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at777
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No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:30 pm

The other day when I was at CLT and saw the LH A346 take off, they didn't put the gear up until 2 minutes afterwards. Today I was walking outside my house I looked up and saw her flying over and noticed the gear was still down. Now I live in south Charlotte and it's probably about 10 miles or more from the airport.
Why would they not put the gear up right after taking off? That's a lot of drag on the plane and burning more fuel? I don't understand why they would do that.
I looked on flightaware to see if it was diverted, but it wasn't. Anyone have any ideas or answers on what happened?

Ashley in CLT
 
Leezyjet
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:35 pm

Normally this is done if a brake unit has been locked out, to give the wheel a chance to spin down before the gear is retracted. Or if the brakes are exremely hot due to a short turn round (still hot from the landing) and excessive use on taxi out, then the wheels may be left out for a while to let the brakes cool a bit before they retract the gear.

It is a completely normal procedure and although you are right about the extra drag and fuel burn, sometimes it is necessary for the reasons stated above.

In very very rare circumstances, they might have just forgot !!. It does happen !!.

 Smile
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LASoctoberB6
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:46 pm

Funny you should mention that. I've seen two United A320s takeoff today and they didn't let up the gear for a while after takeoff.
[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
 
Arcrftlvr
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:00 pm



Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 1):
Or if the brakes are exremely hot due to a short turn round (still hot from the landing) and excessive use on taxi out, then the wheels may be left out for a while to let the brakes cool a bit before they retract the gear.

Presumably it was the long haul flight back to FRA which means it sat at the gate long enough to allow for sufficient cooling of the brakes. Therefore, I would venture to say it was most likely a result of excessive braking on the taxi out. For some reason Airbus jets are more prone to hot brakes than Boeing. Does anyone know why?
 
twal1011727
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:04 pm



Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 1):
Normally this is done if a brake unit has been locked out, to give the wheel a chance to spin down before the gear is retracted.

As far as I'm concerned....I wouldn't accept an A/C that has a brake unit locked out.
Your explanation of hot brakes sounds alot more plausible.

KD
 
at777
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:43 am

well I just looked on flightaware and saw it was first diverted to IAD then to Shannon, Ireland. Something just seems funny. I would put a link, but I'm on my iPhone. Sorry!

Ashley in CLT
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:58 am

I've seen it happen here a couple of times too

With NZ ATRs, its not forgettin as they alert tower that gear will be down for a while
 
lowrider
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:00 am



Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 4):
As far as I'm concerned....I wouldn't accept an A/C that has a brake unit locked out.

Why? If the affects are accounted for in the performance calculations (and they are, it is a requirement of the MEL) and there are no other compounding conditions, it is acceptable. It may not be desireable, but how often do we get planes in the condition we want?
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AA737-823
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:01 am



Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 4):
I wouldn't accept an A/C that has a brake unit locked out.

What? What do you mean, you "wouldn't accept"?
Are you a captain?

Odd, either way, because brakes get locked out all the time, particularly in airplanes with enough tires (therefore brakes) to land safely without one or two sets of them.
747s are certified with an ENTIRE MAIN GEAR WORTH of brakes (that's all four wheels on one truck) locked out.

So, whether you accept it or not, Boeing accepts it, so...... overruled.


Anyhow, back to the original question, yes, this is usually done because the brakes got hot during taxi. With temperatures being what they are in Charlotte in the summer, I don't find that hard to imagine at all.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:23 am



Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 4):

As far as I'm concerned....I wouldn't accept an A/C that has a brake unit locked out.

Oh blah blah If it's in the MEL the company requires the crew to accept it. This does not make the flight unsafe.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:07 pm



Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 1):
this is done if a brake unit has been locked out

On the B757,A locked out brake would have a plug in the shuttle valve to enable retract braking,not sure about A346 though.I feel its more to do with Brake cooling time.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
Oh blah blah If it's in the MEL the company requires the crew to accept it. This does not make the flight unsafe

The pilot can refuse to accept the aircraft & the AME need not clear the aircraft under MEL if it is considered unsafe to do so.Its still lies with the Flt & Mx crew.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
lowrider
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:41 pm



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
So, whether you accept it or not, Boeing accepts it, so...... overruled.

