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DIJKKIJK
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Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:08 am

Are airplanes ever fitted with snow tyres to deal with situations like the ones shown in the pictures below? Are any anti-skid devices applied for taxiing on ice?


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Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team




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Photo © Yuda



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wilco737
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:40 am



Quoting DIJKKIJK (Thread starter):
Are airplanes ever fitted with snow tyres to deal with situations like the ones shown in the pictures below? Are any anti-skid devices applied for taxiing on ice?

I've never had any winter tyres on any of my airplanes.

Anti skid is always available for airplanes as the brakes are very powerful and without anti skid the tyres will be blocked so often, especially on wet runways and we would need new tyres way too often. If the anti skid system is not working, then landing and taking off in wet or contaminated conditions is not allowed and on dry runway the landing distance is significantly increased.

But the idea of winter tyres is maybe not the worst.

wilco737
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buckfifty
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:50 am

It'll be hard to put more tread on airplane tires, because the friction generated from landing on anything but snow/ice will greatly increase the heat produced, and thus causing possible blowouts. And not to mention the tread blocks coming off causing damage to the aircraft.

To strengthen the tire for such an application will add weight and cost also. I just don't think it's going to be feasible.
 
Okie
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:25 pm

I usually install " prop chains " the first sign of cold weather. Big grin  Big grin

Okie
 
don81603
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:03 pm

In a somewhat related question, I heard someplace that on a snowy or icy runway, the pilot will hit hard and bounce the a/c into the air before settling down in an effort to get the wheels spinning before landing to reduce the risk of skidding when landing on stopped tires. Is this true, or did I hear it wrong?
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buckfifty
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:31 pm



Quoting Don81603 (Reply 4):
In a somewhat related question, I heard someplace that on a snowy or icy runway, the pilot will hit hard and bounce the a/c into the air before settling down in an effort to get the wheels spinning before landing to reduce the risk of skidding when landing on stopped tires. Is this true, or did I hear it wrong?

Absolutely not true. You want to settle the aircraft on the ground as soon as possible for maximum braking effect, to minimize the landing distance. No one ever bounces the aircraft intentionally, that is suicide (well, not so dramatic, but an obvious no-no).
 
FredT
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:34 pm



Quoting Don81603 (Reply 4):
I heard someplace that on a snowy or icy runway, the pilot will hit hard and bounce the a/c into the air before settling down in an effort to get the wheels spinning before landing

When there's standing water on the runway, one way of reducing the risk of aquaplaning is to plant it firmly, in order to get the tyres spinning rather than just skimming on top of the water. Perhaps that's where the confusion comes from. On snow, they'll get spinning no matter how firm the touch down. I don't think you could gain anything by having them spin up marginally faster when putting it down firmly.
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flexo
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm



Quoting Don81603 (Reply 4):
In a somewhat related question, I heard someplace that on a snowy or icy runway, the pilot will hit hard and bounce the a/c into the air before settling down in an effort to get the wheels spinning before landing to reduce the risk of skidding when landing on stopped tires. Is this true, or did I hear it wrong?

Right after touchdown you still have enough speed for the control surfaces to be useful so you could counter possible sideway skidding with the rudder.
 
jetstar
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:50 am

When I was in the Air Force working on K/C-97’s, they had small metal slivers embedded in the main gear tires for better braking. I don't know if they had anti skid systems installed, my gut feeling is they did not.

You could not press hard with your hands on the tires with all these metal shards sticking out or your hand would have lots of little puncture marks on it.

I have never seen these type of tires on any civilian airplanes.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:17 am



Quoting Okie (Reply 3):
I usually install " prop chains " the first sign of cold weather.

Or if the snow is deep enough, try skis.  Smile

http://www.sethwhite.org/images/airfields/sea%20ice%20runway/c130%20on%20skis.jpg



http://summit.unh.edu/TO_skis.jpg
 
dl757md
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:58 am



Quoting DIJKKIJK (Thread starter):
Are any anti-skid devices applied for taxiing on ice?



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 1):
Anti skid is always available for airplanes as the brakes are very powerful

Not sure about all airplanes with anti-skid, but most of the ones I've worked the anti-skid is inhibited below a certain speed....usually between 15 and 20 knots. So during most taxiing anti-skid is not available.

DL757Md
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wilco737
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:10 am



Quoting Dl757md (Reply 10):
Not sure about all airplanes with anti-skid, but most of the ones I've worked the anti-skid is inhibited below a certain speed....usually between 15 and 20 knots. So during most taxiing anti-skid is not available.

Correct, during taxi speed the anti skid is not working. But all modern airliners have anti- skid and it is a very helpful thing.

wilco737
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Okie
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:12 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Or if the snow is deep enough, try skis.

There went the anti-skid.*


Somehow I envision a 130 doing some donuts on a giant expanse of snow somewhere remote away from base.*  Wow! Big grin

Okie
 
louA340
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:52 am

I have a question regarding the control of an aircraft in the situation where the wheels do skid or slide due to snow and ice.
Can the pilots actually regain control of the aircraft to keep in on the runway or at that point there is no return?
I'm thinking in comparison to how you would regain control of a regular motor vehicle.
 
2H4
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:25 pm

Quoting Jetstar (Reply 8):
When I was in the Air Force working on K/C-97’s, they had small metal slivers embedded in the main gear tires for better braking. I don't know if they had anti skid systems installed, my gut feeling is they did not.

You could not press hard with your hands on the tires with all these metal shards sticking out or your hand would have lots of little puncture marks on it.

I have never seen these type of tires on any civilian airplanes.

Wow, interesting. Is there a term for such tires? Any record of them having been used on other aircraft types?
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tdscanuck
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:29 pm

Quoting louA340 (Reply 13):

I have a question regarding the control of an aircraft in the situation where the wheels do skid or slide due to snow and ice.
Can the pilots actually regain control of the aircraft to keep in on the runway or at that point there is no return?

