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wilco737
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Wed May 21, 2008 5:09 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 49):
I'd have to say that simulators work better for jets than for turboprops and better for glass cockpits than for steam gauges. Most modern jets have very quiet cockpits and the simulated noises are just background, not all that important. Also, the better the visual, the better the simulation. The best of them are a little cartoonish as they try to emulate daytime conditions, but for night and low-visibility, which are the more critical environments, they do a pretty good job.

Yeah, I didn't say it is bad or not realistic! I was once in the MD11 Sim and then I was flying it for real doing 3 traffic patterns and as you said: no surprises! The visual was just better Big grin Only the landings were a little different than in the Sim. But no big surprises here as well...

WILCO737 (MD11F)
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BAE146QT
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Wed May 21, 2008 5:50 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 49):
Kind of like when an actor turns and talks to the camera in a movie.

Referred to, of course, as "breaking the 4th wall", since it originated in the theatre where the notional fourth wall of the set/stage is the one that the audience are 'looking through'. It's usually used for comedic effect these days but was pioneered centuries ago.

It's a nice comparison here since in both cases it gives you a slap-in-the-face awareness that what you are seeing/doing is not real.

While that might have a benefit on the stage/screen, I can see that there would be more value in allowing a pilot to 'fly' the simulator to whatever conclusion the exercise comes to, if only to create the startling image of upside-down scenery and the wings falling off. Surely the time for slapping the errant pilot upside the head and asking "Now, what have you learned?" is in the debriefing? Or is simulator time that rare and expensive? *


* That's not rhetorical but I suspect that the answer is 'yes'.
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KELPkid
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Wed May 21, 2008 6:10 pm



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 47):
I've heard the same. Sometimes it works out in the crew's favor. An ATR captain told me that the sims at flight Safety (he's with ASA) are a little harder to fly than the real thing for whatever reason.

I know from experience that one thing the Frasca 142 cannot duplicate faithfully or accurately from a real Cessna 172 is the yaw effects that the prop exacts upon the plane, be it p-factor or even right turning tendencies with the nose pointed down and power applied...and you gotta be on top of the rudder to successfully fly the 172 in the clag  Smile , especially when tracking the localizer.

How are the bigger sims at this on turboprops?
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SlamClick
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Wed May 21, 2008 6:18 pm



Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 51):
Or is simulator time that rare and expensive? *

Expensive? Yes. A simulator may cost roughly the same as the airplane it represents. It is approximately the same level of complexity. It has the virtue of being repeatedly crashable. Crashes can damage simulators though, and many a time instructors have frantically jabbed the button to suppress them.

Rare? Because of their cost airlines typically buy about one less than they actually need. They are often scheduled continuously, almost around the clock. Even the back side of the clock is sold to customers with less ferocious pilot unions. (I've long wondered if FedEx pilots complain when they have to go to the sim during daylight. "How can they expect a pilot to be sharp at that hour of the day?")

We have a couple of different concepts in use in sim training. One, the LOFT is supposed to be 'line oriented' like the acronym implies, with pilots flying a long drawn-out sequence the outcome of which depends on the choices made. The other is a 'first look' situation where I might put you in the box with the motors running at the end of the runway, ready for takeoff. After that brief scenario is complete I might put you in flight ready to start an approach or something. Little realism here, it is not even something we strive for. It is just a way to acquaint you with a number of procedures, maneuvers, and situations one after another, in a short period of time.

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 51):
"breaking the 4th wall"

I'd not heard that expression. Thanks, it is nicely descriptive. It works in books too - yanking the reader out of the story by some intrusion of out-of-place words. I can hardly stand to watch movies anymore because script writers insist on putting 2008 slang in the mouths of ancient Romans or 1940s soldiers.

