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pianos101
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New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Thu May 22, 2008 10:38 pm

Does anyone know more of this, and how it'll impact everyday procedures? Will it be as grim as they're making it out to be on the Consumerist? I've never heard of this new rule....

http://consumerist.com/tag/travel/?i...29th-be-a-big-cluster-for-airlines
 
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LAXintl
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Thu May 22, 2008 10:46 pm

US simply is adopting the international standard format. Loooong overdue move imo.

Should not be a big deal especially to the larger carriers, or those that already operate outside the US as they currently file the international format as is.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Thu May 22, 2008 11:43 pm

As LAXintl says this shouldn't be a big deal given that big airlines need to use it internationally today.



This is like going from standard to metric for the aviation world.

Talk about parochialism! "Standard"?!?
 
pianos101
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Thu May 22, 2008 11:59 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
Talk about parochialism! "Standard"?!?

Ha yeah... That's what I thought. I mean if most airlines fly internationally and do this anyway (ESP the legacies, who are the biggest anyway) why would this cause SUCH a disruption........
 
Goldenshield
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Fri May 23, 2008 2:41 pm

Even though the switchover date is June 29th, the FAA isn't forcing people to file the old way until then. In fact, they are currently allowing airlines (and everyone else) to file ICAO plans if they so desire to. Some airlines are using this period to slowly transition to the new format. Some have already been doing so with airports under foreign control (Bellingham, WA for example.)

So, really, this guy is a making a mountain out of an anthill.
 
lowrider
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Fri May 23, 2008 4:05 pm

The ones I see being most negatively impacted by this are small or individual part 91 or 135 ops for whom the ICAO format will be more cumbersome. I do agree that the author is overstating the case. Does anyone know what prompted the change?
 
BAE146QT
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Fri May 23, 2008 4:24 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
Talk about parochialism! "Standard"?!?

If you were a random American and in the right mindset, that phraseology is supposed to make you mentally link US measurement, (which you are comfortable with), and the current-style flight plans. See? Everything's in your comfort zone there. No threat.

Then they force you into the mental association between the Metric system - which you probably don't know very well and might make you a little uncomfortable - and the ICAO flight plans. Not good. Feel scared. NOT WANT!

Journalists have a nasty habit of using phraseology that gets you riled about a story. Really good ones can even do it without you realising that they are the originator of the wording. Certain members of society react to this in a totally subconscious, almost Pavlovian manner.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Fri May 23, 2008 4:27 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 5):
Does anyone know what prompted the change?

The feds are just conforming to the rest of the world, is all. They've already begun switching over NOTAMs to ICAO (But are nowhere near complete,) and the NWS is switching to ICAO 30 hour TAFs.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Fri May 23, 2008 11:27 pm



Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 6):
Journalists have a nasty habit of using phraseology that gets you riled about a story.

Hehe. My dad was a journalist for forty years. I know the exact thing you mean. Good post.
 
jgarrido
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sat May 24, 2008 1:30 pm

Many US carriers already have to file flight plans in the ICAO format, and FAA computers already have to read them. Over here all we get are ICAO flight plans. Will there growing pains, yes, but the line "We are talking about a brand-new way for ALL airlines to file domestic flight plans, and they are all doing it for the first time on June 29th." (not my emphasis on 'all' btw) is just not correct.
 
AAH732UAL
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sat May 24, 2008 6:10 pm

-A320/J-SDIW/C

Ha looks like the FAA made a mistake! Should be -A320/M-SDIW/C not J, J is the old suffix for DME/DME/IRU Big grin

One a side not, I guess this will be good but I am not understanding it totally?

1) Are the suffix's going to still be used? I guess from reading the FAA type of ICAO FP, they will?
2) Why is the FAA adding to the ICAO stuff? At least to me, it looks like they are adding more RMKs and stuff then a normal ICAO FP has. For example FF KZJXZRZX 232352 KGAITTTD, what really does this mean?

Idk if this will be such a problem for actual FLYING on June 29th, b/c a lot of the pilots for major airlines don't really bother much w/ looking over the dispatch mombo jumbo from what I have seen.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sat May 24, 2008 6:44 pm

Gee - welcome to the 80's, America  Smile - I used to have to type those ICAO FPL's back when I did national service in the SAAF in 1985. I don't see what all the fuss is about, they make perfect sense to me.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sat May 24, 2008 6:58 pm



Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 10):
b/c a lot of the pilots for major airlines don't really bother much w/ looking over the dispatch mombo jumbo from what I have seen.

If they bother to look at it at all.

