat May 17, 2008 6:01 pm



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 36):
Save your money and spend you efforts on a real job and not on a joke of an industry.

I think AirWillie6475 has the right idea; he is certainly in a position to discuss the world you are trying to enter, and can provide a better perspective for you than people in the more senior end of the flying spectrum.
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Sat May 17, 2008 6:33 pm



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 37):
I think AirWillie6475 has the right idea; he is certainly in a position to discuss the world you are trying to enter, and can provide a better perspective for you than people in the more senior end of the flying spectrum.

Well sir considering the state of the airlines and not knowing if I'm going to have a job next week, the negatives are far outweighing the positives. Thanks for your endorsement.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Sat May 17, 2008 6:41 pm



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 38):
Well sir considering the state of the airlines and not knowing if I'm going to have a job next week, the negatives are far outweighing the positives. Thanks for your endorsement.

I wish you all the best; I spent 4 years on furlough, and have worked for another carrier that went out of business. I wish I had had the maturity to understand the industry as well as you do when I was your age as I would have doubtlessly have been in another career now. I think it's important to encourage people to fly ONLY because they love it, but I think it's critical that people considering the profession hear from the younger pilots on the line what the job is really like. I try to be balanced, but agree with you that it is difficult to argue in favor of aviation as a career today.

I wish you wisdom and luck in your career, whether you choose to remain in the aviation world or move to another field.
 
AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Sat May 17, 2008 7:04 pm

Yes, you spend 3 months of absolute hell training, away from family and friends, you spend months on reserve in crew lounges trapped like you're in prison waiting for that call 12 hours at a time in a different timezone than your home so you can have a few hours of "high" only to come back again on the ground and be cursed by pax saying how much our airline sucks and that we're never ontime. And I get to repeat for 20 days out the month. All this while making the least amount of money contractually obligated only to have a letter in your mail box of voluntary furlough. If only I had enough flight time for corporate or cargo, I would leave the airlines tomorrow if I could.
 
SLUAviator
Posts: 292
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Wed May 28, 2008 9:30 pm

THREE big reasons to get a CFI: 1. It gives you something to fall back on if/when the airlines get all kinds of more screwed up! Lots of people have posted that people are gonna end up on the street. That MAY be true (none of the regionals are furloughing yet--but that can change today), and those guys have a lot more time and they are going after the jobs still out there that you are going after. Don't listen to ATP, Jet University or those companies who are saying they can place you in a job at this point with 250 hours. It will not happen.

Two.... TEACHING MAKES YOU A BETTER PILOT! I did it, and teaching brought my book knowledge up 200% from the day I got my CFI. Just answering your students questions makes you learn. I was asked a couple times a week questions I had no idea what the answer was. I told them they stumped me and we looked it up together. I bet I have not forgotten those answers yet. Finally, you're gonna be sharp on simple book knowledge and part 91 regs from teaching privates, especially instruments. Believe me when I say it makes airline interviews easier. I've done 3 and I have been offered 3 jobs. You can read the gouges and then you can scan over a lot of stuff because you are sharp on it. That allows you to spend your time focused on 121 regs, learning Jeps (if you don't know them already) and what you see the airline is particular about from the gouges/talking to guys and sim prep. The biggest thing is to not burn yourself out on the prep and let that make you MORE nervous in the interview. If your stuff is down cold to begin with, it makes the whole process less stressful!

Three... the days where guys can get hired with 25 hours of multi is just about gone. With gas going up expect multi-time to increase exponentially. Get your MEI. Let other people pay for your multi. I think we are gonna be back in the 100-500 hour multi time if not more in a matter of months. I hear at work all the time mins and competitive mins are going up. Don't try to buy the twin time you will end up broke and with maxed credit cards.
What do I know? I just fly 'em.......
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Flying Once A Week Is It Going To Work?

Fri May 30, 2008 1:08 pm



Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 41):
THREE big reasons to get a CFI: 1. It gives you something to fall back on if/when the airlines get all kinds of more screwed up!

So if one gets furloughed from the right seat of an airliner making $82/hr, there are now 1000 people wanting a job that pays, what, $10/hr?

Just saw a bumper sticker:

B.S. in physics: Why does it work?
B.S. in engineering: How does it work?
B.S. in economics: How much does it cost?
B.A: Want fries with that?

Yes, you can have a joke of a degree, but when the furloughs come, that limits opportunities. Something to consider...

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