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Tarantine
Topic Author
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DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:13 pm

Hello, I have been reading a few books on first generation jetliners and I read over and over how the DC-8-63 was the noisiest airliner of them all (except maybe the DC-8 series 10 or the 707-100 series with the water injected JT3Cs). What made the 63 series so much louder than the -62, -61 or the other early jetliners? I have read the -63 was actually banned from some airports unless the airlines reduced the takeoff weight. I can only assume that the -63 at max take off weight was the noisiest because the inability to "cut back" power at takeoff. Any older timers know the facts?

Thanks!
 
timz
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:51 pm



Quoting Tarantine (Thread starter):
(except maybe the DC-8 series 10 or the 707-100 series with the water injected JT3Cs).

And all the other turbojet airliners, including Concorde.

Maybe it was just a matter of MTOW -- hard to see why a -63 would be noisier than a -61 at the same weight. In any case, if you stood next to the runway as a -63 departed you wouldn't find the noise to be anything special.
 
KELPkid
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:08 am



Quoting Tarantine (Thread starter):
Hello, I have been reading a few books on first generation jetliners and I read over and over how the DC-8-63 was the noisiest airliner of them all (except maybe the DC-8 series 10 or the 707-100 series with the water injected JT3Cs).

Hmmm, wonder how the Convair CV-990 missed the cut on this list? From what I understand, it was the noisiest, least fuel effecient first generation jetliner...the engines were civilian versions of the GE J79 (with a fan at the rear of the engine).

Although I suspect a Concorde at full afterburner would take the cake for the most noisy airliner of them all  Smile

I'm sure some Soviet types would be near the top as well, too.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
Viscount724
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:34 am

I always considered some smaller types, notably the BAC 1-11 and H.S. Trident powered by the notoriously loud R-R Spey, to be noiser than any DC-8. I don't have any noise data for the various models, but I also considered the early turbojet 707s and DC-8s to be louder than the later turbofan models, including the DC-8-63.
 
sdf880
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:05 am

The Caravelle SE-210 with the RR engines converted kerosene to noise with the best of them!

SDF880
 
Max Q
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:25 am

Sorry but, amongst western, subsonic airliners I believe the VC10 has that honour, if you ever stood behind, or close one on take off you would be quite amazed, it makes your organs vibrate !

I used to love watching them take off from the old Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong, the earth moved when they started their roll !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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RussianJet
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:44 am

How about the IL-86, TU-134, IL-62 or IL-76 for example?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Max Q
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:54 am

That's why I said 'Western subsonic airliners'
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sovietjet
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:04 am

Tu-104 and Tu-134 are loud. Il-86 creates some thunder too.
 
RussianJet
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:25 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 6):
That's why I said 'Western subsonic airliners'

Sure, but it doesn't in the originating post, does it? Or am I missing something?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
BAE146QT
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:38 pm



Quoting Timz (Reply 1):
And all the other turbojet airliners, including Concorde.

^ This, indeed. At takeoff power it sounded like someone ripping in half the largest piece of denim in the world.

What about the BAC Trident? Especially the model withe the additional angine in the tail..
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Max Q
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:02 am

Just looking at some take off noise levels for the VC10 in RAF service, the highest one I saw was 116.6 decibels.

That is not quiet...
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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Tarantine
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:55 am

Hello, Actually I should have made my question a little clearer. Why is the DC-8-63 supposedly noisier than a DC-8-61, DC-8-62, DC-8-50 or the 707-320 series. All of these aircraft had the same JT3D-3 powerplants. I know that most DC-8-63 was equipped with the JT3D-7s but surely they were not any noisier than the JT3D-3s were. I will agree that the DC-8-63 is much quieter than the turbojet powered CV-880 or the JT3C & JT4A powered 707s or DC-8s. Never got to see or hear any of the other classic European classic jetliners though  Sad
 
KU747
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:02 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
notably the BAC 1-11 and H.S. Trident powered by the notoriously loud R-R Spey,

