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readytotaxi
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Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:55 pm

Can someone pls say which route offers the longest down time for an aircraft, after landing before return. The longest period where it is not earning money. Is it the long hauls to the far east and australasia from the UK? something along those lines?
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jgarrido
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:18 pm

CMI 1 HNL-GUM comes in around 5:30pm and leaves at CMI 2 the next morning around 6:30am. Not sure how that compares to other long haul flights, but it would interesting to hear.
 
Mir
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:13 pm

IIRC, the North American carriers on the South America routes tend to have long turnarounds. They leave North America in the evening, arrive in South America in the morning, then sit all day before heading back to in the evening.

-Mir
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wilco737
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:21 pm

QF arrives at 5 am in FRA and doesn't leave until midnight. That is a pretty long time for a 744 sitting on the ground.

wilco737
 
roseflyer
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:32 pm

Icelandair arrives Orlando at 8:55pm and does not depart until the next day at 7pm. The ground time is 22 hrs 5 minutes.

KEF-SFB 5:10pm-8:55pm
SFB-KEF 7:00pm-6:10am
Ground time in SFB: 22:05

They will soon surpass that with the new SEA route that starts July 23rd. That will arrive 5:45pm and depart the next day at 4:30pm for a 22 hr 45min ground time.

KEF-SEA 5:00pm-5:45pm
SEA-KEF 4:30pm-6:45am
Ground time in SEA: 22:45

I believe this is because of their KEF hub and the timings to make the transfer to all the European cities since FI bases itself on transit passengers to continental Europe. Unfortunately Orlando and Seattle are too far for the model to work correctly.
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LHR27C
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:04 pm



Quoting Readytotaxi (Thread starter):
Is it the long hauls to the far east and australasia from the UK? something along those lines?

From the UK, the longest ones would possibly be UK-South Africa where the aircraft will arrive early morning and sit all day on the ground before leaving in the evening.
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delawareusa
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:46 am

CO ewr-hkg, spends 15-16 hours at hkg
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:00 am

QF's 747s/A380s sit a while in LAX. Around 12-14 hrs if I remember correctly.
Blue
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Viscount724
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:15 am

AC's YVR-HKG 777-300ER arrives HKG at 18:55. The return flight departs the next day at 12:50, meaning 17 hrs. 55. min. on the ground at HKG.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:15 pm

Many thanks for the responses, guess there is no way out of these long downtimes or the penny pincher's at HQ would have thought about it by now
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fca767
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:31 pm



Quoting Jgarrido (Reply 1):
CMI 1 HNL-GUM comes in around 5:30pm and leaves at CMI 2 the next morning around 6:30am. Not sure how that compares to other long haul flights, but it would interesting to hear

Would that just be the flight number rather than that actual plane?
But for the exact Registration Aircraft,
BA1503 Manchester to New York 767 had about 5 hours...spending more time than it does in manchester  Smile
 
borism
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:33 pm

I've always wondered why EK keeps B77W full day at MRU:

EK701 3:00AM-9:25AM
EK702 10:55PM-5:25AM

The flight itself is only 6.5 hours long!
 
dfwramper
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:52 am

The cargo guys like FedEx have a number of aircraft that come in Friday morning and don't depart again until Monday evening. DFW has 2 MD-10's and an A300 that do this, for example.
 
B777Neuss
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:55 pm



Quoting Borism (Reply 11):
I've always wondered why EK keeps B77W full day at MRU:

Same with DE FRA-SEZ-FRA. Arrival at SEZ is at 08:05am and they leave at 10:30pm the same evening. DE uses the same crew for both legs so I think it's the same with EK.
 
BWI757
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:39 pm



Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 9):
Many thanks for the responses, guess there is no way out of these long downtimes or the penny pincher's at HQ would have thought about it by now

Doesn't QF occasionally operate the odd cruise charter flight during their European layovers?

BWI757
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sq_ek_freak
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:01 pm



Quoting DelawareUSA (Reply 6):
CO ewr-hkg, spends 15-16 hours at hkg



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
AC's YVR-HKG 777-300ER arrives HKG at 18:55. The return flight departs the next day at 12:50, meaning 17 hrs. 55. min. on the ground at HKG.

See I don't understand as to why airlines do this, especially at ports like HKG. Why can't CO or AC have the aircraft continue on to a regional Asian destination, and even overnight at the other destination if airport fees are cheaper!? We all know NW and like maintain regional bases so that crew costs are cheaper, and having an aircraft flying around revenue passengers would sure as hell be more cost effective than having it sit at an airport like HKG overnight! Even a MNL (neither CO mainline or AC serve Manila, and could offer valuable connections out of East Coast USA which is totally lacking in MNL, and Canada which at the moment is only offered by PR to YVR), SIN or BKK flight out of HKG would not be a stretch!

Quoting B777Neuss (Reply 13):
Same with DE FRA-SEZ-FRA. Arrival at SEZ is at 08:05am and they leave at 10:30pm the same evening. DE uses the same crew for both legs so I think it's the same with EK.

That used to be the case, but with the flight deck crew submitting several ASR's about the flight and MRU as a destination being popular for crew in general, the layover was extended.
Keep Discovering
 
Viscount724
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:48 pm



Quoting Sq_ek_freak (Reply 15):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
AC's YVR-HKG 777-300ER arrives HKG at 18:55. The return flight departs the next day at 12:50, meaning 17 hrs. 55. min. on the ground at HKG.

