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Dr.DTW
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Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:37 am

A parallel takeoff at SFO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cId1lDPJK0Y&feature=related

How often does this happen ?
 
pilotboi
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:41 am

Probably 1000 times a day all over the world.
 
DashTrash
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:41 am

Yeah, it's safe. RNAV departures. Notice how one airplane turns one direction, the other goes the other way, pretty much at the same time.

Both airplanes will drift at the same rate in the same direction with any wind until the turns are started.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:42 am

>>>Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Yes.

>>>How often does this happen ?

Hundreds of times a day...

Normal departures of 01L and 01R involve diverging heading once airborne..
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Mir
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:43 am



Quoting Dr.DTW (Thread starter):
How often does this happen ?

All the time, when the weather is good enough.

If you notice, the airplane that the camera is on (off of 1R) turns right, and the other airplane (off of 1L) turns left, so there's no collision hazard. And, of course, ATC advises the pilots of both aircraft that they're going to be taking off simultaneously.

It's safe, and it's expeditious.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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lindy field
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:44 am

Sometimes the departures are even more closely synchronized than in this video. Here's a photo I took a few weeks ago of a pair of WN 737s.
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:48 am

It's a pretty cool occurrence to watch, especially when they look like this:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k170/swfshots/paralelltakeoffsfo.jpg
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doug_or
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:58 am



Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
Yeah, it's safe. RNAV departures. Notice how one airplane turns one direction, the other goes the other way, pretty much at the same time.

I don't think the have any (or at least many RNAV departures in SFO). Our usuals (REBAS3 PORTE3, and SFO8) certainly aren't. 1L usually turns to 350 and 1R usually turns to 030. Its simple but it works.
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Mir
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:01 am



Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
RNAV departures.

Not even that. It's just assigned headings.

-Mir
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Acey
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:16 am

I love how the 319 powers away in that vid. Beautiful.
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modesto2
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:26 am



Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 7):
I don't think the have any (or at least many RNAV departures in SFO). Our usuals (REBAS3 PORTE3, and SFO8) certainly aren't. 1L usually turns to 350 and 1R usually turns to 030. Its simple but it works.

Correct. SFO does not have RNAV departures. These simultaneous departures from 1L/R occur on a daily basis. Many of the 1L departures are southbound on the PORTE3 departure which instructs pilots to intercept the SFO 350 radial - this involves a left turn from the departure runway heading of 013. Lots of the 1R departures are filed on the SFO8 departure which is a right turn 030 upon departure. In such a situation, both aircraft initiate these diverging headings shortly after take-off so conflicts are avoided. SFO is an enthusiast's dream with awesome parallel departures and arrivals  Smile
 
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TripleDelta
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:47 am



Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
Yeah, it's safe. RNAV departures. Notice how one airplane turns one direction, the other goes the other way, pretty much at the same time.

They don't have to be, as Mir said. The requisites for independent IFR parallel runway departures are:

- the runways (or rather their centerlines) must be separated by 760 m or more
- the paths of the two aircraft must diverge by at least 15 degrees immediately after takeoff
- the airport must be equipped with a suitable surveillance radar capable of identifying the aircraft within 1 NM of the runway
- suitable ATS (Air Traffic Services) procedures that ensure the divergence between two aircraft is achieved

If the airport has all of these satisfied, parallel departures can - and are - done without problems.
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Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
Mir
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:52 am



Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 11):
the runways (or rather their centerlines) must be separated by 760 m or more

At SFO, this isn't the case - they're separated by about 230m (750 feet). I believe the airport has a waiver that lets them do the parallel departures as long as the weather is above certain minimums. Should it become foggy, they'd have to revert to one runway.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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TripleDelta
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:42 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
At SFO, this isn't the case - they're separated by about 230m (750 feet). I believe the airport has a waiver that lets them do the parallel departures as long as the weather is above certain minimums. Should it become foggy, they'd have to revert to one runway.