Not so, unless the PIC happens to be named Boeing.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
Oh blah blah If it's in the MEL the company requires the crew to accept it

Don't be too quick to jump on the guy before he justifies his position. I know said I would accept the plane provided there was no compounding condition, but I want to stress that last caveat. Use of the MEL, like many things, must be tempered with good judgement. I probably would accept the plane, under most conditions. But not before I looked at any other MELs/CDLs, weather at destination and alternate, and runway numbers and conditions for departure, destination, and alternate. "But the MEL said it was ok" will not save you at the investigation.
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Starlionblue
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:41 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 11):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
Oh blah blah If it's in the MEL the company requires the crew to accept it

Don't be too quick to jump on the guy before he justifies his position. I know said I would accept the plane provided there was no compounding condition, but I want to stress that last caveat. Use of the MEL, like many things, must be tempered with good judgement. I probably would accept the plane, under most conditions. But not before I looked at any other MELs/CDLs, weather at destination and alternate, and runway numbers and conditions for departure, destination, and alternate. "But the MEL said it was ok" will not save you at the investigation.

Fair enough. But that wasn't what the poster said.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
lowrider
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:10 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
But that wasn't what the poster said.

True, I was just hoping to hear a rationale for his position. Sometimes I am surprised by some of the points people come up with.
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PhilSquares
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:55 pm



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
What? What do you mean, you "wouldn't accept"?
Are you a captain?

Odd, either way, because brakes get locked out all the time, particularly in airplanes with enough tires (therefore brakes) to land safely without one or two sets of them.
747s are certified with an ENTIRE MAIN GEAR WORTH of brakes (that's all four wheels on one truck) locked out.

So, whether you accept it or not, Boeing accepts it, so...... overruled.

There are several MEL issues that are dispatchable but I, as a Captain will not accept. I don't care what the MEL says.

On some aircraft 2 engine type, the MEL allows the dispatch of 1 idg and the APU can be inop. I won't take the aircraft and it's ok in the MEL.

Another example would be getting dispatched with one probe heater inop. The MEL says it's ok but the restriction is to avoid icing conditions. That's great if you are flying a 152, but in the 744 it's a little tough to do. Again, it might be correct but it's not smart.

Just because the MEL says it's acceptable doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.

In all my years of flying I have never had a decision like that challenged.
Fly fast, live slow
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:27 pm



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 14):
On some aircraft 2 engine type, the MEL allows the dispatch of 1 idg and the APU can be inop

which type are you referring to?
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PhilSquares
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:39 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 15):
which type are you referring to?

On the 320, if it's not in ETOPS operations, the MEL allows the dispatch with one IDG inop and the APU inop.
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Caryjack
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:29 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
it's in the MEL



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
regds
MEL

Folks,
I often see the term MEL refering to a document or used as a closing to a post. According to Google it's Mel Gibson or Melbourne. Please, what is MEL?  confused 
Thanks,
Cary
 
fxra
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:32 am



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 16):
On the 320, if it's not in ETOPS operations, the MEL allows the dispatch with one IDG inop and the APU inop.

The thought being (and mind you I don't know jack about A320's) that in the event of the failure of the last IDG, the airplane has sufficient backups (ships battery, Hydraulic powered generator???) to get to an airport. Mind you you'll have have emergency powered instruments, but it should be enough to get you safely on the ground.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 14):
Another example would be getting dispatched with one probe heater inop. The MEL says it's ok but the restriction is to avoid icing conditions. That's great if you are flying a 152, but in the 744 it's a little tough to do. Again, it might be correct but it's not smart.