Quote:
1) Are the suffix's going to still be used?

Suffixes are still there. Basically, it breaks down to this: Weight class / Navigation equipment (4 letters) / Transponder type.

Quote:
For example FF KZJXZRZX 232352 KGAITTTD, what really does this mean?

That is the FF (Flight Plan Start), Destination address, filing time, and origin.

For more info on what an ICAO flight plan looks like in a blank state, here's a link to the PDF provided by the FAA:

http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa7233-4.pdf
 
fxra
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sat May 24, 2008 7:27 pm

Truth be told, I much prefer the ICAO format, since it contains so much more information about equipment and

Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 10):
-A320/J-SDIW/C

Ha looks like the FAA made a mistake! Should be -A320/M-SDIW/C not J, J is the old suffix for DME/DME/IRU Big grin

The FAA make a mistake??? Never, but that does look like the case here.

Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 10):
1) Are the suffix's going to still be used? I guess from reading the FAA type of ICAO FP, they will?
2) Why is the FAA adding to the ICAO stuff? At least to me, it looks like they are adding more RMKs and stuff then a normal ICAO FP has. For example FF KZJXZRZX 232352 KGAITTTD, what really does this mean?

1. yes and no.. the old H/B763/J suffixes will not be used, instead, as above.. the FAA will use the ICAO standard equipment codes. I'm not sure I'll get all these right, but on the above one (as it should be) A320/M-SDIW/C, so thats tells me its an A320/wake turbulence category Medium - (S) with standard equipment (VHF, ADF,ILS,VOR), (D)DME, (I)Inertial Nav, and (W)RVSM / with a Mode C transponder. (OK i looked those up but i was right in my guessing).

2. KZJXZRZX and KGAITTTD are AFTN printer names. The first one is for Jacksonville Center, the second one in the example you found (i think i found the same one) where the flight plan was filed from, this case the airport ID is
KGAI and its some printer there. The numbers (232352) are the date/time the filing was sent. the 23rd day at 2352Z

Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 10):
a lot of the pilots for major airlines don't really bother much w/ looking over the dispatch mombo jumbo from what I have seen.

that's not comforting, but explains alot

This whole change over thing is no big deal, I prefer ICAO to FAA flight plan types. The FAA already accepts them, and has for years for anything not flying in the contiguous US. ANd most airlines have been filing them for years on int'l plans. The software is in place already, we're jsut syaing to the US carriers to use ICAO standard now as primary.
 
cptspeaking
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sat May 24, 2008 10:32 pm

On a similar note, I heard that in the near future, TAFs will be issued as a 36 hour forecast instead of 24...anybody know anything about this?

Seems the FAA is finally trying to get in tune with the rest of the planet...
 
fxra
Posts: 600
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 1999 1:03 am

RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sun May 25, 2008 3:33 am



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 12):
Suffixes are still there. Basically, it breaks down to this: Weight class / Navigation equipment (4 letters) / Transponder type.

SO apparently I was just a bit too slow. The only thing I would like to add is that the Nav equip codes can be any number. In the case above it was 4, it can however extend to any number of codes. I've seen 8 or so before.

The FAA does have a a few US specific requirements, but they are mostl found in the remarks section and mostly relate to RNP levels.

Quoting CptSpeaking (Reply 14):
On a similar note, I heard that in the near future, TAFs will be issued as a 36 hour forecast instead of 24...anybody know anything about this?

I believe its 30 hours, but yes you should see the longer TAF's in the near future. However, I don't think every airport will be issuing the longer TAFs, only major int'l gateways. You won't see a 30 hour taf for say... SYR.
 
Illini_152
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sun May 25, 2008 6:36 am

They are making the change because the existing equipment codes do not discern between RNAV1 and RNAV2 capable aircraft. This is becoming an issue with more and more RNAV arrivals and DP's, and there are many GPS based FMS's still out there that cannot fly the newer routes.

And more than a few FSS briefers I've talked to still have no clue about this change...
 
speedbird128
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sun May 25, 2008 9:11 am



Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 10):
J is the old suffix for DME/DME/IRU

... and is the new designator for CPDLC/Datalink.

If an aircraft is ADS/CPDLC equipped, it would have J included in the equipment, and a D appended to the transponder mode.

ie. SDGHIJRWXY/SD would be correct.

What is sometimes forgotten, is that if those letters, or the registration on the FPL differ to reality (if the J or D is ommitted, or an aicraft is sub'd without refiling), then the ATC system (ours anyway) will not grant an ADS/CPDLC logon. Also, the pilot must attempt to log on with the correct ICAO FPL callsign, as that will also cause logon to be rejected if it's not identical.