See I don't understand as to why airlines do this, especially at ports like HKG. Why can't CO or AC have the aircraft continue on to a regional Asian destination, and even overnight at the other destination if airport fees are cheaper!? We all know NW and like maintain regional bases so that crew costs are cheaper, and having an aircraft flying around revenue passengers would sure as hell be more cost effective than having it sit at an airport like HKG overnight! Even a MNL (neither CO mainline or AC serve Manila, and could offer valuable connections out of East Coast USA which is totally lacking in MNL, and Canada which at the moment is only offered by PR to YVR), SIN or BKK flight out of HKG would not be a stretch!

Because those tag-on operations are very rarely profitable. The costs are almost always more than the additional revenue, and you of course require 5th freedom traffic rights on those sectors. You need another crew to operate a one or two hour flight in each direction and that's all they would be able to do that day.

When Canadian Airlines operated YVR-HKG before the merger with AC, they did exactly what you are suggesting. Rather than let the 747-400 sit in HKG for 18 hours, they extended the route to BKK and overnighted there. The revenue from the very low-yield traffic carried on the HKG-BKK-HKG sectors never covered the costs and they dropped the BKK tag-on after a year or two. Then they tried a tag-on to MNL with equally uneconomic results. There is just too much capacity on those routes for a 5th freedom operator to generate adequate yields, and fares on 5th freedom carriers are almost always the lowest on a route. And the through traffic MNL-Canada was almost all low-yield, and there are faster and more direct connecting routings on other carriers..

In many cases it just makes more sense to park the aircraft, although in many cases they arrange for maintenance work to be done during those long downtime turnarounds. You can't easily cut the turnaround time on many longhaul routes without adversely affecting connectivity at one or both ends of the route.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:09 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Because those tag-on operations are very rarely profitable.

 checkmark  The only profitable routes are ones with cargo. Just like QF and JFK. From what I've seen the loads are awful. But they keep that thing running because they can fill that sucker up with plenty of cargo.
Blue
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ZK-NBT
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:53 am

At AKL there aren't any carriers that sit from early am to late pm except for some NZ 744s and 772s.

There are several DJ and QF International flights that overnight in AKL but then the DJ and QF 737s are based here in NZ. QF26/25 LAX-AKL-LAX arrives in AKL at 0730 departs at 1435 so the 744 spends 7 hours in AKL I think thats about the longest long haul flight that does it other than the 3 EK flights which arrive close together in the early afternoon and depart close together in the early evening. I can't think of any others that do long turns in AKL anymore. KE and UA used to.

EK406 STA 1245 EK407 STD 1745 Daily A345 DXB-MEL-AKL-MEL-DXB
EK412 STA 1250 EK413 STD 1800 Daily A380 DXB-SYD-AKL-SYD-DXB
EK434 STA 1335 EK435 STD 1715 Daily A345 DXB-BNE-AKL-BNE-DXB

Some of the SQ, MH and EK flights into SYD and MEL sit for 8/10 hours in those ports after arriving at 6-7am they depart at 3-4pm.
 
sq_ek_freak
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:12 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Because those tag-on operations are very rarely profitable. The costs are almost always more than the additional revenue, and you of course require 5th freedom traffic rights on those sectors. You need another crew to operate a one or two hour flight in each direction and that's all they would be able to do that day.

When Canadian Airlines operated YVR-HKG before the merger with AC, they did exactly what you are suggesting. Rather than let the 747-400 sit in HKG for 18 hours, they extended the route to BKK and overnighted there. The revenue from the very low-yield traffic carried on the HKG-BKK-HKG sectors never covered the costs and they dropped the BKK tag-on after a year or two. Then they tried a tag-on to MNL with equally uneconomic results. There is just too much capacity on those routes for a 5th freedom operator to generate adequate yields, and fares on 5th freedom carriers are almost always the lowest on a route. And the through traffic MNL-Canada was almost all low-yield, and there are faster and more direct connecting routings on other carriers..

In many cases it just makes more sense to park the aircraft, although in many cases they arrange for maintenance work to be done during those long downtime turnarounds. You can't easily cut the turnaround time on many longhaul routes without adversely affecting connectivity at one or both ends of the route.

Gotcha - I suppose that's why we saw all those airlines operating the MNL tag on from HKG discontinue their services - CP, BA, AZ, AF, SR, EK and more recently LH from BKK and later CAN then later ICN. Now only KL is left and they operate non stop. Even the BKK-SIN tag on flights are slowly disappearing, with both LX and SK out of the picture. LH still does tag on flights to Jakarta and Ho Chi Minh city, and KL to CGK and AF to HAN and SGN (all out of Bangkok I believe with the exception of KL which is out of KUL). United does a lot of tag on flying though, but I suppose that's different because it's from their hubs in NRT and HKG (same can be said for DL/NW out of NRT).

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 17):
From what I've seen the loads are awful.

Bear in mind that this flight in particular has poor loads because of the inability for QF to carry pax between JFK and LAX.
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LH526
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RE: Longest "downtime" On A Route.

Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:34 am

Many south american routes served by north american carriers also conclude in long downtimes. SCL and GRU spring to mind where a plane arrives in the early morning and leaves later that night, so 10-18hrs of downtime is not uncommon. In the 1990s COPA had a 20hrs downtime in SCL while fiyng there with B732.
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