Depends on where you're flying, You can get a airplane cross country (the US) in no icing some days, some days.. you can't move it across the ramp without freezing up. Again, the situation must be examined in relation to the MEL restrictions, but to say you always refuse MEL 12-34-5 is a bit harsh. The worst restriction I've ever seen, and I can't believe it's even written in, is the no visible moisture operations. Sure you can probably get from LAS to PSP without hitting a cloud some days, but seriously... who wrote that one and thought it's a viable alternative more than .1% of the time?? But again, I always look to try and make it work... even if 99.9% of the time it won't.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
On the B757,A locked out brake would have a plug in the shuttle valve to enable retract braking,not sure about A346 though.I feel its more to do with Brake cooling time.

While I can't speak specifically for the A346, the B747 and B767 both have two methods of brake deactivation. One involves some special tool from boeing and carries a minimal weight penalty usually related to the loss of one brake and the required lengthening of the accelerated-stop distance. The other method involves capping a brake line, which requires a more severe penalty, plus a climb weight penalty because the gear must be left down longer for the spin down of the wheels. If retracted immediately as normal, the wheel will spin on their sides in the wells, which cause a sort of unbalanced gyroscopic effect with resulting control issues. (So i've been told). All I know for sure is when I see the brake capped MEL, I cringe and start doing math. And ask some one else to double check me to be sure. Even so, on a long runway with minimal obsticals, you an get a 744 up without taking too much of a hit.
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PhilSquares
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:33 am



Quoting FXRA (Reply 18):

The thought being (and mind you I don't know jack about A320's) that in the event of the failure of the last IDG, the airplane has sufficient backups (ships battery, Hydraulic powered generator???) to get to an airport. Mind you you'll have have emergency powered instruments, but it should be enough to get you safely on the ground.

But, why take the risk? Aviation is all about managing risks and putting yourself in that situation is asking for trouble. Interestingly enough, this carrier later amended their MEL to prohibit the dispatch with an IDG inop and APU inop.

Quoting FXRA (Reply 18):
Depends on where you're flying, You can get a airplane cross country (the US) in no icing some days, some days.. you can't move it across the ramp without freezing up. Again, the situation must be examined in relation to the MEL restrictions, but to say you always refuse MEL 12-34-5 is a bit harsh. The worst restriction I've ever seen, and I can't believe it's even written in, is the no visible moisture operations. Sure you can probably get from LAS to PSP without hitting a cloud some days, but seriously... who wrote that one and thought it's a viable alternative more than .1% of the time?? But again, I always look to try and make it work... even if 99.9% of the time it won't.

Depends on where and when you're flying. Let's take my aircraft as an example. The 744 flies pretty much world wide, even at night. How can the PIC reasonably avoid icing conditions? In reality, you can't. At night it's virtually impossible, during the day, if you avoid clouds, you might be able to do that, but in a worldwide international operation, it's impossible. Again, it's legal but is it smart?
Fly fast, live slow
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:29 am



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 16):
On the 320, if it's not in ETOPS operations, the MEL allows the dispatch with one IDG inop and the APU inop.

Interesting.Thanks.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 17):
Folks,
I often see the term MEL refering to a document or used as a closing to a post. According to Google it's Mel Gibson or Melbourne. Please, what is MEL?

MEL - Minimum Equipment list.
MEL - Melbourne
MEL - My Name  wink 

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:31 am



Quoting Caryjack (Reply 17):
I often see the term MEL refering to a document or used as a closing to a post. According to Google it's Mel Gibson or Melbourne. Please, what is MEL?

"Minimum Equipment List". It's a document (or I guess a set of documents) specifying what needs to be on/working the plane to allow legal dispatch. Engines (2)... Kidding. But it can be things like:

Things like
APU - Can be inoperable in some cases. Repair needs to be effected within x days.
Reverser - Can be inoperable in some cases.

Etc... The MEL varies per type and so forth.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
PhilSquares
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:02 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 20):


Quoting Caryjack (Reply 17):
I often see the term MEL refering to a document or used as a closing to a post. According to Google it's Mel Gibson or Melbourne. Please, what is MEL?

