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mozart
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Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Mon May 18, 2009 10:25 am

Looking at maps I see that Russia only has very few VORs. Also I do know that some of the Russian-built (or Soviet-built for that matter) aircraft have methods and instruments for navigation that are not existent in "Western" aircraft.

Can anyone shed some light on this? Why so few VORs? Is the principle of flying along airways the same in Russia as in the "Western world"? What instruments and technologies exist in the Tupolevs and Ilyushins that are not existent elsewhere? Also: how do they deal with the very high latitudes up North, which make navigation by magnetic indicators more difficult or nonsensical?
 
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glen
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Mon May 18, 2009 2:58 pm

In earlier days they had very strong NDB's in Russia for navigation, which are for sure easier to maintain in some remote locations. (About russian-specific technologies I don't know.) With the GPS-technology of today, we don't need any radio nav-aids enroute and the principles for airway navigation are the same as in the rest of the world.
Airways at high latitudes are published with true track information instead of magnetic tracks. As the basic navigation information from GPS or IRS is true as well, it's no problem to navigate there with a modern aircraft.
 
A342
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Mon May 18, 2009 8:27 pm



Quoting Mozart (Thread starter):

IIRC the Russians have their own equivalent to VOR - RSBN. That's maybe why there are so few western VORs.

wikipedia article (German only, no English version available):

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSBN
 
DescendVia
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 3:50 am

NDBs are still the name of the game in Russia in my observation, one needs to only look at most airport procedures, but as was stated RNAV is starting to find its way into existence at Russian airports. For example DME has like 3 or 4 RNAV transitions to a few ILS approaches but other then that its just pages of NDB procedures, which is pretty much not a big issue anymore with FMS.

On the Airways side, they are pretty similar to the other B-RNAV airways of Europe. Though like China, pretty much any airspace off the airways is restricted.

Just a note though, the WGS-84 reference datum is not used in Russia, so RAW data is primary with the FMS as a backup when on traditional procedures.

[Edited 2009-05-18 21:05:48]
 
KELPkid
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 4:31 am



Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
wikipedia article (German only, no English version available):

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSBN

Dang, wish there was an English article on this one...  Sad I never even knew about this until today.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 6:08 am



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 3):
Just a note though, the WGS-84 reference datum is not used in Russia, so RAW data is primary with the FMS as a backup when on traditional procedures

WGS-84 is used in Russia. It is not used in China. Thus, you have to inhibit the GPS updating for the initial takeoff. If you don't you will get a runway disagree message.
 
Soku39
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 7:48 am

can someone compare their airspace to the US's A,B,C,D,E,G ?
 
DescendVia
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 2:40 pm



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 5):
WGS-84 is used in Russia

I just pulled up the ops page for DME and its says "WGS-84 equivalent, no."

Quoting Soku39 (Reply 6):
can someone compare their airspace to the US's A,B,C,D,E,G ?

I actually think they run something similar to ICAO type airspace with FIRs and the associated service from A-G for at least the higher altitudes.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 3:01 pm



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 7):


Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 5):
WGS-84 is used in Russia

I just pulled up the ops page for DME and its says "WGS-84 equivalent, no."

I have operated in and out of DME with GPS updating enabled and have no problems at all. On the other hand, PVG, XMN, NAN and PEK all require GPS updating to be disabled. Otherwise you will get a runway disagree message. It could be Jepp has the correct data while the locally produced DME date is incorrect.

However, not disabling the GPS updating into DME would indicate it is using WGS-84.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 3:15 pm



Quoting Mozart (Thread starter):
What instruments and technologies exist in the Tupolevs and Ilyushins that are not existent elsewhere?

Glass noses where a navigator, looking at the ground, gives steering orders up to the flight deck:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Igor Dvurekov



 Wink
 
DescendVia
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 5:24 pm



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 8):
However, not disabling the GPS updating into DME would indicate it is using WGS-84.

GPS and WGS-84 really don't mean anything together. All it means for us is that RAW data is primary for non-RNAV procedures with the FMC as a backup. It also means the 777 and 747s can't use VNAV for NPA or RNAV approaches with VNAV minimums published, we have to revert to vertical speed procedures. Plus there is nothing in our books about disabling GPS for the 777 and 747s, checking PEK and PVG ops pages as we speak.

The only thing I know of about GPS and WGS-84 is that we can't substitute the FMC (GPS planes only) for OTS navaids on engine out T-procedures.
 
A342
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 5:29 pm



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 9):
Quoting Mozart (Thread starter):
What instruments and technologies exist in the Tupolevs and Ilyushins that are not existent elsewhere?

Glass noses where a navigator, looking at the ground, gives steering orders up to the flight deck:

Apart from that, Russian aircraft also use navigation systems which calculate position using dead reckoning, with wind drift data supplied by a on-board doppler radar.

I've found an English-language website which describes both this system (called NAS-1) and the aforementioned RSBN:

http://samdimdesign.free.fr/

Click on the An-24 icon on the left, then go to "Documentation".
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 5:38 pm



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10):
GPS and WGS-84 really don't mean anything together.

I beg to differ. If you don't disable GPS updating when taking off on a non WGS-84 airport you will get, on the Boeings, a rynway disagree EICAS message. That is a BIG deal!

Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10):
It also means the 777 and 747s can't use VNAV for NPA or RNAV approaches with VNAV minimums published, we have to revert to vertical speed procedures.

Funny, we have no prohibition on using VNAV in a NPA anyplace in the world. As long as you have a glide slope figure in the approach you are legal. In addition we have no restrictions on LNAV in those areas.

Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10):
Plus there is nothing in our books about disabling GPS for the 777 and 747s, checking PEK and PVG ops pages as we speak

I can guarantee you will see a runway disagree message!
 
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glen
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 8:17 pm



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10):
GPS and WGS-84 really don't mean anything together.

Well it does for sure. The position from GPS is in WGS-84. If your flying in a non WGS-84 state the coordinates on maps and in the NAV-Database differ from those derived from the GPS.
According the information we have, Russia as well as China are Non-WGS84 states. However we have to deselect GPS only for approach and in terminal area when actual position can not continuously be checked against displayed navigation aids. Which is normaly not the case on the airports mentioned above.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 12):
I can guarantee you will see a runway disagree message!

We do not receive any warning message - but this is probably depending on type of aircraft and/or FMS (A343 and Honeywell in our case).
 
wilco737
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 8:20 pm



Quoting GLEN (Reply 13):

We do not receive any warning message - but this is probably depending on type of aircraft and/or FMS (A343 and Honeywell in our case).

I have never received any message like that as well. The MD11F is somehow Boeing as well. but I checked the B744 manual and nothing of it in there as well.

wilco737
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 8:29 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 14):


Quoting GLEN (Reply 13):

We do not receive any warning message - but this is probably depending on type of aircraft and/or FMS (A343 and Honeywell in our case).

I have never received any message like that as well. The MD11F is somehow Boeing as well. but I checked the B744 manual and nothing of it in there as well.

From our Vol 1A

2 OPERATIONAL IMPACT
2.1 GPS updating of the FMS present position in airports of countries
still using the old geodetic datum, result in discrepancies similar
to map shift. During takeoff and initial SID tracking, the LNAV
track can be laterally displaced by about half of a nautical mile.
With LNAV armed, the LNAV capture after takeoff may result in
the Flight Director (and Auto Pilot) if engaged, commanding a
turn to capture the magenta track. This phenomenon has been
reported to have caused flights to violate SID requirements on
initial climb. Pilots should be aware that this can also occur in
departures and arrivals at airports of countries not using WGS-84
datum. An Incident Report should be filed when this
phenomenon occurs.
2.2 Pilots should use TOGA when the SID requires an initial course
or track to be flown. HDG SEL should be used when a runway
heading is required to be flown. Monitor and resume LNAV
when there is no apparent map shift.


Further info from Boeing

Document Effectivity: D6-30151-402(SIA)
Subject: Nuisance EICAS Caution Message >FMC RUNWAY DIS
Reason: To direct flight crews to disable GPS updating to prevent nuisance
display of the EICAS caution message >FMC RUNWAY DIS. Revised
THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURE AND/OR INFORMATION IS EFFECTIVE UPON RECEIPT
Information in this bulletin is recommended by The Boeing Company, but may not be FAA approved
at the time of writing. In the event of conflict with the FAA approved Airplane Flight Manual (AFM),
the AFM shall supersede. The Boeing Company regards the information or procedures described
herein as having a direct or indirect bearing on the safe operation of this model airplane.
to update Background Information.
Background Information
This bulletin applies to 9V-SFL and on, and airplanes modified by Boeing Service
Bulletin 747-31-2339.
The EICAS caution message >FMC RUNWAY DIS displays when the airplane
position or heading is not lined up within specified limits of the active FMC
departure runway and takeoff thrust is applied. GPS updating is required to enable
sensing of position errors; heading errors will trigger the message even if GPS
updating is disabled.
At certain airports not compliant with WGS-84 standards, the >FMC RUNWAY
DIS message may display when takeoff thrust is applied and the airplane is on the
active FMC departure runway. Under these conditions, the navigation database
runway position that is not compliant with WGS-84 differs from the GPS airplane
position enough to trigger display of the message.
Disabling GPS updating on the POS REF Page 2/3 (Line Select Key 5R) inhibits
position error sensing to preclude nuisance display of the >FMC RUNWAY DIS
message. The message will still display if a heading error is detected.

Operating Instructions
Disable GPS updating on the POS REF Page 2/3 before takeoff from airports not
compliant with WGS-84. Enable GPS on the POS REF Page 2/3 after takeoff.
Note: Operator will designate affected airports applicable to their operations.
 
DescendVia
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 10:43 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 12):
Funny, we have no prohibition on using VNAV in a NPA anyplace in the world. As long as you have a glide slope figure in the approach you are legal. In addition we have no restrictions on LNAV in those areas.

We can still do LNAV all over just not actually with VNAV for an approach, we have to use V/S.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 12):

I can guarantee you will see a runway disagree message!

Nothing about it in the ops page......

Here is the only thing from one of our FOMs

WGS-84 Geodetic Datum
Only Hong Kong and Macao have converted their air navigation coordinates to WGS-84
equivalence. At all other airports in the PRC, raw data procedures must be used for all
approaches. LNAV may be used to steer the airplane on a VOR or NDB approach. Use
raw data as the navigation reference. Approaches may need to be flown in Heading
Select.
It may be necessary to manually tune navigation facilities on the NAVRAD page to ensure
proper raw data guidance is being displayed

[Edited 2009-05-19 15:52:44]
 
DescendVia
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RE: Navigating Russia/structure Of Russian Airspace

Tue May 19, 2009 11:01 pm



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 15):



Quoting GLEN (Reply 13):

Just to get one thing across...... I'm not calling you guys wrong, as Phil has proven its there, I'm just going by what resources I got.

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