I totally agree. I think the BAC1-11 is very noisy.
707,727,73all,741,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,77all,300,310,319,320,321,332,333,343,346, L10,L15,DC10,MD11,SSC,VC10
 
ovrpowrd727
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:43 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 6):
How about the IL-86, TU-134, IL-62 or IL-76 for example?

i agree, some of the russian types are usually not included in the rankings for whatever reason. the loudest jets from the west definitely go Concorde by a mile then the subsonics like the 880s and Dc8s and 707s. the others that are loud too might be the VC-10 and the Tupelov 154 as well. most of the russian jets aren't even allowed in the U.S. becuase they dont follow the noise regs
 
isitsafenow
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:49 pm



Quoting SDF880 (Reply 4):

That one gets my vote...and I have been around to hear em all, except the russian birds.
The VC-10 was a buzz to hear on take-off too.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
access-air
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:49 pm

I have also read that the DC8-63 was not only the noisiest of the subsonic jets of the time but also the most airfield demanding, fully loaded needing nearly 11,000 feet of runway. However I have see some videos where the DC8-63 gets off the ground in a short distance. The airfield claim could also be, because the DC8 is NOT equipped with leading edge slats on the wings, hence the "dive bomber" approach on landing.
I would loved to have heard first hand for myself what the earlier jetliners sounded like.
Watching some of the videos really doesnt give you the actual feel for it.
Ive heard Concorde up close and personal and that was loud.
My favourite sound from any jet is the crackle that you hear in the exhaust.
I have also heard first hand, an UN-Hushkitted BAC One Eleven take off....Yes, the Spey does create quite a racket. To be specific, Massive rush of air, thunderous rumble, horrendous crackling and lots of thick black smoke!! I loved it and would love to hear it all again!!!!

I know that technology must make its strides in aviation, but the whimpy sound that todays airliners make, make me wants to puke. Even on some of the newer engines you can hear the fan noise like on the A340-300...now thats cool, but even some of that is hushed to much a fart is louder than whats flying.....Pitiful!!!!!!!

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
ex52tech
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:58 am



Quoting Access-Air (Reply 16):
I have also heard first hand, an UN-Hushkitted BAC One Eleven take off....Yes, the Spey does create quite a racket. To be specific, Massive rush of air, thunderous rumble, horrendous crackling and lots of thick black smoke!! I loved it and would love to hear it all again!!!!

Then you have been close to the early water injected turbojets, especially in water. Just imagine more smoke, more crackling, and much louder. I know that we are talking airliners here, but I still think that the KC-135A sets the bar for noise. Those JT3Cs (J-57-59Ws) did not even have the stove pipe suppressor that the civilian versions had.
I'm just thankful that the USAF placed me in the engine shop, and I had the privilege of being one of the guys that made those engines make that noise and smoke. I regret not taking more pictures.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 16):
I have also read that the DC8-63 was not only the noisiest of the subsonic jets of the time but also the most airfield demanding, fully loaded needing nearly 11,000 feet of runway.

The long takeoff roll was probably the reason.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:10 am



Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 17):
the KC-135A sets the bar for noise

 checkmark  I completely agree!

Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 17):
The long takeoff roll was probably the reason.

 checkmark  Especially at MGTOW (-63).
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
access-air
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:29 pm

I dunno, I just expect that a jet should be loud.....
Id make the trip down to Moline in the 80s and I would get all excited expecting to hear the loud DC9s of Ozark and 727s or 737s of United. It was great. I tape recorded many of them.
I even tape recorded that BAC One Eleven that I spoke about previously.
I remember the first time I had the opportunity to hear a DC8-63 Stage 2 Hushkitted....I was very disappointed...At the time, the 727-200s were louder UN-hushed than the BAX DC8-63 that I watched takeoff in LAX back in 1993.
I think that a lot of the Hushing of the JT3D comes from quieting that screamin/whistle that is kind of still audible to some degree on the DC8-50/60 series and the Fanned 707s.
Im wondering if John Travolta's 707 is hushkitted...It doesnt appear to be.

Yes, In some respects I wish I had been taken to OHare in the mid 70s to see the older 4 engined jets....I would have loved them.