"Minimum Equipment List". It's a document (or I guess a set of documents) specifying what needs to be on/working the plane to allow legal dispatch. Engines (2)... Kidding. But it can be things like:

Things like
APU - Can be inoperable in some cases. Repair needs to be effected within x days.
Reverser - Can be inoperable in some cases.

Etc... The MEL varies per type and so forth.

Good explanation. Just an additional point. The MEL at each airline is a further refinement of the MMEL, Master Minimum Equipment List. The MMEL is produced by the aircraft manufacturer and the airline could, in theory, take the MMEL and use that as their MEL. In practice, the airline specific MEL can not be less restrictive than the MMEL and in most cases is more restrictive than the MMEL.
Fly fast, live slow
 
tdscanuck
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:45 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 20):
"Minimum Equipment List". It's a document (or I guess a set of documents) specifying what needs to be on/working the plane to allow legal dispatch.

Slight, but important, clarification...the MEL is the list of things that do *not* have to be on/working to allow legal dispatch.

If the item you're curious about isn't listed in the MEL then you have to have it. The only things you'll find in the MEL are those things that you can go with at least some of them inoperative.

So, for example, engines are not on the MEL. All the engines have to be working to do a normal dispatch. Generators are on the MEL...you can usually have one inoperative and still dispatch.

Tom.
 
Caryjack
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:43 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 20):
"Minimum Equipment List". It's a document (or I guess a set of documents) specifying what needs to be on/working the plane to allow legal dispatch.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 22):
The MEL at each airline is a further refinement of the MMEL



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 23):
Generators are on the MEL...you can usually have one inoperative and still dispatch.

Can I say that the manufacture submits a minimum MMEL for the basic airplane then the individual owners produce MELs for their particular configuration? For example, one carrier may install options adding little to weight or auxiliary power usage, so their MEL can approach the MMEL. Another carrier may specify heavier options requiring more auxiliary power. In this case that MEL may exclude more generators and less brake and thrust reverser deactivations.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):

MEL - Minimum Equipment list.
MEL - Melbourne
MEL - My Name

 laughing 
MEL,
With nearly 25,000 posts and an RR of 50 I understand why MEL is used to close so many posts.  thumbsup 
regds,
Cary
 
tdscanuck
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:49 am



Quoting Caryjack (Reply 24):
Can I say that the manufacture submits a minimum MMEL for the basic airplane then the individual owners produce MELs for their particular configuration?

Yes. The MMEL is part of the type certificate (I think)...it's definitely considered instructions for continued airworthiness. Every operator needs an MEL as part of their ops spec, which can be more restrictive but not less than the MMEL.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 24):
For example, one carrier may install options adding little to weight or auxiliary power usage, so their MEL can approach the MMEL. Another carrier may specify heavier options requiring more auxiliary power. In this case that MEL may exclude more generators and less brake and thrust reverser deactivations.

I'm not sure this is a good example...I'm not sure how you could add options that required that much extra power (that couldn't be load shed) and not violate the basis of the type certificate. Although I guess it would be possible to incorporate an STC that forced you to amend the MMEL.

Tom.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:34 am



Quoting Caryjack (Reply 24):

My Collegues at work joke around with this that if MEL is on board,the Aircraft will fly  wink ,The problem is I'm mainly stationed on ground. Smile

On the requirements of the MEL,The operator is required to prepare the MEL based on the MMEL issued by theState of design/manufacturer for the use and guidance of flight and ground operations personnel.

The MEL should be tailored to the individual operator’sroutes and procedures within the constraints imposed by the MMEL. The MMEL is not normally part of the required aircraft documentation and it is frequently necessary for an operator utilizing aircraft manufactured in another State to request a copy of the current MMEL and amendments as they occur, in order to develop and maintain an MEL for approval by Regulatory Authorities.