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 51):
in the debriefing

Many items are for the debriefing: correcting exact wording of a callout, for example. Some are cause to freeze the flight, interrupt, point out just where they have gone astray, correct the situation, then proceed. About the only time we want to do this is when the training value will be lost if we proceed.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Wed May 21, 2008 6:37 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 49):
think a more important factor in realism is "unreal" practices, pretending to get the ATIS, goofing off with ATC communications, stopping flying the airplane to discuss training matters with the instructor and things like that. When you do this it jerks you out of the "airplane" and into the simulator.

SlamClick, Sorry if I'm a bit confused; are you saying these "unreal" practices are good or bad. I feel like you swapped your point midway or I just missed it. We have found that since we now do a LOFT trip as part of out annual "pro chk" that having to take time to "really" send an ACARS to ops and really get ATIS and all those other mundane subtle little chores you can magnify the little miscommunications and see where S.A. comes and goes when trouble shooting a problem. Unlike the "old days" when we just identified the problem ran the chklist and landed the "real world" real time scenerio is best.
 
BAE146QT
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Wed May 21, 2008 6:42 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 53):
Expensive? Yes. A simulator may cost roughly the same as the airplane it represents.

I figured this might be the case when I investigated getting an hour in a 737 simulator of the sort that the public can book time on. * It worked out that I could get about five hours in a 152 for the same price.  Yeah sure

The idea of a company buying less training materials than it really needs and then working those materials to the maximum is also something I am familiar with, (in a different industry). Why do we insist on relying on people that we haven't invested in? Is it because we haven't had a disaster because of it yet?

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 53):
I'd not heard that expression. Thanks, it is nicely descriptive.

Welcome. Once upon a time, the effect was ground-breaking. Then it became cliched. Then it was used ironically. And now, it has become the tool of the lazy and ignorant screenwriter - the type that you sort-of allude to.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 53):
The other is a 'first look' situation where I might put you in the box with the motors running at the end of the runway, ready for takeoff. After that brief scenario is complete I might put you in flight ready to start an approach or something. Little realism here, it is not even something we strive for.

I am deathly afraid of mentioning MSFS here since it's not relevant to the forum, but... MSFS does this, particularly in early 'training'. It's not really helpful unless you want to repeatedly practice a particular skill or flight regime. You have no idea how you got 'there' in the first place.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 53):
Some are cause to freeze the flight, interrupt, point out just where they have gone astray, correct the situation, then proceed.

I gather that these are not egregious errors, but minor procedural ones? Do you let your candidates get it horribly wrong when necessary?

* Partly for fun, partly for comparison with real life and PC flight sims, and partly because there is a non-zero probability that it would be the coolest thing ever for a low-time bod like me. And I've been around Silverstone several times in a Ferrari F-50. That was properly cool.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Wed May 21, 2008 6:59 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 53):
I can hardly stand to watch movies anymore because script writers insist on putting 2008 slang in the mouths of ancient Romans or 1940s soldiers.

I must agree completely here!!
 
BAE146QT
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Wed May 21, 2008 7:14 pm

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 55):
Why do we insist on relying on people that we haven't invested in? Is it because we haven't had a disaster because of it yet?

Before anyone bothers answering that, I have just realised how it sounds. The statement - particularly the "we" bit - is more to do with my industry, not aviation. Apologies for any confusion.

I have heard testimony here from people who have transitioned from sim to live passengers in one go and assuming that they and the regulatory bodies are happy with it, then I am not one to argue. Just as long as all concerned feel that the training they have had is enough.

[Edited 2008-05-21 12:15:19]

[Edited 2008-05-21 12:16:07]
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Jetlagged
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Wed May 21, 2008 9:14 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 46):
Please don't take this as flame, but full motion flight sims don't fly like the real airplane in most cases. They give you an idea of how it handles and are useful in teaching the cockpit procedures, switch placement, flows, etc. None of the sims I've been in represented the airplane very well overall.

You must have been in some bad ones then.  

I certainly don't take that as a flame. Most pilots I know say the real aircraft is easier to fly than the sim. I just wanted to add my perspective as a non-pilot (I've flown GA singles on occasion) who regularly gets to fly a wide variety of full flight sims (I think I have the best aviation job going).