I don't know if these are all standard limitations (which I imagine they might be, which prevents an incorrect logon), but they certainly are restrictions on the Eurocat X system I use.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sun May 25, 2008 11:16 am



Quoting FXRA (Reply 15):
The only thing I would like to add is that the Nav equip codes can be any number. In the case above it was 4,

That's basically what I was pointing out to him, since he didn't understand what he was looking at. I wasn't pointing out a maximum. However, you do make a good point.
 
AAH732UAL
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sun May 25, 2008 11:41 am

Yeah I know about ICAO suffix's and stuff, I just could not figure from the FAA if the current suffix's were going to show up in a FP. I guess they will according to yall.

Yeah there is more then 4 codes that can be put in the FP from my understanding..... For example, the A320/M-SWXI/C would also have Y for CMNPS and G for GNSS/GPS MRR in the FMS(C) if it had them onboard and so on and so on. So in reality, it can be as long or as short as what is on borad. That is why I really liked the suffix's, but I guess they where very broad in defining certian things. I mean you would see sometimes for example, a /K(FMS w/ DME/DME) file for an RNAV SID/STAR..... No bigger right? Chart notes would say DME/DME/IRU... so /J or /E w/o RVSM not /K but idk.

I guess change is good, and just like HAR, this will make things better in the end!

Thanks, I guess I did not understand FF and all that b/c that is a bunch of controller stuff  Smile
 
Goldenshield
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sun May 25, 2008 12:02 pm



Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 19):
Thanks, I guess I did not understand FF and all that b/c that is a bunch of controller stuff

I'm not sure if controllers use it (Perhaps one can point it out?), since it's more of a computer communication thing. It's basically like sending a Y-message between stations at an airline, except here, we're sending a Y-message to the FAA's computers to file the plan. There's also a format for sending an amended release, but as of right now, the software I use doesn't support it, and calling a center to amend it is much easier.
 
speedbird128
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Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:30 am

RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sun May 25, 2008 2:13 pm



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 20):
Perhaps one can point it out?

Us ATC's infrequently have to deal with those message start priority identifiers. Our communications and filter centre deals with the majority of sending/receiving of these messages.

There are 4 types, GG, FF, DD, SS.

GG is lowest priority, and SS is the highest priority (SS is reserved here in south africa only for SAR messages where they are critically important). I think these priority identifiers were devised when the telex machine was the prevailing method of sending these messages, and if there were several, priority would have been determined by the message identifier.

But with the advent of the computerised systems, processing is much faster. But on the PC's here we still have the different priority 'bins' and would always process them accordingly from SS down to GG.

Our Eurocat system does allow us to send nearly every conceivable message at the click of a button, and almost always I send it as a DD priority.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sun May 25, 2008 5:33 pm



Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 21):
(SS is reserved here in south africa only for SAR messages where they are critically important).

INCERFA, ALERFA and DETRESFA (IIRC - that's what they used to be. Flash traffic, drop everything !).
 
speedbird128
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sun May 25, 2008 5:37 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 22):
INCERFA, ALERFA and DETRESFA (IIRC - that's what they used to be. Flash traffic, drop everything !).

Correct. And the messages cancelling them.

Remember the 3 bells?
 
JGPH1A
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Sun May 25, 2008 7:49 pm



Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 23):
Remember the 3 bells?

Oh yes. I used to work at Waterkloof in the signal office, we used to route civvy AFTN traffic to military ATC and vice-versa - the office was open 24/7. In 12 months and some camps I only ever got one ALERFA - came in the middle of the night, those bells scared the be-jaysus out of me ! Never rerouted a message so fast in me life !
 
Mir
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Mon May 26, 2008 4:27 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 5):
Does anyone know what prompted the change?

A desire to conform to ICAO standards. Same way that pilots certificates are going to say "English Proficient" in the future - don't have those two words, can't fly internationally.

-Mir
 
AAH732UAL
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Tue May 27, 2008 2:39 am

Hey guys I just thought of somethings!

1) So if A320/J is not going to be used anymore for example, how is controllers going to know if the airplane can do RNAV(GPS) approaches or RNAV(RNP) w/ the SAAAR (Even though the pilots have to request the RNP stuff I think), b/c NAV/RNVD1E2A1 just covers the Terminal area and not the actual approach.

2) Are all the FAA RNAV approach chanters going to get remade w/ the proper on-board equipment stuff in-lieu of RNP or GPS and DME/DME RNP0.3 NA.