In developing an MEL, the philosophy should be to authorize continuation of flight
with inoperative equipment only when the inoperative equipment does not render
the aircraft unairworthy for the particular flight.

Limitations, procedures andsubstitutions may be used to provide conditions under which the inoperative equipment will not make the operation unsafe or the aircraft unairworthy.

This is not a philosophy which permits reduced safety in order to fly to a base where
repairs can be made, but rather a philosophy which permits safe operations for a
take off from a maintenance base or en-route stop. It is emphasized that the
operator should exercise close operational control to ensure that the aircraft are MEL & not dispatched with multiple MEL items inoperative without first determining that
any interface or interrelationship between the inoperative systems or components
will not result in a degradation in the level of safety or an undue increase in crew
workload.

The MEL is not intended to provide for continued operation of the aircraft for
extended periods with MEL items unserviceable.

In the case of unserviceable MEL items, the operator should generally make repairs at the first station where repairs or replacement can be made, but in any case repair should be
accomplished at the flight termination station, since additional unserviceability
may require the aircraft to be removed from service.

MEL need not include items like wings, flight controls, complete engines, landing
gears etc., the airworthiness and correct functioning of which is absolutely
necessary before any flight. It may also not include items like galley equipment,
entertainment systems, passenger convenience equipment, which do not affect
the airworthiness of an aircraft.

All items which affect the airworthiness of aircraft or safety of those carried on
board and are not included in MEL are automatically required to be operative.

The MEL on board comprises the MEL,CDL & DDG which has Operational & Maintenance procedures to despatch an Aircraft for Flt ops & Mx crew respectively.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:28 am



Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 1):
Or if the brakes are exremely hot due to a short turn round (still hot from the landing)

most jets have a min turn time that allows for brake cooloing

Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 4):
As far as I'm concerned....I wouldn't accept an A/C that has a brake unit locked out.



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 11):
But not before I looked at any other MELs/CDLs, weather at destination and alternate, and runway numbers and conditions for departure, destination, and alternate. "But the MEL said it was ok" will not save you at the investigation.

Yes but there are restrictions that limit dispatch with an inop brake. Obviously one MEL item can certainly limit another. I've seen it a lot.
MEL
(M) One may be inoperative provided:
a) Anti-Skid System and braking capability
to all remaining Wheel Brakes is
operative,
b) Center Landing Gear is used,
c) Appropriate Wheel Brake Inoperative
procedures are performed, and
d) Performance penalties are applied.
 
psimpson
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:42 am

[

Quoting AT777 (Thread starter):
The other day when I was at CLT and saw the LH A346 take off, they didn't put the gear up until 2 minutes afterwards. Today I was walking outside my house I looked up and saw her flying over and noticed the gear was still down. Now I live in south Charlotte and it's probably about 10 miles or more from the airport.
Why would they not put the gear up right after taking off? That's a lot of drag on the plane and burning more fuel? I don't understand why they would do that.
I looked on flightaware to see if it was diverted, but it wasn't. Anyone have any ideas or answers on what happened?

Ashley in CLT

Hi AT777

See below link regarding LH A346 at CLT

http://aviationherald.com/h?article=40b4d2ba&opt=0
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:51 am



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 27):
most jets have a min turn time that allows for brake cooloing

At times,the high brake temp can be encountered post chocks off too.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Viscount724
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:36 pm



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 27):
Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 1):
Or if the brakes are exremely hot due to a short turn round (still hot from the landing)

most jets have a min turn time that allows for brake cooloing

Following related item in last week's Aviation Week magazine:

With FAA certification in hand, Boeing has delivered its first 737 with weight-saving carbon brakes to Delta Air Lines. These brakes are common on wide-body transports but until recently were unable to cool off fast enough to meet the turnaround times typical of single-aisle airplanes used on shorter routes. Boeing says Messier-Rugatti’s carbon brakes are 700 lb. lighter than comparable high-capacity steel brakes used on 737-700/-800/ -900ERs and 550 lb. lighter than standard steel brakes used on 737-600/ -700s. Goodrich is developing a competing carbon brake set for 737s.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:37 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 30):
These brakes are common on wide-body transports but until recently were unable to cool off fast enough to meet the turnaround times typical of single-aisle airplanes used on shorter routes

Any Idea what was the Extended cooling time needed?
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
access-air
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:46 pm

I have a question....