Actually a Level C or D sim represents aircraft performance and response very accurately, they wouldn't qualify otherwise. What they can't do, as WILCO737 pointed out, is fully represent motion cues. You get onset cues, and an overall impression the thing is moving. Nothing must be distracting, but a lot is missing. Visual scenes are now becoming very life-like, and most training sessions take place in near zero visibility anyway.

As SlamClick said, turboprops and smaller aircraft generally are harder to get right, for three reaons. First they are smaller and more responsive, so motion limitations are more obvious. Secondly prop slipstream effects are very hard to model with the computer power available and thirdly sim data is often less good (Airbus and Boeing provide good packages because they have years of experience at it).

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 52):
I know from experience that one thing the Frasca 142 cannot duplicate faithfully or accurately from a real Cessna 172 is the yaw effects that the prop exacts upon the plane, be it p-factor or even right turning tendencies with the nose pointed down and power applied...and you gotta be on top of the rudder to successfully fly the 172 in the clag , especially when tracking the localizer.

How are the bigger sims at this on turboprops?

The Frasca 142 is an FTD. Such sims aren't meant for training in aircraft handling so don't expect too much from them. They do a good job, but are much more limited than an FFS.

[Edited 2008-05-21 14:19:46]
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Wed May 21, 2008 11:55 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 53):
Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 51):
"breaking the 4th wall"

I'd not heard that expression. Thanks, it is nicely descriptive. It works in books too - yanking the reader out of the story by some intrusion of out-of-place words. I can hardly stand to watch movies anymore because script writers insist on putting 2008 slang in the mouths of ancient Romans or 1940s soldiers.

Purist.  Wink If you would rather they speak Latin, fine. I think the challenge is that they need to be relevant to modern audiences. IMHO if a Roman foot soldier speaks with a modern plebeian accent including swearing and bad grammar, while a Tribune speaks with a modern aristocratic accent, you've nailed the spirit if not the historical exactness.


Then again. breaking the 4th wall does not refer to putting anachronistic jargon in there. It refers to characters in a story addressing the reader/viewer directly. First person narratives are excepted of course.

An example would be the scene in "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" when James Bond looks directly at the camera, and thus at the viewer.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SlamClick
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Thu May 22, 2008 3:36 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 59):
An example would be the scene in "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" when James Bond looks directly at the camera, and thus at the viewer.

In comedy - not a problem. And let's face it, all James Bond movies are comedy; fast, furious and ridiculous.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 59):
If you would rather they speak Latin, fine.

I'm not talking about them speaking modern English. I would like to enjoy the dialogue. I am talking about words or phrases that can be tied to a single recent decade. I'm talking about a pirate saying 'gnarly' or 'bitchin' It is not so bad (provided dated slang is avoided) with movies set in ancient times. We never heard them talk. But a movie set in WW II - dammit I know how those guys talked, my brother in law talked that way 'til the day he died.

There was a British comedy about the French résistance where one of the actors spoke incredibly mangled English to portray his atrocious French. "...are you staying or are you just pissing through?" It was brilliant use of dialogue as costume or set decoration.

Are we far enough off-topic yet?
Can anyone see it back there?
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miamiair
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Thu May 22, 2008 3:46 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 60):
Can anyone see it back there?

Not with my spyglass, sah!
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BAE146QT
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Thu May 22, 2008 5:03 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 60):
There was a British comedy about the French résistance where one of the actors spoke incredibly mangled English to portray his atrocious French. "...are you staying or are you just pissing through?" It was brilliant use of dialogue as costume or set decoration.

It was called 'Allo 'Allo, and it is still run as repeats over here on BBC2. It dates quite well and the cast even had a televised reunion recently (except for those who have since passed on), and discussed this very aspect of the programme. You might get to see it on PBS.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 60):
Are we far enough off-topic yet? Can anyone see it back there?