Interesting, didn't know that. Are the minimums round about those for IMC, or greater?
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Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
bahadir
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:41 am

I used to do this all the time this past summer off of 15L and 15R in IAH. Most of the time the ATC would sequence them such that you will have some lateral separation between two airplanes but sometimes it becomes parallel.

Notice another point that was not raised by any other poster too: both airplanes are Airbus narrow body aircraft. (320 and 320 I believe). This would have been a different type of departure if this was 757/767 and A320 because of wake turbulence concerns.
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RussianJet
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:12 am

I have trouble understanding why anyone would think this wasn't a perfectly safe and normal practice, and in what way it could potentially be dangerous.
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Qatara340
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:55 am



Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 11):
- the runways (or rather their centerlines) must be separated by 760 m or more
- the paths of the two aircraft must diverge by at least 15 degrees immediately after takeoff
- the airport must be equipped with a suitable surveillance radar capable of identifying the aircraft within 1 NM of the runway
- suitable ATS (Air Traffic Services) procedures that ensure the divergence between two aircraft is achieved

The runways should have a minmium clear distance of of 2000 meters for there to be a safe parallel take-off or landing. 760 m is too close.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:16 pm

Yes, parallel departures are very safe.

Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 2):
Probably 1000 times a day all over the world.

The number is probably quite a bit higher than you'd think.

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 14):
I used to do this all the time this past summer off of 15L and 15R in IAH. Most of the time the ATC would sequence them such that you will have some lateral separation between two airplanes but sometimes it becomes parallel.

 checkmark  It is done every day at IAH when using 15's/33's for departure as long as the tower can see the aircraft start the turn to establish the 15 degree divergence for RADAR separation purposes. Even at 1,000' between centerlines being in one of the aircraft the sight is awesome with the other airplane just off your wing.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
RNAV departures.

As noted by others no RNAV's out of SFO however, RNAV departures do no necessarily make it "safe" when the RNAV SID is runway specific and the crew loads it incorrectly or doesn't make the runway change in the FMC when ground control moves them to the parallel runway.

ATL and DFW runways are separated by a huge amount of real estate compared to SFO and they had some nice fun crossovers going on with the RNAV's. The ole vector still works quite well for the most part to get the initial course divergence.
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Aaron747
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:21 pm

It's probably a much better question to ask whether or not this is safe:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d03G_Mi8TrU
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Goldenshield
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:07 pm

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 13):
Interesting, didn't know that. Are the minimums round about those for IMC, or greater?

Minimums required for the LDA/DME, which is a non-precision approach used in conjunction with the ILS for simultanious off-set instrument approaches (SOIA,) are 1200-4, with 1800 required at the bridge (BRIJJ.) However, they won't even allow simultanious approaches unless the mins are 2100-4, which kind of defeats the purpose of having the lower minimums.

[Edited 2009-01-03 09:39:22]
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Mir
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:33 pm



Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 16):
The runways should have a minmium clear distance of of 2000 meters for there to be a safe parallel take-off or landing.

That's more than a mile separation between runways - quite a big buffer. Needlessly big, IMO - hell, you can do parallel approaches in IMC with runways that are only 4,300 feet apart (about 1300m).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
SPREE34
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:32 pm

Several trillion times safer than parallel on any given expressway.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:53 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
It's probably a much better question to ask whether or not this is safe:

It is safe. If you look both aircraft are on either side of the center line and the wing tips are not overlapped. The pilots would have (or at least should have) talked about this before the flight and discussed what happens if this or that happens. I have done this many times with friends of mind, and have even done circuits for around an hour in YYF. As long as the aircraft are similarly matched, it can be quite safe.
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Longhornmaniac
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:02 pm



Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 16):

The runways should have a minmium clear distance of of 2000 meters for there to be a safe parallel take-off or landing. 760 m is too close.