Why is it that it seems like an Airbus A330 or 340 or ever the smalelr Busses seem to have a very slow retraction speed almost like they fighting being retracted....I have noticed tho ona Boeing or McDoug or Lockheed or any other type the gear retraction is very quick....

I also have noticed upon rotation usually for a "Heavy" you see what looks like smoke come off the wheels, which I presume is from the brakes stopping the wheels from spinning before retraction.....

Anyway, I have always wondered why it takes sucha long time to actually retract the gear on an Airbus....The exceptiopn with the airbuses is the A300 or A310 which seem to retract at the "normal" speed.....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:33 pm



Quoting Access-Air (Reply 32):
I also have noticed upon rotation usually for a "Heavy" you see what looks like smoke come off the wheels, which I presume is from the brakes stopping the wheels from spinning before retraction.....

Tire Dust when "auto-retract" braking occurs.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
boeing767mech
Posts: 806
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 5:03 pm

RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:56 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 33):
Quoting Access-Air (Reply 32):
I also have noticed upon rotation usually for a "Heavy" you see what looks like smoke come off the wheels, which I presume is from the brakes stopping the wheels from spinning before retraction.....

Tire Dust when "auto-retract" braking occurs.

Shouldn't that read BRAKE DUST since it is happening during wheel spin braking while the gear is being retracted. Tire dust, or tire smoke happens when the tire contacts the runway during landing and roll out..

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
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HAWK21M
Posts: 30125
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:26 am



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 34):
Shouldn't that read BRAKE DUST

I meant Tire dust present on the wheel & brake assy from previous operations,that are shaked off when auto retract braking occurs.
Brake dust can be a contributer too.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
je89_w
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 1:29 pm

RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:01 am

A while back, I've seen (and photographed) a World MD-11 takeoff, and the right and center main gears retracted but the left gear remained down. The MD-11, having just departed HNL, continued its merry way to wherever it was going and didn't have to return for a landing. Wonder why?
 
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jetmech
Posts: 2382
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:14 am

RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:36 am



Quoting Caryjack (Reply 17):

As others have stated, the MEL tells pilots and engineers of the amount of system redundancy loss one can accept, whilst still allowing safe operation of the aircraft. Below are examples of MEL for various systems on a commercial type.

MEL's generally list the number of equipment or redundant systems that have been designed into the aircraft, along with the number one must have remaining to enable continued and safe operation of the aircraft.

Just as important are the various side notes associated with a particular MEL. These side notes not only detail the specific deactivation procedure, but they often contain notes on the cross-effects that the application of the particular MEL may have on other systems.



Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:49 am



Quoting Je89_w (Reply 36):
A while back, I've seen (and photographed) a World MD-11 takeoff, and the right and center main gears retracted but the left gear remained down. The MD-11, having just departed HNL, continued its merry way to wherever it was going and didn't have to return for a landing. Wonder why?

They might have had a minor glitch, solved it 5 minutes later, and continued on.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2495
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:27 pm



Quoting Je89_w (Reply 36):
having just departed HNL, continued its merry way to wherever it was going and didn't have to return for a landing. Wonder why?

As Starlionblue said you can bet your boots they didn't continue with the gear down.
 
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HAWK21M
Posts: 30125
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: No Gear Up Right After Taking Off?

Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:19 am



Quoting Je89_w (Reply 36):
The MD-11, having just departed HNL, continued its merry way to wherever it was going and didn't have to return for a landing. Wonder why?

Probably they did a recycle & it worked...Else under no circumstances would such a flight continue.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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