Okay - how about this. Has anyone here flown a civilian conversion of a military aircraft?

I ask because the C-87 apparently compared very poorly in performance and maintenance to the B-24 it was derived from. Now, anyone who flew those two on the line is probably in their 90s and possibly not posting on the internet, but how about later ones? What about the Boeing 377 and C-97 vs the B-29/B-50? Were they difficult to fly because of - or in spite of - their DNA?
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Mastropiero
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Thu May 22, 2008 9:03 pm

Listen very carefully, I shall say zis only once......


Sorry, could not resist  Big grin

What a great, great show!!!!
 
twal1011727
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Thu May 22, 2008 9:57 pm



Quoting Web (Reply 4):
I have heard that the 727 is very difficult to grease on landings. Something to do with the placement of the main gear, I think.

Yes sirree...The main gear is behind the rotation when flaring.
You think your coming down too fast and try to raise the nose to stop it, this action rotates the mains downward and can actually announce your arrival rather abruptly. It lead to the bounce or skip - the trick was to lower the nose - slightly - thus "raising" the gear up for a smoother touchdown.....timing is everything.

Quoting 411A (Reply 20):
Early B707 aircraft, those without fan engines could be a slight problem for those pilots not accustomed to flying a large heavy airplane, without powered control surfaces.

My dad flew the 707-300 fan A/C for TWA.
He told me once that you should keep power up thru the flare
otherwise you would fly right thru the flare and slam it on the runway.

KD
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Thu May 22, 2008 10:05 pm



Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 64):
the trick was to lower the nose - slightly - thus "raising" the gear up for a smoother touchdown.....timing is everything.

I heard that going around years ago from a F/O I was flying with. I told him to flare that way on every landing for the month and I would flare just as I would every other jet I've flown and at the end of the month I had better ldgs by about 2:1. We use to also put a golf tee on the center console and see if one could land the 727 without knocking it over. It can be done.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Fri May 23, 2008 1:35 am



Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 64):
You think your coming down too fast and try to raise the nose to stop it, this action rotates the mains downward and can actually announce your arrival rather abruptly. It lead to the bounce or skip - the trick was to lower the nose - slightly - thus "raising" the gear up for a smoother touchdown.....timing is everything.

That would apply to every tricycle undercarriage airplane, surely. The 727 is not alone in having main gear wheels behind the CG. Simple maths shows that the additional rate of descent at the wheels due to rotating the aircraft while flaring is a small fraction of the overall rate of decent of the aircraft. On the other hand, pushing the nose down just before touchdown is likely to be a problem if mistimed.

If the wheels are for the sake of argument 10 feet aft of the CG and nose up pitch rate is 3 deg/s (high for a flare), the additional downward wheel velocity is:

3 / 57.3 * 10 = 0.5235 ft/sec, or 31 ft/min

At more typical pitch rates the velocity is of course much less.

If you pitch down at 1 deg/s (too much would risk a nosewheel first arrival) that would only reduce touchdown impact by about 10 ft/min.

The 727 got a reputation of being difficult to land before people fully understood the technique. My guess would be theories like this were generated at the time.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: What Is The Most Difficult Airliner To Fly?

Fri May 23, 2008 2:12 am



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 66):
That would apply to every tricycle undercarriage airplane, surely. The 727 is not alone in having main gear wheels behind the CG. Simple maths shows that the additional rate of descent at the wheels due to rotating the aircraft while flaring is a small fraction of the overall rate of decent of the aircraft. On the other hand, pushing the nose down just before touchdown is likely to be a problem if mistimed.

That's exactly what I was referring to, thanks for reaffirming it. The bottom line is; you flare late you smack the ground; you flare early you float and drop without some power to stop the sink.

In the 727 I would raise the nose about 2 deg or so and if you flared at the right height you could just milk the elevator without increaseing the pitch and you could have a grease job. If you were off by 3 feet you'd know it.

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