One of the things that I find kinda of strange now, is that I am so used to seeing twin jets like 737s A320s 757s 767 777s A330s in pictures, that when I see a picture of a 707 or a shorty DC8 or the Convair 880 or 990, they look so awkward with all that power hanging on the wings.

I even find that I have a hard time wrapping my mind around an L1011 or DC10 with the center engine anymore.... Have I been brainwashed by the Twin Mania???

Access-Air
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Scooter01
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:17 pm



Quoting Access-Air (Reply 19):
I even find that I have a hard time wrapping my mind around an L1011 or DC10 with the center engine anymore.... Have I been brainwashed by the Twin Mania???

No -unfortunately you were born 20 years late....

Scooter01  biggrin 
There is always a good reason to watch airplanes
 
access-air
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:20 pm

Scooter, I was born in 1966....I just never made it to OHare to actually watch planes until 1983......

Access-Air...
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
daviation
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:12 pm

The DC-8-63 may have been noisy, but in my opinion, it was the most beautiful commercial aircraft ever produced. I was in passenger in the -63 several times in the early 1970s, and yes, it took a lot of runway to get airborne. One flight was only to the Bahamas, and that was long, but the takeoff from JFK to Las Palmas -- well, I thought we'd run out of pavement.

I flew the BAC-111 on Allegheny when I was in college. We used to joke that you could either fly or take Allegheny (the joke being that American was only other choice, and that Allegheny was taking a leap of faith). The BAC-111 didn't inspire a lot of confidence in us.

I just saw Travolta's 707 at Stewart (SWF) on November 15th. I took a picture of it from the tarmac, but I didn't think to look for hushkits. I know he was making a film in the Hudson Valley several months ago, so I was surprised to see the plane back at SWF in November.
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ex52tech
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:27 pm



Quoting Daviation (Reply 22):
I was in passenger in the -63 several times in the early 1970s, and yes, it took a lot of runway to get airborne. One flight was only to the Bahamas, and that was long, but the takeoff from JFK to Las Palmas -- well, I thought we'd run out of pavement.

I flew out of GFAFB (El Forko Grande) on one of the only hot humid days, in a KC-135A at MTOW. The takeoff roll was soooooo looong that I thought we were going to run out of water (120 seconds) before we got airborne. I think we used the curb on the north hammer head to bounce the aircraft into the air. That one made me nervous.
Those J-57s in water made so much racket that I thought we were going to the moon, but one glance out the window at the progress we were making was sobering.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
Tarantine
Topic Author
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:59 pm



Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 23):
I flew out of GFAFB (El Forko Grande) on one of the only hot humid days, in a KC-135A at MTOW. The takeoff roll was soooooo looong that I thought we were going to run out of water (120 seconds) before we got airborne. I think we used the curb on the north hammer head to bounce the aircraft into the air. That one made me nervous.
Those J-57s in water made so much racket that I thought we were going to the moon, but one glance out the window at the progress we were making was sobering.

I have always wondered how much louder a B-52G was over the KC-135A considering it had twice as many "steam jets".
 
dc863
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:22 pm

Actually when it comes to the Super 60 series -8s, the -61 was supposed to be much louder on approach, sideline, and takeoff decibel levels than it's sister ships the -62, and -63.
 
ex52tech
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:39 am



Quoting Tarantine (Reply 24):
I have always wondered how much louder a B-52G was over the KC-135A considering it had twice as many "steam jets".

The J57s on the BUFF were only rated at 11,200lb thrust, in water, and the J57s on the KC-135A were rated at 13,500 in water. I am not saying the KC-135 was louder, it was just more annoying.

The B52G was loud, make no mistake, but it was more of a lower roar, not as much snapping and crackling as the KC-135 would deliver. The B-52G would leave this black smoke trail behind that would make today's environmentalist faint, and hopefully land on their head.
As they climbed out and the water would drop out, the airplane would sink down into its own smoke trail, and momentarily disappear. A MITO takeoff (three or more 15 seconds apart) was impressive.