Are you serious?! That's more than a mile. Completely unnecessary. So basically airports like DFW, LAX, LHR, ORD, or ATL should all only allow one takeoff or landing at a time? All of the aforementioned airports, except for LHR, have at least 4 runways operating closer than 2000m. Do you enjoy delays? For that matter, why should any airport have more than one runway? I mean really, do you realize what kind of congestion that would cause if simultaneous ops were restricted to a distance of 2000m? Thousands upon thousands of flights operate day after day in complete safety with these sorts of conditions.

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stratosphere
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:02 pm

Well it could be dangerous if the two aircraft departing have flight numbers that can be easily transposed like this incident in MEM.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...feb/28/faa-probes-fedex-near-miss/
 
P3Orion
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:14 pm



Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 16):
The runways should have a minmium clear distance of of 2000 meters for there to be a safe parallel take-off or landing. 760 m is too close.

I completely disagree. In the Navy at NHZ the centerlines are 700 feet apart and we ran the touch 'n go pattern to the inboard and the IFR traffic was assigned the outboard. Completely safe, completely efficient. I'm just a controller so what do I know.
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timz
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:21 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 17):
Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 2):
Probably 1000 times a day all over the world.

The number is probably quite a bit higher than you'd think.

As you know, airports that have closely parallel runways almost always plan airline departures on one and arrivals on the other. Simultaneous arrivals or simultaneous departures might happen once in a while, but not dozens of times a day, as at SFO (and maybe IAH for all I know).

Can anyone think of another airport with runways separated by 750 feet that regularly does simultaneous jet airliner departures from the two runways? Anybody found a pic on A.net from someplace other than SFO?
 
AC320tech
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:38 pm



Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 16):
The runways should have a minmium clear distance of of 2000 meters for there to be a safe parallel take-off or landing. 760 m is too close.

I'm going to point out the obvious, but your saying you want a 2 kilometer distance between the runways? You realize 2000 meters is 2 kilometers, which is HUGE separation (and at that amount of separation, any alarm of parallel departures/arrivals would be unnecessary) That is a lot of distance between runways, and in that regard, 760 meters is a lot. Obviously it is a safe distance if it continues to happen without incident.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:48 am



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 21):
Several trillion times safer than parallel on any given expressway.

Bingo!
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DashTrash
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:10 am



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 17):
As noted by others no RNAV's out of SFO however, RNAV departures do no necessarily make it "safe" when the RNAV SID is runway specific and the crew loads it incorrectly or doesn't make the runway change in the FMC when ground control moves them to the parallel runway.

True enough. Forgot about SFO not having the RNAV stuff. Our box has most of that stuff loaded in as though it was an RNAV SID.

Easy way to prevent problems on runway specific departures. Don't load the damn box wrong and verify the runway loaded is the one you're actually on! (not like I've ever made that mistake before.... Big grin)
 
BE77
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:34 pm

If you want to talk about parallel runways with multiple simultaneous operations, you just have to include Oshkosh.

http://www.airventure.org/atc/
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Stitch
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:57 pm

Coming in to SFO on a UA 744, we touched down just before an NH 777 started her take-off run on the parallel so as we decelerated, she came roaring past and lifted off.

That was powerfully cool.  biggrin 
 
B727-200
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RE: Parallel Takeoff, Is This Safe?

Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:31 am

I experienced a parallel takeoff at Charles de Gaulle - I was in a UA B777 with a Swiss A320 departing at the same time. I can't recall what runways we were departing from respectively but we were either side of the terminals, so very little if any risk I would have thought. With no airports with infrastructure like this in Australia (YSSY's parallel runways are quite displaced) it was an unusual sight to see another aircraft airborn and climbing out at the same time.

To add a further question to the thread, would it be more dangerous staggering the takeoffs if the upwind aircraft departs first? To elaborate, would there be a risk of wake turbulence drifting accross the parallel runway if there is a slight cross wind?

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