If the skid/slide is fore/aft, antiskid will protect the main gear. The nosewheel doesn't have brakes so it can't get into a fore/aft skid.

A lateral skid is more problematic...you can regain spin on the nosewheel by turning it into the skid (the type of guidance you get on motor vehicles) but that's not going to help you stay on the runway. If the mains start going sideways I think you're basically going to have to ride it out.

Tom.
 
jetstar
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:29 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 14):
Quoting Jetstar (Reply 8):
When I was in the Air Force working on K/C-97’s, they had small metal slivers embedded in the main gear tires for better braking. I don't know if they had anti skid systems installed, my gut feeling is they did not.

You could not press hard with your hands on the tires with all these metal shards sticking out or your hand would have lots of little puncture marks on it.

I have never seen these type of tires on any civilian airplanes.

Wow, interesting. Is there a term for such tires? Any record of them having been used on other aircraft types?


2H4

I don’t remember if there was any special name for these tires, but I was an engine mechanic so I very rarely had anything to do with the airframe.

I do know they used these type tires all year, not just in the winter and they were recapped, so probably that is when the metal was impregnated onto the tires, during the recapping process.

I have absolutely no idea if they were used on any other airplanes, I never saw them used on any corporate jets or general aviation airplanes.

JetStar
 
KELPkid
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:33 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 14):
Wow, interesting. Is there a term for such tires? Any record of them having been used on other aircraft types?

SR-71 tires were grey in color because the rubber they were made with was impregnated with aluminum. This was done for some heat-related purpose that skips my mind at the moment. Here's a great picture for showing that feature:


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Photo © Mike Freer - Touchdown-aviation



However, I don't think it was actual shards of aluminum like it was in the KC-97 example  
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tb727
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:50 pm

Quoting louA340 (Reply 13):
I have a question regarding the control of an aircraft in the situation where the wheels do skid or slide due to snow and ice.
Can the pilots actually regain control of the aircraft to keep in on the runway or at that point there is no return?
I'm thinking in comparison to how you would regain control of a regular motor vehicle.

It's actually not too hard to taxi an airplane when it's slippery, you just have to take your time and remember you always have thrust with the engines turning. I was however going pretty slow in an FA20 at DTW and got onto a glazed over part of a taxiway during a turn and slid sideways about 20 yards before we caught, nothing I did with the tiller mattered though, we just had to come to a stop on our own.

As far as control when you are taking off or landing, you just rudder through it. If you are going too fast, turning the tiller isn't going to do anything but scrub the nose tires. Landing you have to be pressing on the brakes at the same time, it takes some getting used to if you have to move the pedals a lot and keep pressure on the brakes. Boeing has an excellent anti-skid system as I am sure most large transports do. Dassault, not so much!

One of the strangest sensations I had was taking off on a slippery, snow covered runway at RFD in a 727. Normally with a strong crosswind you have to push the nose into the wind on takeoff. During the takeoff roll the wind started pushing on that big tail way back there and I had to push the rudder with the wind to keep it straight. I had done it before in smaller planes but this really got my attention and I thought it was pretty cool.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:23 pm

Quoting louA340 (Reply 13):
I have a question regarding the control of an aircraft in the situation where the wheels do skid or slide due to snow and ice.
Can the pilots actually regain control of the aircraft to keep in on the runway or at that point there is no return?
I'm thinking in comparison to how you would regain control of a regular motor vehicle.

Aircraft don't use the wheels to exert force on the runway in order to move, so it is very different from a car. Certainly the nose gear (and sometimes the body gear) is used to steer, but the equation is very different.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
474218
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:41 am

Quoting Don81603 (Reply 4):
in an effort to get the wheels spinning before landing to reduce the risk of skidding


If you ever raced motorcycles (motocross or desert) you would have learned: When you are going over a jump you want the front wheel stopped (not turning) when it contacts the ground. A spinning front wheel has a tendency to wash out while a stopped wheel allows for better control.

The hard part about that is, grabbing the front brake while your flying through the air!
 
Geezer
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:08 pm

This is a fascinating discussion! Having said that.........one thing I have long thought about, relating to stopping aircraft on slippery conditions is......

Anyone ever witness the Blue Angel's "Fat Albert" C-130 do a JATO takeoff ? I'm thinking, "reaction"....
Obviously, JATO would probably never be practical for commercial planes, ( they have to keep costs down and make a profit, right? ), but for the military...........why not employ those JATO "bottles" FORWARD, rather than rearward ?

Anything that make a C-130 jump into the air like a F-22A, or a F-15, obviously has a LOT of "reaction" ! Why not use it to get stopped, or at least, to avoid an impending over-run !
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
WrenchBender
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:16 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 21):
why not employ those JATO "bottles" FORWARD, rather than rearward ?

It was tried once (for the planned hostage rescue from the US embassy in Iran), they were inadvertantly fired in flight and the a/c was a wright off there is a you tube out there somewhere of the crash.


WrenchBender
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2H4
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:16 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 21):
why not employ those JATO "bottles" FORWARD, rather than rearward ?

It's been attempted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDlyk9E67_A
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Starlionblue
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:48 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 21):
Anything that make a C-130 jump into the air like a F-22A, or a F-15, obviously has a LOT of "reaction" ! Why not use it to get stopped, or at least, to avoid an impending over-run !

Extra cost and extra weight, which in turn means more extra cost. All for very very limited benefit.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Snow Tyres On Airplanes?

Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:41 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 21):
Obviously, JATO would probably never be practical for commercial planes, ( they have to keep costs down and make a profit, right? )

Mexicana thought otherwise back in the day...

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c81/aloges/JATO.jpg

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