During an engine run on a BUFF if you put the outboard pods into water, the engines would just lurch, and jump around as the front of the engines would torque the pod skyward, and the black smoke would blast out the tailpipes. The wing tips would lift about three feet or more just from those engines torquing forward and up, it was impressive. The engines would leave black soot marks on the ramp behind the airplane.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
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DocLightning
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:30 am

What about the Convairs? Weren't they real ear-splitters, too?
-Doc Lightning-

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ImperialEagle
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:23 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
What about the Convairs

Oh yeah, Doc, the 880's were very loud and had a sound all their own. But, nothing quite compares to a -135A.

Quoting Dc863 (Reply 25):
the -61 was supposed to be much louder on approach, sideline, and takeoff decibel levels than it's sister ships the -62, and -63.

I think one of the things not mentioned is that perhaps all of the different models were tested with the 18,000 lb engines rather than the available 19,000 lb variants on the -62's or -63's.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:15 am

I hope you're lookling for takeoff noise.

According to the FAA AC 36, the noisiest commercial jet that is unclassified are:

Convair 880 22M, which had 4 CJ-805-3B engines. Takeoff 117.0 dB
Boeing 707-400, which has 4 R.CO MK 508 engines. Takeoff 114.0 dB
Boeing 707-100, which had 4 JT3C-4 engines. Takeoff 113.0 dB
Boeing 707-300, which had 4 JT3C-3B engines. Takeoff 113.0 dB

Under the classified aircraft (Stage 2 or better). Some of the below may have hush kits, so not sure what the original configuration produced:

Boeing 747-200, JT9d 3A 110.0
Boeing 747-100 JT9D 3A 109.4 dB
Boeing 707-300B 104.7 dB


The loudest DC8-63 produced 104.8, but with a hush kit.
 
ex52tech
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:22 pm



Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 29):

Convair 880 22M, which had 4 CJ-805-3B engines. Takeoff 117.0 dB

Regrettably, I haven't had the opportunity to see or hear an 880 or 990 takeoff. Too bad someone couldn't get one of those back in the air.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
KELPkid
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:57 pm



Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 30):
Regrettably, I haven't had the opportunity to see or hear an 880 or 990 takeoff. Too bad someone couldn't get one of those back in the air.

The last airworthy CV-990A is sitting at ELP. The tower museum at HOU tried to buy her, but hit a snag at the last minute when it was just about impossible to ferry her out...they couldn't get insurance to do it (and I hear, through the grapevine, that the ICAO deleting the CV-990 type from the list of recognized aircraft types didn't help matters much. They basically would have had to have flown her out on an experimental certificate, despite the fact that she was a previously certified type...)  Sad

Here's a picture of her:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Christian Hauser



She nearly got cut up, too, over unpaid parking fees by her owners and money owed to the El Paso International airport...I think some scrappers actually bought her at auction, but then something happened....

Sorry to go so far off topic here, but I have a personal interest in seeing the last airworthy CV-990A saved (which happens to be stored at my hometown's airport...).
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
timz
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:48 pm



Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 29):
According to the FAA AC 36

Those are the pndb measured at ground level 6.5 km (?) from the start of takeoff roll, with the aircraft at MTOW on a standard day?
 
ex52tech
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:53 am



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 31):
The last airworthy CV-990A is sitting at ELP. The tower museum at HOU tried to buy her, but hit a snag at the last minute when it was just about impossible to ferry her out...they couldn't get insurance to do it (and I hear, through the grapevine, that the ICAO deleting the CV-990 type from the list of recognized aircraft types didn't help matters much.

I didn't know there was one out there in such good shape. They just can't cut her up, she belongs in a museum, or better yet out flying on the airshow circuit.

Off topic or not, thanks for the info.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
SB
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:12 am

The VC10 is a sound to behold. One can hear them for miles - I live 4nm from Brize Norton (EGVN) but have no trouble hearing them departing if the wind is blowing the right way.

S.
"Confirm leave the hold and maintain 320kts?!"
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: DC-8-63 Noisiest Airliner?

Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:37 am

There was a British Air Force VC10 in SAN over Thanksgiving. It took off the day after Thanksgiving. It was very loud and could be hear for almost ten minutes as it went over the ocean, turned south, then east. It was on a thread I started in Civil Aviation and some have added photos.

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