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DescendVia
Topic Author
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:26 am

Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Sun May 10, 2009 3:59 am

I'm just curious about a flight I came across while I was just "sufin the web" tonight. It has nothing to do about why this flight operates nor does it involved its filed altitude. My question is how where they allowed to fly the route they filed.

Route:
SQC7334 H/B744/Q 0491 P0035 430
ORD..BDF.J181.BAYLI.J105.MLC.BYP5.DFW/0153

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3729/7334d.jpg

How were they allowed to do the ORD3 to BDF then the J181 to BAYLI? BDF is limited to flights filed at 23,000 and below as well as the J181 to BAYLI had them climbing right through the heart of the BDF5 arrival into ORD.



Now I'm not a dispatch expert by any means but looking through the CDR (Coded Departure Routes) the route they filed was not there. So as I know it the route does not fully comply with NRP (if they participate that is, but judging by older flights it looks like they do).

I wonder this as they were the only flight to file this route and UA99 went right before them and an AA flight right afterward the "normal" way.

Anyone got any insight?
Thanks!



[Edited 2009-05-09 21:15:17]
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Sun May 10, 2009 2:14 pm

Based on ONLY the information I see here, the routing was definately not correctly filed; however, it looks to me like they were vectored KORD DPA BDF, which, if filed that way is a perfectly LEGAL routing, because DPA is the departure fix, and not BDF. Chicago approach can be accommodating like this for those who do not normally fly those routes.

As far as your concern of the BDF5 arrival, going DPA BDF actually kept this departure west of the arrival stream. Also, he was passing FL300 20 miles from DPA, nearly 50 miles from BDF, and only 40 miles from ORD. He was well above the arrival stream at this point.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Sun May 10, 2009 7:37 pm



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 1):
Chicago approach can be accommodating like this for those who do not normally fly those routes.

I wonder if the aircraft having been a "heavy" had anything to do with it, i.e. put the heavy on an oddball route to not slow-up subsequent departures with increased miles-in-trail if all were using the same "normal" route?

UAL's ATC coordinator could probably answer the OP's question...
 
DescendVia
Topic Author
Posts: 141
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RE: Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Mon May 11, 2009 1:55 am



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 2):

That could be since they were about 3 hours late and it was easier to do this then mes up the conga train.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Mon May 11, 2009 3:55 am

If they're on long range nav (GPS) they don't have to "use" the navigation facility. In this case it just becomes a waypoint.
 
KELPkid
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Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Mon May 11, 2009 5:35 am

Forget that, how is it that Singapore Airlines Cargo is allowed to fly a domestic leg?  eyebrow  I suppose that if the flight is not a ferry, it cannot take any cargo boarded at ORD and drop off that cargo in DFW...because that would be sixth freedom, which the USA doesn't allow.
 
Goldenshield
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Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Mon May 11, 2009 6:07 am



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 4):
If they're on long range nav (GPS) they don't have to "use" the navigation facility. In this case it just becomes a waypoint.

The ORD3 Departure is a vector SID, and they are very strict about it. You have to file what is allowed by the SID, and ONLY what is on the SID, regardless of your navigational capability.
 
744rules
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RE: Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Mon May 11, 2009 6:08 am



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
Forget that, how is it that Singapore Airlines Cargo is allowed to fly a domestic leg? I suppose that if the flight is not a ferry, it cannot take any cargo boarded at ORD and drop off that cargo in DFW...because that would be sixth freedom, which the USA doesn't allow.

7334 originates BRU and carries cgo for both ORD and DFW
 
PhilSquares
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Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Mon May 11, 2009 6:10 am



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
Forget that, how is it that Singapore Airlines Cargo is allowed to fly a domestic leg?

While it is a domestic leg, who said anything about cargo being on loaded in ORD and off loaded in DFW? However, IIRC, SQC 7334 is routed ORD-DFW-AMS-JNB-NBO-SIN.
 
RyDawg82
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:30 am

RE: Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Wed May 13, 2009 3:37 am

One thing to consider here. Flight Aware shows the *filed* flight plan. Most likely when the flight plan came active with ATC, it would have been corrected with a Preferential Departure Routing (PDR) -- a routing that is considered valid and is preferred given a variety of circumstances. These amended routings will not update on Flight Aware.

It's not totally common, but every now and again you will see a Jet file a Prop SID or vice versa. When the flight plan is issued by ATC its corrected with a PDR.
 
DescendVia
Topic Author
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:26 am

RE: Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Sat May 16, 2009 1:51 am



Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 9):
Flight Aware shows the *filed* flight plan.

I'm not totally sure on that one........ I have seen PDC re-routes/amendments show up in the route box on flightaware.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Sat May 16, 2009 6:17 am



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10):
I'm not totally sure on that one........ I have seen PDC re-routes/amendments show up in the route box on flightaware.

I can concur. I checked a flight I had to refile a few days ago, and FA showed the flight plan after ATC amended it.
 
RyDawg82
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:30 am

RE: Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Mon May 18, 2009 3:49 am

Looking back through some flights that I have seen amended on the other end, I stand corrected...FlightAware does show the revised segments....Sorry for the confusion.

RP
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2844
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Question About SQC7334 ORD-DFW 09MAY09

Mon May 18, 2009 4:04 am



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 6):
The ORD3 Departure is a vector SID, and they are very strict about it. You have to file what is allowed by the SID, and ONLY what is on the SID, regardless of your navigational capability.

Regardless, the ORD3 only has the noise abatement altitudes (based off the ORD DME) and maintain 5000 (for loss of radio reception).

The south waypoints (EARND et al) have a 250kts until advised also.

BDF being operational or not has no effect on it being used if you're filed for GPS. It's there and the GPS can use it if the lat/long match up with the location of the navaid.

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