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will
Topic Author
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Fuel Saving Ideas

Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:24 pm

G’day All,

It’s been a number of years since I last posted on airliners.net forum and I can say it has changed much from its early days…

Anyway...!!! “Fuel Saving Ideas”

I have notice that there are several airline employees frequenting a.net now, all with a vast range of skills and knowledge. With that I was wonder what ideas and change your airline or your operation is suggesting, or even doing, in response to the high price of oil we are confronted with nowadays.

It would be interesting to hear of sensible and even radical ideas that are getting' around.

Plus... Several months ago Virgin Atlantic was look at towing aircraft to the runway for start up, instead of taxing all the way. What came of the project? And what were the issues? I believe the idea was scraped.

Many thanks for you comments…

Kind Regards,

Will……….
 
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zeke
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:59 pm

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HAWK21M
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:40 pm

Fly slower.
Taxi out/in with one Engine.
Use the Tug as far aspossible.
Use the GPU as soon asAvailable.
Switch off Apu when Engines are on line or GPU available.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:34 am



Quoting Will (Thread starter):
Several months ago Virgin Atlantic was look at towing aircraft to the runway for start up, instead of taxing all the way. What came of the project? And what were the issues? I believe the idea was scraped.

There are some issues with using tugs all the way. If you had a tug that could be commanded by the airplane, it gets better, but there are horrendous coordination issues involved.

On the other hand, powered nose wheels have been tested and Delta thinks enough of them to get into an exclusive agreement with WheelTug (www.wheeltug.com) so they at least think there's some promise there.

Tom.
 
khelmDTW
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:42 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 3):

Pfff,

forget the wheel tug, all you need is people! Big grin

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jakub Michalak



But serisously that looks very promising!
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration"
 
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keesje
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:54 pm

I did a short haul 737/A320 big prop "Turboliner"on pprune and folks helped me to rationalize it. Should at least save 25% Direct Operating costs (fuel). Initial versions had intgrated wheeltug too.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z160/keesje_pics/turbolinermai17.jpg
It was moved to Tech Ops. https://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/229126/
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sprout5199
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:04 pm

How about a big conveyor belt to take off---oh wait you can't take off from a conveyor belt can you?  duck   duck   stirthepot 

Dan in Jupiter
 
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keesje
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:13 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 6):
How about a big conveyor belt to take off---oh wait you can't take off from a conveyor belt can you?

Maybe if you fix it up side down under the aircraft..  idea 
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
sprout5199
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:16 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 7):
Maybe if you fix it up side down under the aircraft..

Are you saying that it will only work in Australia?

Dan in Jupiter
 
nomadd22
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:50 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 8):
Maybe if you fix it up side down under the aircraft..

Are you saying that it will only work in Australia?

So, you'd have a converor belt down under the plane when you were up over Down Under?
Anon
 
josekmlb
Posts: 195
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:23 am



Quoting KhelmDTW (Reply 4):
Pfff,

forget the wheel tug, all you need is people!

I rather push the planes out with a push tug the MD-88 is a little bit heavy to push by hand  Wink
 
Mir
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:45 am



Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 9):
So, you'd have a converor belt down under the plane when you were up over Down Under?

 faint 

Maybe it's just that it's late, but I can't figure out which way is up or down any more after reading that.  Smile

-Mir
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Zkpilot
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:02 am



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 6):
How about a big conveyor belt to take off---oh wait you can't take off from a conveyor belt can you?

You can takeoff from a conveyor belt provided its moving fast enough and you are fixed to it (until you reach takeoff speed)...(this is effectively like a steam catapault on an aircraft carrier)... I think what you are referring to is the conveyor belt in the opposite direction...ie like a treadmill....

Another option could be to install Maglev like catapaults on runways.... it would certainly save say a 747 about 2 tons of fuel... it would however be expensive to instal and safety issues would have to be resolved.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
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keesje
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:16 pm



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 12):
Another option could be to install Maglev like catapaults on runways.... it would certainly save say a 747 about 2 tons of fuel... it would however be expensive to instal and safety issues would have to be resolved.

Yes / maybe its a better to beef up the tugs  idea #2

http://www.goldhofer.de/fotos/2005_11_17-02-g.jpg

If you mix this baby with a Lamborghini...

maybe I better register this before someone gets IP protection..

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"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
dragon6172
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:34 pm



Quoting Will (Thread starter):
Plus... Several months ago Virgin Atlantic was look at towing aircraft to the runway for start up, instead of taxing all the way. What came of the project? And what were the issues? I believe the idea was scraped.

I think Boeing told them that they could not guarantee the life of involved components (nose strut, mounting structure) because of the added stress. Basically, the life of the nose strut is based on number of landings and they probably factor in average stresses of towing. Tripling or quadrupling the amount of towing (and starting and stopping), they do not have the information on what life limits of the strut and associated mounting structure and what not would be.
Phrogs Phorever
 
SlamClick
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:15 pm

Here is a simple one:

It is very common for airlines to taxi in on one engine and without the APU running. Both produce fuel savings. Problem is, the ground power is attached to the jetway and cannot be plugged into the airplane and delivering power until the jetway is docked with the airplane and no longer moving. (to prevent jetways from running over cables I suppose) Result: One engine kept running at the gate, burning fuel, making noise and creating a risk to the safety of ramp personnel until a jetway driver parks the building next to the airplane. I've seen this take a couple of extra minutes.

Fix that and the "single engine taxi" and "use GPU over APU power" fuel savings measure will actually work. Times the number of operations per day = big savings.

My recommendation: Remove ground power plugs from jetways and bring them in from the aircraft right where the receptacle is. Won't be cheap in the short term but it sure would in the long term.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
avt007
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:18 pm

My concern with taxiing out on one engine is the strain on the poor thing. I worry about the wear on the engine if all the parts aren't up to a proper operating temperature long enough before pouring the coals to it.
Towing just doesn't work, because your typical airport has no road for the tugs to get back to the ramp. Plus, you have to buy a lot of extra tugs, and they are darned expensive, as well as additional staff.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:54 pm



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 16):
My concern with taxiing out on one engine is the strain on the poor thing. I worry about the wear on the engine if all the parts aren't up to a proper operating temperature long enough before pouring the coals to it.

That is a concern. However, it has been considered and all carriers that I know of have a certain minimum time to run the engine before they can go to takeoff thrust.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
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keesje
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:08 pm

About electrical drive; the turboliner in reply 5 originaly had integrated wheeltug drives in the main landing gear riven by a APU with silencer. It would be able to push back itself and start the engines on a tbd location near the runway. After landing when leaving the runway an automatic cooldown/shutdown procedure would be started and the APU / Electric drive would take over. It could get veru quiet around the terminal..

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z160/keesje_pics/turbolinermarkIIItechnology.jpg
click to enlarge

Pilots at PPrune were afraid of technical complications & weight. That's why I replaced it with a more conservative BAE146 type of landing gear. Props are suppose to save about 20% over similar technology turbofans..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:39 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 17):
That is a concern. However, it has been considered and all carriers that I know of have a certain minimum time to run the engine before they can go to takeoff thrust.

The reverse exists too.Most Powerplants need to run at min 3-5 mins Idle thrust prior to shutdown,if operated at a higher thrust earlier.observed normally during ground runs.Its mainly a cooling concern then.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
josekmlb
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RE: Fuel Saving Ideas

Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:58 pm

I was going to bed and did not catch the full story on the radio, but I think they said something about cutting in flight movies for fuel saving and that it would save about $10,000. I dont know which airline or if all but that will suck if you dont own a laptop or psp.

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