3) Are the RNAV stuff going to be renamed RNAV(GNSS) just like the rest of the ICAO stuff?

I have been mulling over and looking for answers all day.

If they have to re issue the re-done charts, that is gonna add to the already rediculas number of waste charts. Like when the airport elevation changes by 1 foot..... you need to re-issue and stuff like that lol!  bitelip 
 
lowrider
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Tue May 27, 2008 3:23 am

[

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):
Same way that pilots certificates are going to say "English Proficient" in the future - don't have those two words, can't fly internationally.

Not until Mar 2009. Big grin I thought this requirement was a little redundant as you certify your english profciency when you fill out the app for your certificate. I believe it is question #7.
 
AAH732UAL
Posts: 242
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Tue May 27, 2008 3:35 am



Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 26):
2) Are all the FAA RNAV approach chanters going to get remade w/ the proper on-board equipment stuff in-lieu of RNP or GPS and DME/DME RNP0.3 NA.

Should read Chart notes, gotta proof read  Big grin
 
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tb727
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Tue May 27, 2008 4:12 am

Well, I hope fltplan.com takes care of everything, then I am good to go!
 
fxra
Posts: 600
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Tue May 27, 2008 5:42 am



Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 26):
1) So if A320/J is not going to be used anymore for example, how is controllers going to know if the airplane can do RNAV(GPS) approaches or RNAV(RNP) w/ the SAAAR (Even though the pilots have to request the RNP stuff I think), b/c NAV/RNVD1E2A1 just covers the Terminal area and not the actual approach.

2) Are all the FAA RNAV approach chanters going to get remade w/ the proper on-board equipment stuff in-lieu of RNP or GPS and DME/DME RNP0.3 NA.

3) Are the RNAV stuff going to be renamed RNAV(GNSS) just like the rest of the ICAO stuff?

I have been mulling over and looking for answers all day.

If they have to re issue the re-done charts, that is gonna add to the already rediculas number of waste charts. Like when the airport elevation changes by 1 foot..... you need to re-issue and stuff like that lol!

Lets see, to the bst of my knowledge

1. The dispatchers/flight crew should know the RNP status of th aircraft and plan for it. If the crew is issued a clearance for an RNAV (GPS) approach and do not have GPS (or whatever requirement is listed) they should not accept the clearance. Also, the initial equipment cods will indicate if GPS is installed
2. as indicated above, its in the notes.
3. Haven' seen anythign to inidicate the GNSS label will be used. Though for standardization sake, why not.

Jepp or the FAA don't seem to care how much paperwork is involved or wasted by changes. I must admit, i've gotte tons of literature at work on this stuff, and pretty much haven't read much of it.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Tue May 27, 2008 6:27 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 27):
I thought this requirement was a little redundant as you certify your english profciency when you fill out the app for your certificate. I believe it is question #7.

Yeah, it is pretty redundant, but apparently ICAO says it has to be on the certificate.  Yeah sure

Fortunately, my new commercial-multi certificate should be arriving in the mail soon, so I don't have to deal with the hassle of sending in for a new one.

-Mir
 
AAH732UAL
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:41 pm

RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Tue May 27, 2008 2:17 pm

Quoting FXRA (Reply 30):
1. The dispatchers/flight crew should know the RNP status of th aircraft and plan for it. If the crew is issued a clearance for an RNAV (GPS) approach and do not have GPS (or whatever requirement is listed) they should not accept the clearance. Also, the initial equipment cods will indicate if GPS is installed
2. as indicated above, its in the notes

Makes sense, but I was sorta thinking for down the road when the RNAV stuff is going to be the standard and the ILS be the minority That would be a lot of extra time fumbling around asking if you can do this and that. O well it will be fun! Thanks

[Edited 2008-05-27 07:21:30]
 
fxra
Posts: 600
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RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Tue May 27, 2008 6:15 pm



Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 32):
Makes sense, but I was sorta thinking for down the road when the RNAV stuff is going to be the standard and the ILS be the minority That would be a lot of extra time fumbling around asking if you can do this and that. O well it will be fun! Thanks

You're an optimist, what ever make syou think the FAA has a plan for "down the road?" I think you'll see ILS for while still.
 
AAH732UAL
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:41 pm

RE: New FAA Flight Plans Next Month?

Tue May 27, 2008 6:21 pm



Quoting FXRA (Reply 33):
You're an optimist, what ever make syou think the FAA has a plan for "down the road?" I think you'll see ILS for while still.

Lol just now realized that  Wink

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